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Old 03-28-2012, 02:28 PM    (permalink
Scotty D
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
no, it didn't. the owners voted 29-0 against. the reasons are irrelevant. they were near unanimous.
So the reason something happened is irrelevant.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Actually all unused cap space IS rolled over into the following year.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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So the reason something happened is irrelevant.
In this context... yes. He made a statement that it was a rogue commisioner. I made the statement that the league voted 29-0 to support the commisioner.

That is not a rogue commisioner, that is a commisioner with full support. Even if the vote passed 15-14, that is not a rouge commisioner.

The only way you get a rogue commisioner is if he did something the entire league didn't support.

I see your reasoning that no one would have voted against Goodell. It doesn't matter why they didn't vote against him, only that they didn't.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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Actually all unused cap space IS rolled over into the following year.
Then the Bengals would have 200 million of cap spaced dollars.

If the cap last year was set at 119, and then you use 110, that remaining 9 doesn't roll over. Fluxing with the contract numbers and cutting guys and the cap rising is what gets you space.


For the next years in the new CBA there is something like that, but its if you don't meet the floor min this year, it will roll over next year so you have to meet the floor as it will be added on. spend 112 of the 115 you have to spend, next year the floor is 116, plus the 3 left over from the year before.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jughead10 View Post
Agreed. But Schaub for instance. His salary was so high because of what looks like a 10 million dollar roster bonus. However if that bonus was put in his contract in 2007, then it is completely irrelevant.
Lot of the guys have MISC bonuses which is shady, but Schaub might have hit a contract escalator since he posted career highs in 2009.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Also what site did you get all that info?
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Old 03-28-2012, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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I think that some of you guys are partially misunderstanding what the NFL is saying. Front-loading contracts, even in an uncapped year, isn't what they're taking issue with. The Cowboys and Redskins were punished for spending approximately $21 Million ahd $33 Million more than the third highest-spending team.

Now, I agree that penalizing somebody for violating the "presumed" salary cap by $40 Million dollars during an "uncapped" year is horseshit. One third of the league, by my count, "violated" what would have been the salary cap. When you look at the cap numbers, it also looks like there was an unofficial "salary cap" of $145 Million (which is collusion in any industry other than, for some reason, major league sports). But the fact that the Cowboys and Redskins "violated" that handshake agreement is the primary reason that they're being punished.

So pointing out that the Packers "salary dumped" with Pickett, Williams, and Jennings misses the point and weakens the argument (and yes, the Packers totally planned for an took advantage of the uncapped year: that's why "Tightwad" Ted Thompson stayed $10+ Million under the cap for the several prior seasons). Front-loaded contracts and "salary dumping" are a strawman.

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Old 03-28-2012, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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Doesn't the league's Anti-trust exemption protect it from anything it does being considered collusion?
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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Doesn't the league's Anti-trust exemption protect it from anything it does being considered collusion?
I have no ******* clue, to be honest. If my understanding is correct (and it's probably wrong, because I'm not a lawyer), then the salary cap would typically be an anti-trust violation. Given the exemption, however, the two unions (the NFL and the NFLPA) are allowed to engage in collective bargaining and agree upon a salary cap. Because the salary cap was part of the collective bargaining agreement negotiated and agreed upon by the two sides, it's exempt from being counted as collusion. That much is pretty clear to me.

When it comes to a "handshake" salary cap during an uncapped year, I have no idea if that could lead to problems in regards to collusion. I'm assuming the the NFL's lawyers figured this out long before the punishments were handed down. Either way, it would probably take the NFLPA speaking out before a legal case would go anywhere (again, I'm not even close to being a lawyer and this all just a wild ass guess based on knowing how to use google -- ie: I don't know ****).

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Old 03-28-2012, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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Then the Bengals would have 200 million of cap spaced dollars.

If the cap last year was set at 119, and then you use 110, that remaining 9 doesn't roll over. Fluxing with the contract numbers and cutting guys and the cap rising is what gets you space.


For the next years in the new CBA there is something like that, but its if you don't meet the floor min this year, it will roll over next year so you have to meet the floor as it will be added on. spend 112 of the 115 you have to spend, next year the floor is 116, plus the 3 left over from the year before.
Yes it does. There is also a cap floor that each team MUST meet. Get your facts straight.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:10 PM    (permalink
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Yes it does. There is also a cap floor that each team MUST meet. Get your facts straight.
the current floor is super low, and it barley rolls over, the new CBA rules which are going to go in effect next year will be what I think you are talking about.

If I am wrong can you please show me?
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post


no, they tried to competitively unbalance the salary cap structure (on the assumption that it would be back) by front-loading their contracts into a year it didn't matter. whether you think that's totally ok, or you think that deserves some penalty is up for discussion. but that they did it, and that it was anti-competitive is hardly up for debate, no matter what the rules may have said.



no, for the reasons outlined above. those aren't difficult scenarios to understand.

It's absolutely up for debate. How was it anti-competitive? I doubt you can give me one solid reason how.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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serious question, but are you blind? it was in the bloody quote and it's all over this page.

I'm on an iphone, please reiterate.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:55 PM    (permalink
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I have no ******* clue, to be honest. If my understanding is correct (and it's probably wrong, because I'm not a lawyer), then the salary cap would typically be an anti-trust violation. Given the exemption, however, the two unions (the NFL and the NFLPA) are allowed to engage in collective bargaining and agree upon a salary cap. Because the salary cap was part of the collective bargaining agreement negotiated and agreed upon by the two sides, it's exempt from being counted as collusion. That much is pretty clear to me.

When it comes to a "handshake" salary cap during an uncapped year, I have no idea if that could lead to problems in regards to collusion. I'm assuming the the NFL's lawyers figured this out long before the punishments were handed down. Either way, it would probably take the NFLPA speaking out before a legal case would go anywhere (again, I'm not even close to being a lawyer and this all just a wild ass guess based on knowing how to use google -- ie: I don't know ****).
That to me is the big thing, I don't see how the NFL could let things get this ugly if there's really this much risk on the table. Especially since the NFLPA seems to be with the league on this and if the NFLPA and league agree on this.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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The term 'anti-competitive' is a meaningless platitude used by Goodell and the owners to make up crap as they go along.
It's right up there on the BS scale with Goodell saying the Skins/Cowboys violated the 'spirit of the salary cap'.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:02 PM    (permalink
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The term 'anti-competitive' is a meaningless platitude used by Goodell and the owners to make up crap as they go along.
It's right up there on the BS scale with Goodell saying the Skins/Cowboys violated the 'spirit of the salary cap'.
I disagree. They did violate the "spirit of the salary cap" regardless of if they were warned to or not. Taking advantage of the uncapped season to artificially deflate their cap numbers for future capped seasons is clearly trying to violate the spirit of the salary cap. Kudos to them if they get away with it, but if the league warned them not to and they still did, well then they don't really have much to ***** about when they get punished, kinda like the Saints and their bounties, once the league tells you to cut it out and you don't, I have little sympathy for any punishments handed down.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 03-29-2012, 07:35 AM    (permalink
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I disagree. They did violate the "spirit of the salary cap" regardless of if they were warned to or not. Taking advantage of the uncapped season to artificially deflate their cap numbers for future capped seasons is clearly trying to violate the spirit of the salary cap. Kudos to them if they get away with it, but if the league warned them not to and they still did, well then they don't really have much to ***** about when they get punished, kinda like the Saints and their bounties, once the league tells you to cut it out and you don't, I have little sympathy for any punishments handed down.
That's great if Rog wants to be all "look at me I'm a hardass" and punish teams but if you do it it has to be done to all the teams who did it. How do you draw the line at Washington and Dallas? You can't honestly say that the other teams who gave huge bonus or front loaded contracts that year were doing it for any other reason the the financial benefit of being in an uncapped year. But any idiot can figure out how or where you draw the line. Start with the guy coming up with the punishments does so the two teams in the same division. Nope, nothing to see here. Move along!
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Old 03-29-2012, 07:49 AM    (permalink
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But how do you go 50 million over?
Bad contracts.
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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That's great if Rog wants to be all "look at me I'm a hardass" and punish teams but if you do it it has to be done to all the teams who did it. How do you draw the line at Washington and Dallas? You can't honestly say that the other teams who gave huge bonus or front loaded contracts that year were doing it for any other reason the the financial benefit of being in an uncapped year. But any idiot can figure out how or where you draw the line. Start with the guy coming up with the punishments does so the two teams in the same division. Nope, nothing to see here. Move along!
They were by far the most egregious offenders and Godell has always been an inconsistent punisher who makes example of the highest profile violators to discourage the lesser violators. If you want to make the case that other teams that restructured contracts with players to take advantag of the uncapped season should also face a penalty I wouldn't disagree, but the Bears are the third worst offenders and they only have the one Julius Peppers contract that he signed as a free agent, which doesn't look as bad as re-structurings.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

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Old 03-29-2012, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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Yes it does. There is also a cap floor that each team MUST meet. Get your facts straight.
For 2011 and 2012 there is NO floor for individual clubs but the league as a whole was committed to spending 99% of the cap.

Unused cap space for 2011 and 2012 can be used in the following year.

Starting in 2013, the cap floor for individual teams is 89% and the league as a whole is committed to spending 95% of the cap.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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For 2011 and 2012 there is NO floor for individual clubs but the league as a whole was committed to spending 99% of the cap.

Unused cap space for 2011 and 2012 can be used in the following year.

Starting in 2013, the cap floor for individual teams is 89% and the league as a whole is committed to spending 95% of the cap.

I read the floor started with the instance of the new CBA. When did they determine that it would start in 2013?
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Thanks for the correction. It does indeed start in 2013, I thought it started this year. The fact still stands that there is still a mandatory spending limit which means there is also a cap floor and that stands at 99% for this league year (so really there would be no carry over regardless). It then drops to 95% and then 89% where the money not spent can be rolled over. Either way my statement stands as valid so whoever neg repped me for being inaccurate can get bent.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/9/5/2...fresher-course

Salary cap and floor (article 12 section 8 & 9): This one in particular causes some confusion as it is split into different periods. For the league years 2011 and 2012, there is a hard salary cap but no per-team salary floor. Instead, league-wide cash spending must be 99% of the total cap. If the NFL falls below that amount, the shortfall will be paid out by September 15 following each season. That is to say, on or before September 15th the players that were on the teams' rosters during that year shall be paid directly according to allocation numbers determined by the NFLPA.

Then, for the periods 2013-2016 and 2017-2020, the league-wide cash spending commitment drops to 95%, but a per-team cash commitment is put into place of 89%. For both these periods, the cash commitment is calculated at the end of each 4-year period, not at the end of each league year. This means that if you're below the 89% cash floor one year, you can spend a little more the next to make up for it. If you still don't make the floor over the entire period, the team pays out its players directly, again through allocation numbers determined by the NFLPA.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...automatically/

Under Article 13, Section 6(b)(v) of the CBA, each team may carry over any remaining cap room from one year to the next by submitting written notice, signed by the owner of the team, to the league office no later than 14 days before the start of the next league year. The written notice must indicate the maximum amount of cap room that the team wishes to shift from one cap year to the next.

Last edited by jsagan77 : 03-29-2012 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 03-30-2012, 07:13 AM    (permalink
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However what you fail to understand (and why I neg repped you) is right in what you posted there. It is a hard cap. Meaning it doesn't move. This was the case with the last CBA. I know some teams have been able to "roll over", if you will their cap these past two season, but its never anything major, because that amount added during a year is then taken away the next year. (Or in the case of the 'skins and 'boys, two seasons due to their enormous overage).

Owners have submitted these things before, but in most cases, they would and should be denied. This is why the 49ers went to **** in the late 90s. They paid all their main guys and went way over the cap, and were then penalized for it the following years. But you can't just shift around and say, as a team that " Well, I was 20 mil under the cap this year, so now I'll be able to go 19.9 over the cap next year." No. It doesn't work that way. You are wrong.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglesalltheway View Post
However what you fail to understand (and why I neg repped you) is right in what you posted there. It is a hard cap. Meaning it doesn't move. This was the case with the last CBA. I know some teams have been able to "roll over", if you will their cap these past two season, but its never anything major, because that amount added during a year is then taken away the next year. (Or in the case of the 'skins and 'boys, two seasons due to their enormous overage).

Owners have submitted these things before, but in most cases, they would and should be denied. This is why the 49ers went to **** in the late 90s. They paid all their main guys and went way over the cap, and were then penalized for it the following years. But you can't just shift around and say, as a team that " Well, I was 20 mil under the cap this year, so now I'll be able to go 19.9 over the cap next year." No. It doesn't work that way. You are wrong.

This is not a hard cap. It does go up every year and will continue to do so. For instance next year the New tv contracts are helping inflate the cap. And you will be able to spend 95% of the cap and roll over the other 5% the following year. Thats whats in the new CBA. Why are you talking about the old one?
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...headline_stack

Quote:
Special master Stephen Burbank has granted the NFL's motion to dismiss the grievance filed by the Dallas Cowboys and the Washington Redskins regarding the salary cap situation that occurred during the league's uncapped year, league counsel Jeff Pash said in Atlanta on Tuesday.

This means the league’s decision to impose a $36 million salary cap reduction over two years on the Redskins, as well as a $10 million cap reduction over two years for the Cowboys, will be upheld. Those reductions were the result of the way both teams structured player contracts when the NFL was working without a salary cap in 2010.
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