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Old 03-30-2012, 11:36 AM    (permalink
Scotty D
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Yeah, Asante isn't a man guy and he doesn't tackle well. That is the two main things the Lions are looking for in a cornerback. Plus they would be paying him like Brandon Carr and Cortland Finnegan the next two years He would be better than our #2 and #3 CBs in Aaron Berry and Jacob Lacy though.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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As somebody who has seen Deltha O'Neal and Asante Samuel on my team at one point, I have to say that comparison is truly terrible. Asante >>>>>>>> Deltha O'Neal. Asante for all his faults is a great zone cornerback, and has the best ball skills of any DB outside of Woodson, Revis, and Reed. He gets so much hate because he sucks at tackling that he is actually underrated.
No, he doesn't. He just plays in front of his man so every pass that is even remotely underthrown is right in his face and it looks like he's making a great play on it, but he's actually giving up space over top that gets taken advantage of by good QBs. You're correct in saying that his ball skills are the best part of his game, but that's not saying all that much with everything else considered. He's really overrated and really overpaid, I certainly wouldn't give up a third rounder for him.

EDIT: God dammit njx, you're too fast.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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No, he doesn't. He just plays in front of his man so every pass that is even remotely underthrown is right in his face and it looks like he's making a great play on it, but he's actually giving up space over top that gets taken advantage of by good QBs. You're correct in saying that his ball skills are the best part of his game, but that's not saying all that much with everything else considered. He's really overrated and really overpaid, I certainly wouldn't give up a third rounder for him.

EDIT: God dammit njx, you're too fast.
That's what she said.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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are you sure you've actually watched him, and aren't just making things up? because the bold is absolutely, utterly and completely untrue. further, i sincerely doubt you were watching deltha circa 2001, and thus are completely unqualified to have any opinion about him as a football player in terms of my comparison.
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No, he doesn't. He just plays in front of his man so every pass that is even remotely underthrown is right in his face and it looks like he's making a great play on it, but he's actually giving up space over top that gets taken advantage of by good QBs. You're correct in saying that his ball skills are the best part of his game, but that's not saying all that much with everything else considered. He's really overrated and really overpaid, I certainly wouldn't give up a third rounder for him.

EDIT: God dammit njx, you're too fast.
I guarantee you I've watched him far more often than either of you combined. If you go back to his Patriots days you'd know that his interceptions were mostly him jumping slant routes and curls to the sidelines. He can move laterally better than most other CB's and his closing speed and vision are elite. You're basing your opinion off seeing highlights of him with the Eagles playing man and picking off underthrown balls on deep posts, without actually ever watching him play zone and reading QB's before they throw the ball. Also, I assume you think he's just lucky, but it's certainly not a coincidence that he consistently picks off 6-10 passes a year. Also, you say that good QB's can take advantage of him, but Samuel has a pretty good track record against good QB's, especially 2 guys like the Mannings who have great arms and are considered pretty cerebral.

You need to take PFF with a grain of salt, but his target to completion percentage is very low and he usually grades out among the highest of NFL corners, and allows one of the lowest YPC of any corner in the league.

Consider that most teams have terrible CB situations anyways. Samuel regardless of how you rate him, is among the better CB's in the NFL. If you can get him for a conditional third and a restructured contract, you've made a pretty good deal for your team. He's not going to cost you anywhere near what the inflated free agent market paid guys like Finnegan, Wright, and Carr.

I really have no reason to like Asante seeing as how he dropped the biggest potential play of his life, and kind of was a dick to the entire organization, but on this board he's a guy who really gets crapped on for reasons that have little substance behind them.

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Old 03-30-2012, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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I really don't want Asante, although he could probably bait the young QBs in the division for some easy picks
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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I really don't want Asante, although he could probably bait the young QBs in the division for some easy picks
Psh. Gabbert doesn't look down the field long enough to even throw picks.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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i watched every single game he played in new england. he was *never* more than a 2001-era deltha o'neal. the vast majority of his ints there were simply not the result of him making a play. much like o'neal, they were a result of poor passes into the numbers of an out of position DB. granted, he still had to catch the ball, i guess.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but keep in mind that like me your bias is pretty strong. You're perspective on what he did is very different from mine, but from somebody who has seen an abundance of bad CB play in the past few years it's painfully obvious that Asante is miles better than anyone else the Patriots have had since Ty Law. I've seen every game he played with the Pats and most of what he's done with the Eagles, and I've seen him make some incredible breaks on the ball. Did he get lucky on some? Certainly, but you could say that about any of the guys I mentioned before. A guy who has 53 career interceptions (reg & post-season) probably doesn't mean he's making plays by accident.

You can say he's lucky or whatever, but what I know is that I'll take the lucky guy that is consistently getting my team turnovers while allowing a low YPC and completion percentage, over the guy who (supposedly) is playing well but isn't producing.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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You guys are selling Asante way too short. He was the best CB on the Eagles for the past 2 years. Yes, better than overrated Nmandi.

Asante's man coverage skills are actually very good, he doesn't get enough credit there. He just sucks at press man, but he can stick his guys in man coverage very well. He's probably the best Cover 2 CB in the league, nobody in the league is better at playing the underneath zones and baiting qbs into INTs.

He's susceptible to double moves in man coverage, but he also makes up for it with his INTs, which at the end of the day, do factor into his overall body of work. And his susceptibility to giving up big plays has decreased dramatically the past 2 years. He doesn't gamble as much as he used to.

Can he tackle? No. Can he play press? No. But he's one of the best off coverage CBs in the league, and he's actually become underrated bc there's a perception that he gambles too much which isn't entirely accurate anymore. It used to be accurate, but he's really improved in that area over the past 2 years.

I personally would love to see him off the Eagles. In my eyes he's their best CB and he always made killer plays against us. He's the only player in their secondary that I fear. He does very well vs Eli. Eli gets him just as much as he gets Eli, but he still has a good success rate vs Eli.

Without him, that secondary loses their only playmaker, and they're left with 2 overrated man coverage CBs in Nmandi and DRC, and mediocre safeties. I like that.

I think Philly is stupid for letting him go if they do. You need 3 good CBs in today's NFL and they're going to move on from their best one bc he is 31 and makes 10 million. If they are serious about making a title run, you gotta keep Asante.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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Asante was only better than Nnamdi last year because Philly opted to play the worst scheme for their defensive talent I've ever seen. Nnamdi being moved around and put into zones? What the ****? Did they even research him as a player before signing him?

If some other team is willing to give the Eagles a 3rd rounder to take a $9.9 million chance on a gambling corner who doesn't tackle and fits only certain defenses, it's a good move for the Eagles.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Asante was only better than Nnamdi last year because Philly opted to play the worst scheme for their defensive talent I've ever seen. Nnamdi being moved around and put into zones? What the ****? Did they even research him as a player before signing him?

If some other team is willing to give the Eagles a 3rd rounder to take a $9.9 million chance on a gambling corner who doesn't tackle and fits only certain defenses, it's a good move for the Eagles.
That's not entirely true either. Nmandi played plenty of man coverage as well. He just got beat.

He got beat by Dez in man. He got beat by Cruz in man. Cruz owned him last year. He owned him so bad the first time, Nmandi asked to be on Cruz in man coverage for pretty much the whole game in the 2nd game, and Cruz still torched him.

Nmandi just isn't as good as he was advertised. He played in the AFC West, where there's basically 1 good WR and 1 good qb to go against. Plus half his games were blacked out plus he only played 1 side of the field so teams just put their best WR on the other side.

But he developed this reputation that spread like wildfire when it wasn't justified.

And if you truly are the 2nd best CB in the league like Nmandi is supposed to be, then you should be able to play both man and zone, and able to play on both sides of the field.

If you're only good for man coverage on one side of the field, how are you the 2nd best CB in the league? You're not. He's overrated.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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I'm not calling Nnamdi underrated or even properly rated, but I'd still gladly take him over Asante. I just hate corners like Asante who are about twice as likely to give up a big play due to their gambling as they are to make one.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Don't want to bring up more Eagles talk than already is here, but Jason Peters ruptured his achilles. You think this puts the Eagles in a likely scenario to try to get a FA Tackle?

There aren't too many Tackles left in FA that fit well into the Eagles O-linemen, but I wouldn't mind the team looking into Demetrius Bell...
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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I'm not calling Nnamdi underrated or even properly rated, but I'd still gladly take him over Asante. I just hate corners like Asante who are about twice as likely to give up a big play due to their gambling as they are to make one.
Except he doesn't really give up a bunch of big plays. This is what people are missing out of the whole debate. There is a weird correlation that gets applied to Samuel that his interceptions somehow lead to him allowing a ton of big plays which really isn't, nor has ever been that true. The past couple of seasons he's had the one of the lowest QB ratings against, the lowest completion %'s against, and the lowest YPC against in the league. In those categories he's alongside guys like Revis, Haden, Gamble, Webb, Taylor, Grimes, and Rogers who most agree are pretty damn good.

He has one obvious and somewhat inexcusable flaw and is a bit undersized but everybody acts like he's JAG on this board, despite his body of work and the fact that he's pretty respected around the league.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Don't want to bring up more Eagles talk than already is here, but Jason Peters ruptured his achilles. You think this puts the Eagles in a likely scenario to try to get a FA Tackle?

There aren't too many Tackles left in FA that fit well into the Eagles O-linemen, but I wouldn't mind the team looking into Demetrius Bell...
I actually said that same thing in another thread. Bell might not be a bad investment. They should also look at Marcus McNeil.

Achilles injuries tend to be pretty devastating and often never heal fully. And they need a better backup plan than King Dunlap.

I'd also keep an eye on any of the top LTs who make it to the Eagles pick.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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I will say, I've watched every Eagles game except one over the entire time he's been with the Eagles, he struggled giving up the big play at first when he got here. And that caused me (and Sniper) to pretty much hate him for a whole. Then he decided he was actually going to cover, and for the past two seasons, he drastically limited the amount of big plays he gave up. Anyone who is going to sit here and try to tell me all he does is miss tackles, give up bombs, and catch INTs is ********. The guy does miss tackles, does pick off the QB (and doesn't just luck into it, njx, you're way off base here), but also has improved his overall game, except for tackling.

That being said, he is 31, reaching the age where CBs begin to slow down, and doesn't fit what the Eagles want out of their CBs. A conditional third round pick seems fair. You're getting one of the top zone CBs in the NFL, however, he is aging. A conditional third round pick would make sense.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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I actually said that same thing in another thread. Bell might not be a bad investment. They should also look at Marcus McNeil.

Achilles injuries tend to be pretty devastating and often never heal fully. And they need a better backup plan than King Dunlap.

I'd also keep an eye on any of the top LTs who make it to the Eagles pick.
I personally like McNeil, but he wouldn't necessarily be the best fit. He has never been known for his athleticism, and IIRC, he just had a knee injury? I don't think it was major, but still, something to consider.

I was thinking about the draft too, was going to save that for another thread, but yeah I do think its a possibility. I was thinking OL may still be a possibility early either way, and we have Linemen that can be shifted, so a guy like Glenn or Reiff (if available) wouldn't be out of the question, depending on the situation...
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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Glenn would fit the Eagles o-line requirement of "being fatter than Andy Reid" but I would get a good laugh out of him going at 15.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Glenn would fit the Eagles o-line requirement of "being fatter than Andy Reid" but I would get a good laugh out of him going at 15.
It'd take a lot of other targets, and no trading partner for them to trade down with, but I would understand it if it were the case. That being said, I'd rather wait to get him.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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Jason Peters was arguably the best LT in the league last year. He was a beast. That's a huge blow.

Good luck stopping JPP, Ware, and Rak with King Dunlap. They better sign or draft somebody.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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The Steelers are hosting Demetrius Bell today. That's interesting. I wonder if he'll sign with the Steelers though I'm sure he'd play RT in Pittsburgh since Gilbert is moving to LT.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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i believe i'd mentioned that my opinion almost entirely came from him in new england, and that i hadn't seen many eagles games since he'd moved. so it wouldn't surprise me to be wrong about him there. but coming off the patriots, i do not believe he was anything better than a deltha and will maintain that he was highly overrated based on his stat sheet.

though i'd be curious: if nnamdi really was that bad, how much of asante looking better was a result of teams targeting away from him? i know there've been seasons where champ looked dramatically better than he was actually playing because of the dog **** we were playing on the other side of the field. *shrug*
Yeah, I saw that, just wanted to bring that to people's attention, that he has done a better job of limiting the big plays he gives up.

As for your second part... I really don't think it factored in all that much. I don't have stats readily available, but I'd imagine his stats aren't too much different last year than from two years ago, before Nnamdi was brought in. It wasn't just Nnamdi coming in that made Asante play better, he has been playing at a very high level the past two seasons.
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Old 03-30-2012, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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Bruce Campbell gets traded for Mike Goodson. I will fondly remember Bruce as the guy everyone mocked to the Raiders at 8 even though no one would touch him in the first 3 rounds.
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Old 03-30-2012, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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Bruce Campbell gets traded for Mike Goodson. I will fondly remember Bruce as the guy everyone mocked to the Raiders at 8 even though no one would touch him in the first 3 rounds.
You gotta watch that "everyone." It may have been a fun thing to joke about, but the number of people who seriously believed something like that could happen was extremely low.
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Old 03-30-2012, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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You gotta watch that "everyone." It may have been a fun thing to joke about, but the number of people who seriously believed something like that could happen was extremely low.
It was pretty high for a while. At least until the process started knocking him down in the rankings.

I like this trade for Carolina. I'd rather take a shot at Campbell than a employ a fourth string RB.
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Old 03-30-2012, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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I do remember a lot of mocks putting Bruce there. I wasn't active on DC so I have no idea about here.
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