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Old 04-10-2012, 10:26 PM    (permalink
scottyboy
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cox fits perfectly being a pass rushing DT from the UT spot in a 4-3 defense. He could be a 5-tech but it wouldnt best suit his talents.

plus, him and Justin Smith are such outrageously different players it's silly
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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Everyone that thinks Justin Smith relies solely on raw power needs to watch more 49ers games.
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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Everyone that thinks Justin Smith relies solely on raw power needs to watch more 49ers games.
he doesn't, which also is why he's the top 3-4 DE in the league, and arguably the top DE in the league. We get it, you have him on your team, but he's not even close to the same player Fletcher Cox is and has really no business being brought up with him. Fletcher gets by mainly on his quickness and footwork and doesn't have the raw power that Smith has, which is mainly why many in this thread feel Cox would excel being in a 4-3 where his skills would be best utilized.
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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he doesn't, which also is why he's the top 3-4 DE in the league, and arguably the top DE in the league. We get it, you have him on your team, but he's not even close to the same player Fletcher Cox is and has really no business being brought up with him. Fletcher gets by mainly on his quickness and footwork and doesn't have the raw power that Smith has, which is mainly why many in this thread feel Cox would excel being in a 4-3 where his skills would be best utilized.
It's closed-minded to make any assumption that my Justin Smith comment has anything to do with him being a 49er or the same prospect as Fletcher Cox.

My argument doesn't consider "where Cox's talents are best utilized." It's simply a comment towards how highly I feel of him. Smith was not considered a natural fit in the 3-4 and many questioned whether he was a terrible waste as a potential 3-4 OLB in Mike Nolan's system.

I feel that Fletcher Cox has a skill set that could dominate as a 3-4 DE in both rush defense and pass rush, just as Justin Smith has become. That's the comparison.
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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they're just 2 completely different players. Cox gets by on his footwork and speed whereas Justin Smith's biggest strength is just that, his strength, which is why he was able to transition so well.

and the justin smith/49er thing was more towards the "if you think Smith gets by on raw power, watch more niner games" which is the absolute worst and over-played argument that anyone has ever used, ever.
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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and the justin smith/49er thing was more towards the "if you think Smith gets by on raw power, watch more niner games" which is the absolute worst and over-played argument that anyone has ever used, ever.
If it's fact it cannot be a poor argument. My apologies for not posting about a Rutgers player Scotty.

I feel that Fletcher Cox can be a dominant 3-4 DE. I don't feel he has the raw power of Justin Smith. It doesn't change my argument.

If I'm wrong down, the road, I'm wrong. But I feel he can be a great fit.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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Cox is quick but what makes me like him is that power is in his game as well.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:49 PM    (permalink
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I guess their games are a bit different, Cox relies more on explosiveness where Smith's is more about strength at the point, but I can certainly see some stylistics similarities between the two. When I first watched Cox knowing little to nothing about him, Smith was actually the first guy I thought of because of their similar movement and body types.
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:50 AM    (permalink
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The only two gap teams are:

Fairbanks-Bullough system

Kansas City
New England (when they go 3-4 base - used it a lot in the second half of the Super Bowl for example - but they do seem to be going away from it)

Very tough to find two gap DE's - big, strong and long arms - plus a little bit of football intelligence to be able to find the football. Brockers has the potential to be a monster two gap DE.

Hybrid

New York Jets (sort of - the NT and DT most often one gap - the weakside DE (Mo Wilkerson) two gaps)
Baltimore (pretty much the same deal as the Jets)

The hybrid is basically a 4-3 with the strongside DE standing up as an OLB - the Ravens have had that guy with his hand in the dirt more since Rex Ryan left. The basic idea though is to make Ray Lewis a 3-4 ILB so he only has to cover half the field. The original creator of this system was Mike Nolan and he's now in Atlanta, so they could possibly use this system (if Mike Peterson was to return it would help him).

The Bum Phillips 3-4 is a one gap - run by Houston, San Diego and Dallas. Rob Ryan has run a Fairbanks-Bullough system in the past, but due to personnel he's stuck with Phillips one gap (Ratliff at NT would not work in a two gap, you need a big space eater like Josh Chapman).

The other 3-4 system is the Steelers type zone blitz - still a one gap system, but the lineman line up a little differently (line up much as the two gap - but they slant one way into the gap). They tend to prefer slightly bigger guys, but still with athletic ability. Steelers, Packers, Cardinals, 49ers and Redskins run this.

Of course, nickel defense is used more than base these days so whatever you are running, you still need athletic guys like Cox who can rush the passer be that from 3 or 5 technique. But in terms of pure base defense, I think Cox best fits the Bum Phillips one gap system. I would say this more than a 4-3 as he plays a bit high at times.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:33 AM    (permalink
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Tell Justin Smith that Fletcher Cox would be "wasting his talent" as a 3-4 DE.
I came in here to say this
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Old 04-11-2012, 06:15 AM    (permalink
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Mmmmmmmm.... I think they're two totally different players. Smith is one that uses raw power to get to the QB... Cox had speed and foot movement to get there.
The argument is not "Fletcher Cox is just like Justin Smith" it's "Fletcher Cox would not be toiling in anonymity, unable to make an impact on games if he goes to a 3-4 team. 5-technique defensive ends on 3-4 teams can be impact players: look at Justin Smith, for example."

If he is drafted by a 3-4 team, whether the 3-4 team molds the scheme to make the best use of his talents remains to be seen, but that's also true about a 4-3 team drafting him. Teams don't always make the best use of their talent.
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Old 04-11-2012, 06:26 AM    (permalink
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Dorsey getting force fit into a 3-4 was a travesty. Hopefully, Cox doesn't suffer the same fate.
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Old 04-11-2012, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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Dorsey getting force fit into a 3-4 was a travesty. Hopefully, Cox doesn't suffer the same fate.
Dorsey played a lot better in KC after they switched to the 3-4 than when they were running a 4-3. I'm not sure where the travesty is, beyond "Dorsey isn't as good as we thought he was when he was drafted."
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Old 04-11-2012, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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i do agree... yet he would be very sucessful in an arizona or a houston for that matter... looking at calias campbell/dockett or JJ watt for that matter these dudes penetrate because these systems dont rely on flow reads as a NE or a SD does. in a pressure system they do not have to key off of the offensive linemen as much this is where younger less experienced 5-techs can suceed and u dont have to develope a richard seymour or luis castillo.

note that NE has changed it system in the past few years due to losses of prominent 5-techs (richard seymour and ty warren)

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Old 04-11-2012, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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Dorsey played a lot better in KC after they switched to the 3-4 than when they were running a 4-3. I'm not sure where the travesty is, beyond "Dorsey isn't as good as we thought he was when he was drafted."
I disagree with you on this one. Dorsey's only year in a 4/3 was his rookie season. Now I know he didn't come out of the gates like Suh did, but he wasn't a flop as well. Plus his D Line mates were not a very good bunch. Hold on, hold on... I know you you were already going for the whole he played with Tamba Hail thing, well in 08 when Dorsey was a rookie Hail only had 3.5 sacks ( down year ) and really didn't become the monster he is today until they went to the 3/4.

Now was Dorsey going to be the next Sapp like everyone said when he was coming out of collage... No I don't and didn't think so back then, but to say that KC hasn't robbed this kid of a shot at being great is a joke! I can only hope that a 4/3 team gives a pick to free him of the spot he's in so he can become a UT again.
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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Gunther used Dorsey in the very worst way possible as a rookie. Not saying he was going to light it up like Suh, but Gunther is basically an idiot.

As for Dorsey in the 3-4, he is very good against the run and doesn't get pushed around a bunch, but he lacks any sort of pass rush. I like him a lot but I don't expect him to be in KC after he becomes a FA.
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