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Old 04-17-2012, 05:27 PM    (permalink
CowboysBeastMode
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giants fans go away, go watch the yanks & the sox
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Originally Posted by Witten4HOF View Post
lol why the disrespect ?
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Bitterness I guess...
just jokes guys, sorry my humor isn't very humorous

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We don't act this way around our forum. We welcome it. You should apologize to bbd. That was uncalled for.
i pm'ed him

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Old 04-17-2012, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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I'm the same way. If the offense are just weed/alcohol related... I could care less. Happens to everyone their offenses are just overblown because they are athletes. They are allowed to live. If Janoris Jenkins is there at 45 and we don't take him that's an epic mistake.

By the way, I learned today that Bernadeau was Carolina's back-up center. Just gets my hopes on DeCastro a bit higher although still unlikely. After reading that BTB article on our OL... if we don't address it we will pay for it.
But when a person continually gets busted for drugs, IMO that's an issue. This guy just has never learned and I feel will not. I do agree he has immense talent, but sometimes the stupidity outweighs the talent.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, people love to talk about the Giants pass rush without giving your DTs any credit for making it happen. Then say, "WE NEED PASS RUSH, LOOK AT THE GIANTS!" Then they scurry off to look at the latest DE rankings.

Brockers is exactly what we need. There's no mistake about it.

You can't look at what we did last year to define what Rob Ryan likes to do. Besides, even he knows it's not about the scheme.

ďItís always about players, every scheme is about players. I donít know if (scheme) is overrated or not; itís about players.Ē
- Rob Ryan

That's why he ran the 4-3 in Oakland and 3-4 in Cleveland. He fit what works best for the players on the team. It wasn't so much, an "I'm fitting these players in my scheme" sort of deal.
i have to disagree with you, what made the giants defense so successful was the fact that on passing situations they could put 3 de's on the field have mismatches b/c its hard to double jpp when you tuck on the inside with another mismatch against guards, they can essentially eliminate the ability to double premier pass rushers, its like in baseall having a great hitter batting behind a another great hitter,

while brockers could be an excellent player he more a run stuffer right now, the cowboys need to find players who excel can getting after the passer b/c if you cant stop the pass you cant win in this league. i would like to see the cowboys draft chandler jones a develop him as a 3-4 end, his upside is just as high as brockers, but he won't be able to contribute in the base defense as a rookie, unlike brockers tho, but i think he definitely can contribute in the 4 man front and in the nickel as versatile player that you can move around along the line and trying to mismatches
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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i have to disagree with you, what made the giants defense so successful was the fact that on passing situations they could put 3 de's on the field have mismatches b/c its hard to double jpp when you tuck on the inside with another mismatch against guards, they can essentially eliminate the ability to double premier pass rushers, its like in baseall having a great hitter batting behind a another great hitter,

while brockers could be an excellent player he more a run stuffer right now, the cowboys need to find players who excel can getting after the passer b/c if you cant stop the pass you cant win in this league. i would like to see the cowboys draft chandler jones a develop him as a 3-4 end, his upside is just as high as brockers, but he won't be able to contribute in the base defense as a rookie, unlike brockers tho, but i think he definitely can contribute in the 4 man front and in the nickel as versatile player that you can move around along the line and trying to mismatches
We got that. His name is Victor Butler.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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With Janoris Jenkins having such a bad run in and more recent reports of him continuing to smoke despite getting kicked out of Florida. Anyone think he might drop to us in the 2nd? I'm sure it is unlikely but I think that it may cause some red flags in some of the war rooms.
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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We got that. His name is Victor Butler.
he's only one guy and he's only really effective from the outside dallas needs more versatility someone who can get an interior rush. I'm not sold on brockers as a pass rushers I think he is a two down player
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:06 PM    (permalink
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With Janoris Jenkins having such a bad run in and more recent reports of him continuing to smoke despite getting kicked out of Florida. Anyone think he might drop to us in the 2nd? I'm sure it is unlikely but I think that it may cause some red flags in some of the war rooms.
Jenkins has assured himself that he WON'T go in the first, and if he wasn't so talented he would easily slide to the 3rd round
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:15 PM    (permalink
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he's only one guy and he's only really effective from the outside dallas needs more versatility someone who can get an interior rush. I'm not sold on brockers as a pass rushers I think he is a two down player
He's only one guy? But your solution was Chandler Jones??? Jones is gonna get you interior rush?

How do you think you get effective inside rush (or outside rush for that matter) in a 3-4? You gotta have a mammoth sized DT sucking up the attention of the big uglies on the opposing OL so your LBs can come flying through or at least face single instead of double team coverage (like Ware so frequently gets).

The assignment for 3-4 DE is not the same for 4-3 DE. You gotta understand that first.
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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How do you think you get effective inside rush (or outside rush for that matter) in a 3-4? You gotta have a mammoth sized DT sucking up the attention of the big uglies on the opposing OL so your LBs can come flying through or at least face single instead of double team coverage (like Ware so frequently gets).

The assignment for 3-4 DE is not the same for 4-3 DE. You gotta understand that first.
Now it gets complicated. If we played a Bill Parcells 2-gap 3-4 scheme then you do need massive run-first DEs. Rob plays a huge mix of schemes and I'm not confident on Brockers being the best fit especially if you ask him to 1-gap. He's just not the knife into the backfield kind of player.

Not going to lie though if we plan on utilizing a lot of 2-gap with both DEs then you would struggle to find a better pair than Spears and Brockers. I just don't buy Rob taking us that direction.

You are 100% correct on the 3-4 DE vs 4-3 DE however. Problem with comparing to the Giants is you are comparing odd and even fronts.

For the sake of comparison use our nickel defense and theirs.

Ware - Hatcher/Lissemore - Ratliff - Spencer

I really don't buy that we have problems getting to the QB in even fronts. Problem last year was whenever other team ran 3 or 4 WR sets it meant that Alan Ball or Frank Walker or T-New were being relied on to cover their man for a few seconds.

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Old 04-17-2012, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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He's only one guy? But your solution was Chandler Jones??? Jones is gonna get you interior rush?

How do you think you get effective inside rush (or outside rush for that matter) in a 3-4? You gotta have a mammoth sized DT sucking up the attention of the big uglies on the opposing OL so your LBs can come flying through or at least face single instead of double team coverage (like Ware so frequently gets).

The assignment for 3-4 DE is not the same for 4-3 DE. You gotta understand that first.
i very do well understand what is required to run a 3-4 end you need big de who can hold point of a attack vs tackles and be able to double team. imo if developed right chandler jones will be better than brockers. he needs to get stronger and learn how to play the 3-4 end, but i see brockers as being a better marcus spears. chandler isn't the solution but i do believe he can be a calais campbell type player and active 3-4 end with pass rush ability.
brocker, jones or anyone else alone is not the solution alone by themselves, they need to find a wealth of players who can rush the passer. but imo jones is versatile he can line up as base end in 4 man looks and can inside and give guards alot of trouble with his length and decent quickness. i like brockers if the cowboys could get both but in the end i like jones potential and versatility over the raw size and power of brockers
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:54 PM    (permalink
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i very do well understand what is required to run a 3-4 end you need big de who can hold point of a attack vs tackles and be able to double team. imo if developed right chandler jones will be better than brockers. he needs to get stronger and learn how to play the 3-4 end, but i see brockers as being a better marcus spears. chandler isn't the solution but i do believe he can be a calais campbell type player and active 3-4 end with pass rush ability.
brocker, jones or anyone else alone is not the solution alone by themselves, they need to find a wealth of players who can rush the passer. but imo jones is versatile he can line up as base end in 4 man looks and can inside and give guards alot of trouble with his length and decent quickness. i like brockers if the cowboys could get both but in the end i like jones potential and versatility over the raw size and power of brockers
Comparing the 2 is apples and oranges. Maybe if you compare Jones to Butler it would matter more. How is Jones versatile though? I see him strictly as an OLB.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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Brockers reminds me of Chris Canty with a higher ceiling. I think he'll be a good player, I think he'll be in the league for 10 years. He'll be great against the run, and he'll be versatile enough to line up at DE/NT/DT but I don't think he'll be a dynamic player. It really depends on what the Cowboys hope to have from that pick.

Do they want someone who will consistently hold the point or do they want someone to shoot the gaps and disrupt? Without knowing what Garrett, Rex, Jerry/Stephen are looking for, its hard for me to call it a bad pick. He's just not who I want.

I heard Lombardi talking about Akiem Hicks from Regina as a late round guy 3-4 teams may be interested in. I figure since we're focused on Brockers, I'd bring him up.

Apparently he was a more highly touted recruit than Brockers but was kicked off the LSU football team. Size and potential. Pretty much all I know about him.

Speaking of character concerns: Janoris Jenkins and Orson Charles are both guys with red flags that I'd also take. Jenkins possibly being pushed to the 2nd and Charles possibly to the 3rd are going to make 2 teams very happy with their talent.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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Jenkins has assured himself that he WON'T go in the first, and if he wasn't so talented he would easily slide to the 3rd round
I would disagree with that actually. There are a few teams who don't care about character concerns and others that figure they can fix them.

Bengals don't mind a rough past, Raiders haven't either.

Ravens come to mind as a team that don't mind a character concern because they know Ray Lewis and Ed Reed will get things shaped up.

Patriots drafted Merriweather after the "Stomping" incident when many teams shyed away from him, didn't have character problems but didn't pan out.

Then there is always all of the Cam Newton drama as well.

So saying he isn't going to go first round I would say is possible but I would put it far from a lock because of his pure talent.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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Did anyone see Rod Woodson's workout with Mark Barron? He does not belong in the same sentence as guys like Roy Williams is terms of coverage. That's disrespect. He was moving around like a CB out there.

Here it is:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-networ...nd-Rod-Woodson

Watch and see the light!

Last edited by CDCB14 : 04-17-2012 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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Now it gets complicated. If we played a Bill Parcells 2-gap 3-4 scheme then you do need massive run-first DEs. Rob plays a huge mix of schemes and I'm not confident on Brockers being the best fit especially if you ask him to 1-gap. He's just not the knife into the backfield kind of player.

Not going to lie though if we plan on utilizing a lot of 2-gap with both DEs then you would struggle to find a better pair than Spears and Brockers. I just don't buy Rob taking us that direction.

You are 100% correct on the 3-4 DE vs 4-3 DE however. Problem with comparing to the Giants is you are comparing odd and even fronts.

For the sake of comparison use our nickel defense and theirs.

Ware - Hatcher/Lissemore - Ratliff - Spencer

I really don't buy that we have problems getting to the QB in even fronts. Problem last year was whenever other team ran 3 or 4 WR sets it meant that Alan Ball or Frank Walker or T-New were being relied on to cover their man for a few seconds.
RIGHT! Rob uses a whole mix of schemes... so that's exactly why Brockers fits. I hate to say it, but Poe too. Both can ultimately be molded into playing both 34 DE, 34 NT or 43 NT. VERSATILITY is the name of the game for Rob.

The idea of bringing up the Giants is that they have the big bodies that stuff the run and collapse the pocket in Linval and Canty. Linval is 6'4, 323. Canty is 6'7, 317. Our NT is 6'4, 287. Hatcher and Lissemore barely crack 300. Bottomline, we need to add BEEF to our DL. Those guys are the unsung heros.

Our nickel front with Brockers is a significant upgrade to what we currently got (in what you showed).

Spencer - Brockers - Ratliff - Ware

That's money right there.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:47 PM    (permalink
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- Fast rising Shea McClellin of Boise State is getting a lot of consideration at middle/inside linebacker by a number of teams, including the Dallas Cowboys, who we reported last week will explore trading down from the 14th spot. McClellin showed at the Senior Bowl he could quickly adjust to a number of traditional linebacker spots. McLellin continues to move north on draft boards. We were told one franchise tried to squeeze him in for a last minute visit but there was no room on the schedule.

http://www.draftinsider.net/blog/?p=6265

I hope everybody is prepared for a WTF were they thinking pick lol
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:51 PM    (permalink
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- Fast rising Shea McClellin of Boise State is getting a lot of consideration at middle/inside linebacker by a number of teams, including the Dallas Cowboys, who we reported last week will explore trading down from the 14th spot. McClellin showed at the Senior Bowl he could quickly adjust to a number of traditional linebacker spots. McLellin continues to move north on draft boards. We were told one franchise tried to squeeze him in for a last minute visit but there was no room on the schedule.

http://www.draftinsider.net/blog/?p=6265

I hope everybody is prepared for a WTF were they thinking pick lol
Scott's notes on McClellin's Senior Bowl weigh-in:

"Little or no definition. Looked like one of the quarterbacks."

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Old 04-17-2012, 09:55 PM    (permalink
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Did anyone see Rod Woodson's workout with Mark Barron? He does not belong in the same sentence as guys like Roy Williams is terms of coverage. That's disrespect. He was moving around like a CB out there.

Here it is:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-networ...nd-Rod-Woodson

Watch and see the light!
LOL your reaching! Hes running around in shorts and covering who? Who was throwing the ball BTW? To say that proves he can cover is a joke!
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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Scott's notes on McClellin's Senior Bowl weigh-in:

"Little or no definition. Looked like one of the quarterbacks."


A versatile, explosive athlete with a mighty motor who knows how to reach the quarterback. McClellin possesses a solidly put together frame with a strong upper body which maximizes his length into contact. He plays all over the Boise State defense. He will play with his hand on the ground, can stand up and rush from a two-point stance and will blitz from the inside as well. He exhibits an explosive first step off the ball both with his hand on the ground and standing up. He can also coil up into his stance, stay low initially off the football and threaten the edge with speed. He does a nice job timing up the snap count and is routinely one of the first lineman moving off the ball. McClellin doesn't waste any motion from a two-point stance either when threatening the backfield. His weight is consistently in his front foot and that generates a burst attacking the backfield. He also displays a real know-how of getting to the quarterback and he possesses a solid pass rushing arsenal. He isn't the most flexible of athletes, but will drop his pad level around the corner, sink his hips and turn the corner. He's balanced/fluidity laterally when working a counter off his speed rush. He gets a bit upright, but extends his arms well, is strong in the lower half working through contact and accelerates well through contact. Also, McClellin extends his arms well at the point, can initially create a pop to gain space and possesses a solid initial burst once he gains a step. He's clever when asked to stunt, disguises his intentions well and works endlessly toward the quarterback.

He also plays the run well for his size, is patient when taking on blocks, extends his arms well and has a violent set of hands. His combination of body control and hand strength allows him to keep himself clean into contact, fend off the block and work his way in pursuit. He is a solid anchor player who can run as well and will make plays off his frame. He likes to run around blocks more so in space and at times will take himself out of plays. Also, McClellin is often asked to drop off into coverage and is a solid athlete in man. He keeps his feet under him, exhibits some natural balance/fluidity in the hips and can re-direct and close on the football.

Bunting seems to love him.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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LOL your reaching! Hes running around in shorts and covering who? Who was throwing the ball BTW? To say that proves he can cover is a joke!
Ummm ya, I agree he was covering a dummy and running in shorts. Don't fool yourself. Was a good piece, but more so showing Woodson's coaching skills.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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RIGHT! Rob uses a whole mix of schemes... so that's exactly why Brockers fits. I hate to say it, but Poe too. Both can ultimately be molded into playing both 34 DE, 34 NT or 43 NT. VERSATILITY is the name of the game for Rob.

The idea of bringing up the Giants is that they have the big bodies that stuff the run and collapse the pocket in Linval and Canty. Linval is 6'4, 323. Canty is 6'7, 317. Our NT is 6'4, 287. Hatcher and Lissemore barely crack 300. Bottomline, we need to add BEEF to our DL. Those guys are the unsung heros.

Our nickel front with Brockers is a significant upgrade to what we currently got (in what you showed).

Spencer - Brockers - Ratliff - Ware

That's money right there.
... We already have a hoss if all you want is strength and an immoveable object (Josh Brent). I also think it's absolutely hilarious that you are planning on playing Brockers on a nickel front. Unless you are projecting two or three years from now there is no way I want him on the field against a passing front. I highly question your "better than what I posted" comment considering it's unquestionable that BOTH Hatcher and Lissemore are more developed (Better) pass rushers than Brockers.

Once again Josh Brent was "lean" at 320lbs and was talking about adding 10 pounds of muscle. He earned more playing time and the staff raved about him both during and after the season.

You ignored my point on versatile. Brockers being able to occasionally play a TWO-GAP NT (which currently we only use when Josh Brent is on the field) doesn't help the fact he cannot effectively play One-Gap 5-tech or One-Gap NT. The only truly versatile defensive lineman in the 1st round (unfortunately) is Poe.

Poe: 1 or 2 gap at both NT and 5-tech
Cox: 1 gap at both NT and 5-tech
Brockers: 2 gap at both NT and 5-tech

Cox would come in and play a "Lissemore" role (1-gapping at both) with the potential to sub for Ratliff in 1-gap NT situations.

Brockers would come in and play a "Spears" role (2-gapping at DE) with the potential to sub Brent in 2-gap NT situations.

Neither is scheme diverse which is why we are having this argument on a fundamentals level. :D

Looking at it this way is exactly why I completely believe that our staff is enamored with Poe.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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... We already have a hoss if all you want is strength and an immoveable object (Josh Brent). I also think it's absolutely hilarious that you are planning on playing Brockers on a nickel front. Unless you are projecting two or three years from now there is no way I want him on the field against a passing front. I highly question your "better than what I posted" comment considering it's unquestionable that BOTH Hatcher and Lissemore are more developed (Better) pass rushers than Brockers.

Once again Josh Brent was "lean" at 320lbs and was talking about adding 10 pounds of muscle. He earned more playing time and the staff raved about him both during and after the season.

You ignored my point on versatile. Brockers being able to occasionally play a TWO-GAP NT (which currently we only use when Josh Brent is on the field) doesn't help the fact he cannot effectively play One-Gap 5-tech or One-Gap NT. The only truly versatile defensive lineman in the 1st round (unfortunately) is Poe.

Poe: 1 or 2 gap at both NT and 5-tech
Cox: 1 gap at both NT and 5-tech
Brockers: 2 gap at both NT and 5-tech

Cox would come in and play a "Lissemore" role (1-gapping at both) with the potential to sub for Ratliff in 1-gap NT situations.

Brockers would come in and play a "Spears" role (2-gapping at DE) with the potential to sub Brent in 2-gap NT situations.

Neither is scheme diverse which is why we are having this argument on a fundamentals level. :D

Looking at it this way is exactly why I completely believe that our staff is enamored with Poe.
The book is probably not written yet on Brent, but right now, he doesn't leave us thinking that he's anything more than a JAG that we don't need to look at upgrading. Also, I think Brent is just a 2 gap NT. Brockers is way more versatile than that.

You're right about Brockers in the nickel, I was having the wrong frame of mind and just thinking about a traditional 4-3 front where Brockers would be of use. Obviously in the nickel you want a pressure attack from your 4 lineman with the 2 LBs free to read and react... which is different from a traditional 4-3 alignment.

I agree with your other points.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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Comparing the 2 is apples and oranges. Maybe if you compare Jones to Butler it would matter more. How is Jones versatile though? I see him strictly as an OLB.
I don't see him as olb at all he too stiff, right now he's not physically ready to play end in a 3-4 but 2 years in NFL weight lifting program he could add 25lbs in upper body strength to play that position. Look at his body type he's built similar to quinton coples 6'6" with long arms just not as physically mature yet.
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:15 AM    (permalink
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I don't see him as olb at all he too stiff, right now he's not physically ready to play end in a 3-4 but 2 years in NFL weight lifting program he could add 25lbs in upper body strength to play that position. Look at his body type he's built similar to quinton coples 6'6" with long arms just not as physically mature yet.
Man, we are way apart on our projections for Chandler Jones.

I will laugh at any team thinking he's gonna be a 34 DE. That's about as far out as I've heard recenty.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:35 AM    (permalink
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Man, we are way apart on our projections for Chandler Jones.

I will laugh at any team thinking he's gonna be a 34 DE. That's about as far out as I've heard recenty.
Jones best fit is undoubtedly as a 43 end (probably left side) and any 34 team considering him is doing so as a OLB (which I don't really see as a good spot for him)
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