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Old 04-20-2012, 11:03 PM    (permalink
andyjo672
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I think that the only thing we disagree on is the point about Minnesota jumping to the front of the line for teams looking to relocate. I think that Toronto and San Antonio still get first dibs (not counting LA), if they want the team; not to mention that the NFL and the city of LA seem to think that the city can support two teams (despite evidence to the contrary). Of course, all bets are off if an owner just wants to move his team to a specific city.

Minneapolis is obviously too big of a market to go without a team forever. I just think that they could be in for a 10-20 year wait (I think Baltimore had to wait 13 years). Cleveland and Houston were just very lucky that their teams left at a time when the NFL went expansion-crazy.
San Antonio is not nearly as attractive of a market to the NFL as Minneapolis/St. Paul. It's about 2/3 the size and only about 3.5 hours from two of the most popular franchises in the league which would result in split allegiances. Not to mention, MSP is a bit more attractive in terms of being a favorable media market:

http://www.janson.com/media/2008/12/...ision-markets/

I could maybe get behind Toronto being a more viable option after LA, but that's about it aside from trying to expand to London which seems highly improbable. And it's pretty evident that if any team were to move to Toronto it's going to be the Bills.

Nonetheless, this conversation is meaningless. Minnesota is going to approve this. But, LA is going to get a team sooner rather than later. Jacksonville's new owner is apparently committed to staying in Jacksonville (no idea why) so that leaves Buffalo, Carolina, Oakland, St. Louis as the only options as far as I'm concerned. Maybe I'm wrong about that, I'm sure you all have better clarity on that.
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Old 04-21-2012, 02:03 AM    (permalink
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I wish people would stop bringing up San Antonio. They would not support an NFL franchise.
And LA will? I think San Antonio has better odds than LA.
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:49 AM    (permalink
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And LA will? I think San Antonio has better odds than LA.
San Antonio is Cowboys territory. More importantly, even if people bought to the idea of leaving the beloved Cowboys for a new team, San Antonio is not a city with an economy that will support two professional teams. The Spurs are successful, financially, because NBA games are affordable. Just because SA is a large metroplex, does not mean that it could support an NFL franchise.
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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San Antonio is Cowboys territory. More importantly, even if people bought to the idea of leaving the beloved Cowboys for a new team, San Antonio is not a city with an economy that will support two professional teams. The Spurs are successful, financially, because NBA games are affordable. Just because SA is a large metroplex, does not mean that it could support an NFL franchise.
I think that a team in San Antonio would probably go over about as well as a team in Jacksonville. Jacksonville is the largest city in Florida, in terms of population, it's (theoretically) a safe distance away from from Miami and Tampa, and Florida loves football. In hindsight, it's pretty obvious that the Jags can't compete with the Dolphins, Bucs, and Gators (in some parts of Florida, the Gators are football). That didn't stop the NFL from trying it out. San Antonio faces similar problems, but they're still on the NFLs radar. Tom Benson considered moving the Saints there, before it became an obvious PR nightmare.

Oklahoma City is an interesting dark horse candidate. They've been a surprisingly strong market for the NBA, and we all know that Oklahoma loves it some football. If I owned a team and I was looking to relocate, they'd be on my short list.

Back on topic, I think that Minnesota miraculously finds enough votes to keep the Vikings. The fact is, having an NFL team is great for a city, and that's why cities without NFL teams are lining up to get one. Who the hell would ever plan a trip to Green Bay, Wisconsin; if it weren't for the Packers? Or Canton, Ohio; if they didn't have the Pro Football Hall of Fame? Would anybody ever willingly go to Detroit if they didn't have the Lions and host the Super Bowl every so often? An NFL presence turns a city into a destination. The NFL and the Vikings just called a political bluff, IMO.

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Old 04-21-2012, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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Would anybody ever willingly go to Detroit if they didn't have the Lions
No. Absolutely not. There's only 2 reasons to go to Detroit. Tigers and Lions.
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Old 04-21-2012, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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San Antonio is Cowboys territory. More importantly, even if people bought to the idea of leaving the beloved Cowboys for a new team, San Antonio is not a city with an economy that will support two professional teams. The Spurs are successful, financially, because NBA games are affordable. Just because SA is a large metroplex, does not mean that it could support an NFL franchise.
Yes it's true, I grew up in that town. Essentially SA is is Cowboys territory, it's reflected in the local sports media (author Larry McMurtry was however right when he termed it the "wretched Texas press" & it applies to sports too) & Dallas fans there are proud of their multi-generational status as such. A few Texans fans have come out of hiding with their recent success, but the Cowboys basically own the place & have camps in my alma mater there, Trinity University.

SA itself is owned by the Spurs, but then again the whole LA vast metroplex itself is owned by the Dodgers & Lakers. None of them would welcome an NFL team showing up.

The fact that LA is the #2 mkt. will pull an NFL team there, probably an existing one, & Goodell's glowing speech about how the NFL wants to keep the Vikes in Minnesota will evaporate rapidly when the hundreds of millions of $ are bait on the hook to the League to support a move to LA

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Old 04-21-2012, 07:55 PM    (permalink
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What are the chances of a team moving to Vancouver? Maybe the Rams? Could allow them to stay in the West
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Old 04-21-2012, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Toronto needs a football team. Buffalo really should move to Toronto.

Buffalo to Toronto, Jaguars to LA.
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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What are the chances of a team moving to Vancouver? Maybe the Rams? Could allow them to stay in the West
If Canada gets a team it's going to be the Bills to Toronto. Vancouver couldn't even support an NBA team. Toronto would be guaranteed not to fail. It's the 5th largest city in North America, and they could keep most of the current Bills fans. Buffalo to Toronto is comparable to Lansing to Detroit, Milwaukee to Green Bay, or Columbus to Cincinnati. Not that it wouldn't still suck for Buffalo fans, but they wouldn't be losing their team completely.
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:28 PM    (permalink
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If Canada gets a team it's going to be the Bills to Toronto. Vancouver couldn't even support an NBA team. Toronto would be guaranteed not to fail. It's the 5th largest city in North America, and they could keep most of the current Bills fans. Buffalo to Toronto is comparable to Lansing to Detroit, Milwaukee to Green Bay, or Columbus to Cincinnati. Not that it wouldn't still suck for Buffalo fans, but they wouldn't be losing their team completely.
Yet this is the same fanbase that only support the Raptors or Blue Jays when they're successful.

Vancouver has great support for the BC Lions, last time I've checked. Which is a football team for the city in the CFL.
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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The divisions really aren't based on location anymore, how are the titans, texans, jaguars and COLTs in the same division.

It's always made more sense for the Dolphins to be in the AFC South and moving the Colts to the AFC East (where they originally were), but at that time they didn't want to interfer with the division rivals.

Remember when the Titans used to play the Steelers, Ravens, Browns, Bengals as division rivals? Most don't.

The NFL needs to realize that while some rivalries shouldn't be messed with, but some things are more practical and right now the division alignment isn't.

St Louis going to Seattle, Arizona and San Fran.
Dallas going to Philly, NY,and WAS.

They should have totally re-organized it when the Texans joined and not just form a new division and move seattle to the nfc
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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If Canada gets a team it's going to be the Bills to Toronto. Vancouver couldn't even support an NBA team. Toronto would be guaranteed not to fail. It's the 5th largest city in North America, and they could keep most of the current Bills fans. Buffalo to Toronto is comparable to Lansing to Detroit, Milwaukee to Green Bay, or Columbus to Cincinnati. Not that it wouldn't still suck for Buffalo fans, but they wouldn't be losing their team completely.
???

Are you just using numbers on wikipedia or something? The Cincy metro is just as large, if not larger, than that of Columbus.
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:56 PM    (permalink
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???

Are you just using numbers on wikipedia or something? The Cincy metro is just as large, if not larger, than that of Columbus.
Maybe he's talking distance??
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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???

Are you just using numbers on wikipedia or something? The Cincy metro is just as large, if not larger, than that of Columbus.
I was talking driving distances. Driving from Buffalo to Toronto takes less than 2 hours and is basically the equivalent of an instate drive that other fans around the league face. They'd still be in a reasonable distance for Buffalo fans to go to games.

By what you were thinking, all three of those examples would be wrong.
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:33 PM    (permalink
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With Toronto, I'm not sure they could support a team. Yeah they have the size, but looking deeper, there are some concerns. Right now, of the 3 teams in Toronto, 2 are terrible. The Leafs have been out of the playoffs for like 8 years, they still have unbelievable support. The Raptors, not so much. The Jays are actually a good team, and are fun to watch, but there's always a sense of inevitability that if everything goes right, they'll finish no higher than 3rd place. That and there being 81 opportunities to watch the team mean they don't draw a whole lot. Toronto supports the Leafs because they're the Leafs, probably the 2nd most storied franchise in NHL history, playing the game that Canadians love.

Also, Toronto and the GTA is very heavy on immigrants. 47% of people in Toronto(don't have the #s for the GTA) identify themselves as visible minorities, and 50% were born outside Canada. Many of the immigrants are from South and East Asia, not exactly places that generally produce football fans. Obviously they can learn to love football, but with so many alternatives, including Toronto FC, available, it's not a sure thing. I live in Canada, and would love to be able to go to Toronto to watch an NFL game, but I'm not sure Toronto would be able to support the Bills better than Buffalo can.
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Old 04-21-2012, 11:05 PM    (permalink
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With Toronto, I'm not sure they could support a team. Yeah they have the size, but looking deeper, there are some concerns. Right now, of the 3 teams in Toronto, 2 are terrible. The Leafs have been out of the playoffs for like 8 years, they still have unbelievable support. The Raptors, not so much. The Jays are actually a good team, and are fun to watch, but there's always a sense of inevitability that if everything goes right, they'll finish no higher than 3rd place. That and there being 81 opportunities to watch the team mean they don't draw a whole lot. Toronto supports the Leafs because they're the Leafs, probably the 2nd most storied franchise in NHL history, playing the game that Canadians love.

Also, Toronto and the GTA is very heavy on immigrants. 47% of people in Toronto(don't have the #s for the GTA) identify themselves as visible minorities, and 50% were born outside Canada. Many of the immigrants are from South and East Asia, not exactly places that generally produce football fans. Obviously they can learn to love football, but with so many alternatives, including Toronto FC, available, it's not a sure thing. I live in Canada, and would love to be able to go to Toronto to watch an NFL game, but I'm not sure Toronto would be able to support the Bills better than Buffalo can.
Plus I don't believe support for the CFL franchise is high here in Toronto. Altough I believe if the Bills moved to Toronto, supporters would come from Hamilton and Montreal rather than Toronto. Both cities(Hamilton and Montreal) support their CFL franchises at large

It is growing upon teenagers in Toronto. As you said, it can be something in the future

I still feel as if an NFL team would fit in the Vancouver culture more so than Toronto's
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Old 04-21-2012, 11:54 PM    (permalink
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saw this article linked at profootballtalk.com: Buffalo Bills' Canadian fanbase growing rapidly.

also, the Blue Jays fanbase has been as loyal as expected in a division with the three juggernauts of MLB - Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays. with that said, Alex Anthopoulos has rebuilt the team from the ground up since he became GM in 2009, and theyre actually the darkhouse to take the wildcard this year, especially with how bad the Red Sox and Angels have been.

Raptors fans are another thing altogether. i still remember the game this season when Jeremy Lin first played there. it was pretty much a home game for the Knicks.
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Old 04-22-2012, 12:13 AM    (permalink
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saw this article linked at profootballtalk.com: Buffalo Bills' Canadian fanbase growing rapidly.

also, the Blue Jays fanbase has been as loyal as expected in a division with the three juggernauts of MLB - Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays. with that said, Alex Anthopoulos has rebuilt the team from the ground up since he became GM in 2009, and theyre actually the darkhouse to take the wildcard this year, especially with how bad the Red Sox and Angels have been.

Raptors fans are another thing altogether. i still remember the game this season when Jeremy Lin first played there. it was pretty much a home game for the Knicks.
Blue Jays loyal? Games are never close to being sold out unless the Yankees or Sox are in the city. Even then, its the opposing team's fanbase that sells out the game.
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Old 04-22-2012, 01:40 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Plus I don't believe support for the CFL franchise is high here in Toronto. Altough I believe if the Bills moved to Toronto, supporters would come from Hamilton and Montreal rather than Toronto. Both cities(Hamilton and Montreal) support their CFL franchises at large

It is growing upon teenagers in Toronto. As you said, it can be something in the future

I still feel as if an NFL team would fit in the Vancouver culture more so than Toronto's
I disagree, the CFL is viewed by Torontonians as minor league football and Toronto is too cosmopolitan to watch it. The Blue Jays had 4 million fans a year attend their games till a Belgian Brewery bought the team and cut the payroll by 75 million dollars. Torontonians won't accept a franchise that doesn't try to win. The Rapters have consistently failed to retain their top players so basketball has struggled a bit and who can blame their fans.
A NFL franchise that has a local owner with bucks to spend would be in a similar position that the Jays were in when they entered the league and fill the stadium on a consistent basis with little effort as long as the fans think they are trying to be successful. They have no trouble selling out Bills game where they charge a fortune to attend.
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Old 04-22-2012, 01:49 AM    (permalink
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Old 04-22-2012, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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I disagree, the CFL is viewed by Torontonians as minor league football and Toronto is too cosmopolitan to watch it. The Blue Jays had 4 million fans a year attend their games till a Belgian Brewery bought the team and cut the payroll by 75 million dollars. Torontonians won't accept a franchise that doesn't try to win. The Rapters have consistently failed to retain their top players so basketball has struggled a bit and who can blame their fans.
A NFL franchise that has a local owner with bucks to spend would be in a similar position that the Jays were in when they entered the league and fill the stadium on a consistent basis with little effort as long as the fans think they are trying to be successful. They have no trouble selling out Bills game where they charge a fortune to attend.
Even when the year the Blue Jays went out and spent money the support by the fans was very little.

I brought up the CFL, because it is at the end of the day, a football league. It shows just how interested a city is in the sport.

Toronto sports fans are known for being bandwagoners. Very little support is given to their team unless it is successful.

Also the Bills haven't had a winning record, and haven't made the playoffs in a while now. You're bringing in a franchise that will be looked at by Toronto sports fans as a loser.
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Old 04-22-2012, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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This wouldn't happen. The 49ers and Rams have been rivals for decades and have the longest history within the division between any two combined teams.
This. I think Seattle will go the North as opposed to St Louis.
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Old 04-22-2012, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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This. I think Seattle will go the North as opposed to St Louis.
Yeah but Seattle is two time zones away from all the other teams. This would not fly at all. It would have to be St. Louis.
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Old 04-22-2012, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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Vancouver has great support for the BC Lions, last time I've checked. Which is a football team for the city in the CFL.
BC Lions are the defending Gray Cup champions too
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:13 PM    (permalink
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This. I think Seattle will go the North as opposed to St Louis.
This makes no sense at all. They'd might as well just keep the Vikings in the North if they were going to ignore geography this way.
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