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Old 04-28-2012, 12:23 AM    (permalink
Raiderz4Life
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Too bad not another GM drafting in the top 23 spots agreed with you, that's why Decastro lasted till pick 24. I'll take their opinion over yours every day of the week. You really have zero facts to back up your argument, it is all just your opinion which really counts for nothing in the end. Nobody at the NFL level is going to follow your advise so you really have no argument at all.
If an OG like DeCastro cannot go top 10, then where is your evidence that your opinion has merit???? I can show you a hundred examples of LT's getting drafted high in the draft, what can you offer except that it is a tough position to play and not all of them were stars.
I just ABSOLUTELY love how this has always and probably forever will be....your go to argument.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:06 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Says who??? Certainly 23 GM's passed on DeCastro while only 3 passed on Kalil and Cleveland already has an All Pro LT, so where is the evidence???
Sure, QB's are more important than LT's and there are a couple of defensive positions which are just as important as LT's, but there is no evidence that NFL GM's think LT's are overrated, that is just a figment of some people's imagination.
NFL GM's might be wrong, did you ever consider that?

Fact: Poor left tackle play hasn't proven to be a major hinderance. If you need proof look at every single playoff team this past year outside of Houston and Cincinnati. The Giants have won two superbowls with David freakin' Diehl.

And strong left tackle play has shown little correlation to winning football. Michael Roos, Jason Peters, Joe Thomas and Jake Long can't carry their teams to wins.

The difference in impact from the top tier guys and the middling guys is minimal at best, you can get by with average LT play and the need for strong LT play is extremely overrated.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bixby View Post
NFL GM's might be wrong, did you ever consider that?

Fact: Poor left tackle play hasn't proven to be a major hinderance. If you need proof look at every single playoff team this past year outside of Houston and Cincinnati. The Giants have won two superbowls with David freakin' Diehl.

And strong left tackle play has shown little correlation to winning football. Michael Roos, Jason Peters, Joe Thomas and Jake Long can't carry their teams to wins.

The difference in impact from the top tier guys and the middling guys is minimal at best, you can get by with average LT play and the need for strong LT play is extremely overrated.
Having a great left tackle is awesome... When you have a great QB.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Too bad not another GM drafting in the top 23 spots agreed with you, that's why Decastro lasted till pick 24. I'll take their opinion over yours every day of the week. You really have zero facts to back up your argument, it is all just your opinion which really counts for nothing in the end. Nobody at the NFL level is going to follow your advise so you really have no argument at all.
If an OG like DeCastro cannot go top 10, then where is your evidence that your opinion has merit???? I can show you a hundred examples of LT's getting drafted high in the draft, what can you offer except that it is a tough position to play and not all of them were stars.
I'll answer this by quoting myself when I answered this earlier in the thread:

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Originally Posted by Sloopy View Post
Yes because last year, teams with OT needs didn't pass on Tyron Smith, Gabe Carimi, Nate Soldier or Anthony Castonzo for the likes of Marcell Dareus, Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones and Nick Fairly

Or the year before Teams didn't pass on Trent Williams, Russel Okung and Anthony Davis for the likes of Suh, Gerald McCoy and Eric Berry

Or in 2009 how Jason Smith worked out so well for the Rams when they took him over other needs

The list goes on. Your opinion can both be supported and knocked with a number of different examples the same as mine can.
Your only argument that LTs are more valuable is your assumed opinion of NFL GMs (the Iamcanadian defense if you will) Yet there are just as many scenarios where LTs are passed on for other positions.

DeCastro fell, yes but a VERY GOOD drafting team in the Steelers picked him up, they had a need at LT but went with the best OL in this draft after everyone else let him fall.

So I'll use your own defense against you here. I will take the opinion of the Steelers FO over your opinion and that of the Vikings miserable FO

As far as me not having any other proof other than my opinion:

Your just being ignorant and not reading the 7 PAGES OF THREAD WHICH INCLUDES EVIDENCE CONTRARY TO YOUR OPINION. Hence why you hadn't read post which answers the very essence of your argument
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Miller is visual sex on the field.

Last edited by Sloopy : 04-28-2012 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
Having a great left tackle is awesome... When you have a great QB.
Ideally a team would have both, wouldn't they? I'd rather have the LT first before my QB, so the latter doesn't end up like...Tim Couch, and others who had their careers ruined. You need a very good O-line overall, but most QB's are right handed, and opposing teams normally have their best pass-rushing DE lined up across from the LT. I'm surprised anyone who watches the sport would question the importance of having a solid LT.

Don't confuse what I'm saying though. Most teams never have the opportunity to draft a great LT like Joe Thomas in the top 5, but you do need a solid LT. If you don't, you'll get your QB hammered from his blind side.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:32 AM    (permalink
Sloopy
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Ideally a team would have both, wouldn't they? I'd rather have the LT first before my QB, so the latter doesn't end up like...Tim Couch, and others who had their careers ruined. You need a very good O-line overall, but most QB's are right handed, and opposing teams normally have their best pass-rushing DE lined up across from the LT. I'm surprised anyone who watches the sport would question the importance of having a solid LT.

Don't confuse what I'm saying though. Most teams never have the opportunity to draft a great LT like Joe Thomas in the top 5, but you do need a solid LT. If you don't, you'll get your QB hammered from his blind side.
Spewing archaic inaccuracies.

Please read through this thread before posting something which was said on the first page and has since been debated heavily.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Sloopy View Post
Spewing archaic inaccuracies.

Please read through this thread before posting something which was said on the first page and has since been debated heavily.
It's not archaic inaccuracies, it's actually still very true. It's actually been illustrated quite well in this thread. Yes, pass rushers move around. This has been happening for decades, it's not a new concept like you might like to think it is. The fact is if you have your most versatile lineman at the LT spot you're in pretty good shape week in and week out in the NFL.

Some highlights of who you'll face at LT in the NFL:

JPP
Brian Orakpo
Trent Cole
Demarcus Ware

Will Smith
John Abraham
Charles Johnson

Jared Allen

Aldon Smith
Chris Clemons

Dwight Freeney
Connor Barwin

Harrison

Elvis Dumerville

Suggs and Hali both move around

I certainly would want the best talents I have to face these guys.

There are plenty of good guys on the left side too, making athletic tackles all the more valuable.

Tuck
Babin

Peppers
Avril
Matthews

Long

Williams
Wake

Mathis

Von Miller

You need 2 guys who profiles as having LT type feet in the NFL, making those types of talents more valuable not less.
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:51 AM    (permalink
Sloopy
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It's not archaic inaccuracies, it's actually still very true. It's actually been illustrated quite well in this thread.
And reasons why it isn't true haven't been well illustrated through out?

Quote:
This has been happening for decades, it's not a new concept like you might like to think it is.
Didn't say it was

Quote:
The fact is if you have your most versatile lineman at the LT spot you're in pretty good shape week in and week out in the NFL.
Yes, because the Dolphins, Browns, Eagles, and Panthers were in good shape week in and week out last year.

Quote:
Some highlights of who you'll face at LT in the NFL:

JPP
Brian Orakpo
Trent Cole
Demarcus Ware

Will Smith
John Abraham
Charles Johnson

Jared Allen

Aldon Smith
Chris Clemons

Dwight Freeney
Connor Barwin

Harrison

Elvis Dumerville

Suggs and Hali both move around

I certainly would want the best talents I have to face these guys.

There are plenty of good guys on the left side too, making athletic tackles all the more valuable.

Tuck
Babin

Peppers
Avril
Matthews

Long

Williams
Wake

Mathis

Von Miller

You need 2 guys who profiles as having LT type feet in the NFL, making those types of talents more valuable not less.
Okay but you have a huge part of your list which lines up almost exclusively against the RT, It's not like your moving your LT over to this side to face them.

Furthermore, some of the guys you have lining up at RE/ROLB also move over to the left side of their formation.

It's been going on forever and it is absolutely a reason why having a top LT does not solve your OL woes.

It doesn't hurt you but it doesn't necessarily solve the problem. So all this, "you can't pass on a top LT" BS is outdated and cliche.

Elite guard>average LT in terms of improving your line

Elite LT > average guard in terms of improving your line

So letting a guy like DeCastro fall all the way down to the bottom of round one is stupid, just so you can grab your LT.
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Your argument is ludicrous Sloppy, it is so full of ridiculous assumptions, it is hardly worth the effort to answer to it.

LT's go top 5 in the draft every time there is a prospect worthy of that ranking and many more go top 10. Your argument that LT's who are ranked lower don't go top 10 is mundane to say the least and nobody is arguing that LT is the only important position on a football team, just the second most important position on the offense.

WR's and CB's in this draft year, went after the top LT and Minny is weak at WR and CB yet took a LT ahead of them.

You want to put yourself ahead of NFL GM's and so you ridicule the idea that they don't follow your advice but that just makes you look beyond ridiculous.

Obviously nobody is going to change your mind but sorry, you need to go back to Pro Football 101 and learn what is important in the draft because right now you don't have a clue.

This is my last comment on LT's, I'll let the draft speak volumes for me because it certainly doesn't make your argument look worthy for discussion. It just makes you look rather silly for putting it forward.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:22 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
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Your argument is ludicrous Sloppy, it is so full of ridiculous assumptions, it is hardly worth the effort to answer to it.
Says, man assuming what GMs think despite their being evidence to the contrary.

Quote:
LT's go top 5 in the draft every time there is a prospect worthy of that ranking and many more go top 10. Your argument that LT's who are ranked lower don't go top 10 is mundane to say the least and nobody is arguing that LT is the only important position on a football team, just the second most important position on the offense.
That's not what I'm arguing at all. I'm saying that taking a LT in the top 10 because of the position he plays and letting the best OL in the draft slip to the 20's is ridiculous

Quote:
WR's and CB's in this draft year, went after the top LT and Minny is weak at WR and CB yet took a LT ahead of them.
Please see my quote about other top LTs being taken after safeties etc.

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You want to put yourself ahead of NFL GM's and so you ridicule the idea that they don't follow your advice but that just makes you look beyond ridiculous.
Your right, it's my ego. I think I'm better than NFL GMs. HOW DARE THEY NOT LISTEN TO MEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Obviously nobody is going to change your mind but sorry, you need to go back to Pro Football 101 and learn what is important in the draft because right now you don't have a clue.
I like your lack of evidence to prove your point anywhere in this post, as well as any attempt to contradict any of the points I've made in this thread.

Instead throwing around meaningless insults.

Quote:
This is my last comment on LT's
Thank god.

Quote:
I'll let the draft speak volumes for me because it certainly doesn't make your argument look worthy for discussion. It just makes you look rather silly for putting it forward.
Again, you just refuse to answer to posts which point out the numerous cases in recent drafts which contradict you.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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Yes, because the Dolphins, Browns, Eagles, and Panthers were in good shape week in and week out last year.
Arguments like this are beneath you. You know better than this.

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Okay but you have a huge part of your list which lines up almost exclusively against the RT, It's not like your moving your LT over to this side to face them.

Furthermore, some of the guys you have lining up at RE/ROLB also move over to the left side of their formation.

It's been going on forever and it is absolutely a reason why having a top LT does not solve your OL woes.
Which is all the more reason why having a guy who can jump in and play LT is all the more valuable. If you get a guy with great feet who excels in pass pro then you can bump everyone down on your line. You get a cumulative improvement. If teams move their best players away from your elite LT you have gained your own advantage. Run behind your LT, runs screens, slide protect to his side, maybe you can do double tackles on the right side. You are seeing this whole argument far too linearly.

Also it's not like every pass rusher can make the jump from the right to the left side. It works the same way with tackles. Some guys don't have the same repertoire moving from one side to the other.

However, just the fact that we've identified so much talent shows how valuable a guy with a 'traditional LT' skill set is. He doesn't have to play on the left, but the tools that leads to someone being selected high is really what is being debated here.

Quote:
It doesn't hurt you but it doesn't necessarily solve the problem. So all this, "you can't pass on a top LT" BS is outdated and cliche.

Elite guard>average LT in terms of improving your line

Elite LT > average guard in terms of improving your line

So letting a guy like DeCastro fall all the way down to the bottom of round one is stupid, just so you can grab your LT.
Again how many LT's were selected before DeCastro, 2? Maybe there is a good point for him over Reiff, but if there is an elite T prospect vs. an elite G prospect you have to go with the Tackle. Nobody is saying that Jeff Backus makes your team better than Carl Nicks, however to say that elite T and elite G do the same things for your line is stupid, and we've debated this point more than enough in this thread.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:40 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
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Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
Arguments like this are beneath you. You know better than this.
lol you know I love you Cmarq (despite the fact that we never agree on anything)

Quote:
Which is all the more reason why having a guy who can jump in and play LT is all the more valuable. If you get a guy with great feet who excels in pass pro then you can bump everyone down on your line. You get a cumulative improvement. If teams move their best players away from your elite LT you have gained your own advantage. Run behind your LT, runs screens, slide protect to his side, maybe you can do double tackles on the right side. You are seeing this whole argument far too linearly.
You can just as easily slide protection with an elite center for example. If the dominant DE is lining up against the LT you can slide protection down and let the guard help the LT if the center can take the DT on one-on-one.


Quote:
Also it's not like every pass rusher can make the jump from the right to the left side. It works the same way with tackles. Some guys don't have the same repertoire moving from one side to the other.
I think that the ability for rushers to switch sides is much more prominent than that of OTs.

Most guys get used to a side and stay there.

Quote:
However, just the fact that we've identified so much talent shows how valuable a guy with a 'traditional LT' skill set is. He doesn't have to play on the left, but the tools that leads to someone being selected high is really what is being debated here.
I see what your saying but just because a guy has an OT skill set does not make him more valuable than a guard. I think having an elite skill set at your specific position is more important than positional value.

I'm not arguing that you should take a guard over a LT, I certainly understand that an elite LT can't hurt you; I'm saying that you should take the best OL regardless of position

Quote:
Again how many LT's were selected before DeCastro, 2? Maybe there is a good point for him over Reiff, but if there is an elite T prospect vs. an elite G prospect you have to go with the Tackle. Nobody is saying that Jeff Backus makes your team better than Carl Nicks, however to say that elite T and elite G do the same things for your line is stupid, and we've debated this point more than enough in this thread.
Yea we really aren't getting anywhere, I was really hoping that no one would reopen this thread because we clearly won't convince each other of anything. However, I have no problem putting down the Iamcanadian defense :P
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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