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Old 05-11-2012, 01:18 PM    (permalink
gpngc
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Ed Reed is one of the greatest players in NFL history but AT THIS POINT IN TIME he is not near the No. 1 safety in the NFL. Sooooo... lifetime achievement, fine, but there are definitely a bunch of safeties I'd rather have than him RIGHT NOW.
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
When his motor is on. If Peppers motor was on all the time he'd be a HOFer and arguably in a GOAT conversation.
His motor has been pretty damn consistently on playing infront of Urlacher and Briggs.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bixby
Jairus Byrd is a poor man's Ed Reed. He's not a strong run supporter but if you target him deep, he can make you pay. Rangy center field type FS.
I think statements like this are too influenced by his rookie year. Byrd has improved astronomically in the run game. Always takes the right angle and makes a whole lot more plays inside the box.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bixby View Post
Safety
1. Ed Reed
2. Troy Polamalu
3. Eric Weddle
4. Tyvon Branch
5. Jairus Byrd
  • And there are a couple younger players who I think are right on the cusp of making this list like Earl Thomas, Eric Berry, Nate Allen, Kam Chancellor and Malcolm Jenkins. They've all got the talent, all they need is a big season.
How far down these lists would one expect to see a name like Dashon Goldson?
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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could a case be made for Dashon Goldson? played out of this world last season on a stacked defense
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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Imma agree with Scotty, Bixby's list doesn't sit right with me. Cole at 2 no way, Bunkley no, Nnamdi...maybe but idk.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
Ed Reed is one of the greatest players in NFL history but AT THIS POINT IN TIME he is not near the No. 1 safety in the NFL. Sooooo... lifetime achievement, fine, but there are definitely a bunch of safeties I'd rather have than him RIGHT NOW.
I think there are a ton of safeties who offer more in run defense, but no one makes more of an impact in the passing game than Ed Reed even still. He is a guy that must be accounted for on every snap and dynamically changes the back end. He still is the best center fielder out there.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
When his motor is on. If Peppers motor was on all the time he'd be a HOFer and arguably in a GOAT conversation.
If you don't think Peppers is making the Hall of Fame, then there aren't any DEs from the 00s that will (Strahan is the only DE that I think you could say was better than him without hesitating). Peppers is one of the most respected players in the game (especially at his position), and has been for about a decade now. I get the motor concern, but that is mostly overblown due to his one terrible season in Carolina when he couldn't beat TEs off the edge (when he had 2 or 2.5 sacks during the entire season). But he has been playing like a defensive MVP since he stepped foot in Chicago. He was even named NFC Defensive Player of the Year while in Carolina. He has 100 career sacks, 7 Pro Bowls, 5 All Pro's. He's been to a Super Bowl... And he's not done. He's still playing some of his best football with no talent around him on the front line. He's going to be a Hall of Famer, probably a first ballot guy.

Anyway...


4-3

DE

1. Jared Allen, Minnesota Vikings
2. Jason Pierre-Paul, New York Giants
3. Julius Peppers, Chicago Bears
4. Justin Tuck, New York Giants
5. Charles Johnson, Carolina Panthers
6. Mario Williams, Buffalo Bills
7. Trent Cole, Philadelphia Eagles
8. Chris Long, St Louis Rams
9. Jason Babin, Philadelphia Eagles
10. Dwight Freeney, Indianapolis Colts

There is a lot of competition for DEs and if you can't remember past last season, you probably forgot all about Justin Tuck. Since he had a strong finish and another good playoff run, I'm keeping him in the Top 5. Constant health problems have derailed a perennial All Pro defensive end, but there is no doubt that he is one of the prototype's where every year 43 defenses are looking for 'the next Justin Tuck'. Guys like Babin and Freeney fell on my list due to run defense issues (and Freeney's down season).


DT

1. Ndamukong Suh, Detroit Lions
2. Geno Atkins, Cincinnati Bengals
3. Richard Seymour, Oakland Raiders
4. Cullen Jenkins, Philadelphia Eagles


OLB

1. Von Miller, Denver Broncos
2. Jon Beason, Carolina Panthers
3. Lance Briggs, Chicago Bears
4. Sean Weatherspoon, Atlanta Falcons
5. Chad Greenway, Minnesota Vikings


MLB

1. Brian Urlacher, Chicago Bears
2. D’Qwell Jackson, Cleveland Browns
3. Paul Posluszny, Jacksonville Jaguars
4. James Laurinaitis, St Louis Rams
5. Curtis Lofton, New Orleans Saints

Jonathan Vilma sould make this list, but due to the suspension, it's hard to put him on him there.



3-4


DE

1. Haloti Ngata, Baltimore Ravens
2. Justin Smith, San Francisco 49ers
3. J.J. Watt, Houston Texans
4. Calais Campbell, Arizona Cardinals
5. Darnell Dockett, Arizona Cardinals


NT

1. Vince Wilfork, New England Patriots
2. Sione Pouha, New York Jets
3. BJ Raji, Green Bay Packers
4. Isaac Sopoaga, San Francisco 49ers
5. Paul Soliai, Miami Dolphins
6. Jay Ratliff, Dallas Cowboys
7. Antonio Garay, San Diego Chargers
8. Casey Hampton, Pittsburgh Steelers

Casey Hampton has been underrated his entire career since so many other players garner the attention with impact plays, but with his decline last year I think it shows how much of an impact he's had on that defense since he's been there. I think he's had a Hall of Fame caliber career and he should go down in history as one of the best NTs to ever play the game.


OLB

1. DeMarcus Ware, Dallas Cowboys
2. James Harrison, Pittsburgh Steelers
3. Terrell Suggs, Baltimore Ravens
4. LaMarr Woodley, Pittsburgh Steelers
5. Clay Matthews, Green Bay Packers
6. Tamba Hali, Kansas City Chiefs
7. Cameron Wake, Miami Dolphins
8. Brian Orakpo, Washington Redskins
9. Aldon Smith, San Francisco 49ers

Woodley seems to be the most underrated 34 OLB in the NFL. Until Suggs last two seasons I have had him (Woodley) ranked in the Top 3. But Suggs has actually improved his pass rushing so much over the last two seasons that he's now been in the argument for best defensive player in the NFL, let alone the best pass rusher or 34 OLB. His injury hurts him going into next season, but Suggs was arguably the best defensive player in the NFL last year. Hard to keep him out of the Top 3 for his position with that in mind. Aldon Smith was great, but he was great for a rookie. He's still a situational guy, but his talent and potential to be one of the best 34 OLBs in the NFL is certainly there. Right now he's a little too one dimensional (and hidden on a great defense) for me to put him ahead of some of the elite OLBs or guys just a notch below elite.


ILB

1. Patrick Willis, San Francisco 49ers
2. Derrick Johnson, Kansas City Chiefs
3. Lawrence Timmons, Pittsburgh Steelers
4. London Fletcher, Washington Redskins
5. Ray Lewis, Baltimore Ravens
6. NaVorro Bowman, San Francisco 49ers
7. David Harris, New York Jets
8. Jerod Mayo, New England Patriots
9. Sean Lee, Dallas Cowboys
10. Brian Cushing, Houston Texans


CB

1. Darrelle Revis, New York Jets
2. Joe Haden, Cleveland Browns
3. Jonathon Joseph, Houston Texans
4. Charles Woodson, Green Bay Packers
5. Carlos Rogers, San Francisco 49ers
6. Brandon Carr, Dallas Cowboys
7. Nnamdi Asomugah, Philadelphia Eagles
8. Brandon Flowers, Kansas City Chiefs
9. Corey Webster, New York Giants
10. Ladarius Webb, Baltimore Ravens


S

1. Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh Steelers
2. Dashon Goldson, San Francisco 49ers
3. Ed Reed, Baltimore Ravens
4. Earl Thomas, Seattle Seahawks
5. Eric Weddle, San Diego Chargers
6. Eric Berry, Kansas City Chiefs
7. George Wilson, Buffalo Bills
8. Patrick Chung, New England Patriots
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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A lot of you have Kevin Williams way too high. He's not nearly the player he used to be.
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:19 PM    (permalink
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If you don't think Peppers is making the Hall of Fame, then there aren't any DEs from the 00s that will (Strahan is the only DE that I think you could say was better than him without hesitating). Peppers is one of the most respected players in the game (especially at his position), and has been for about a decade now. I get the motor concern, but that is mostly overblown due to his one terrible season in Carolina when he couldn't beat TEs off the edge (when he had 2 or 2.5 sacks during the entire season). But he has been playing like a defensive MVP since he stepped foot in Chicago. He was even named NFC Defensive Player of the Year while in Carolina. He has 100 career sacks, 7 Pro Bowls, 5 All Pro's. He's been to a Super Bowl... And he's not done. He's still playing some of his best football with no talent around him on the front line. He's going to be a Hall of Famer, probably a first ballot guy.

I won't be surprised if he ends his career as a HOFer. I'm just not ready to put him there right here right now. He still has more to do before he's in the hall. Will he get there? Probably.

But if he played the game the way Jared Allen plays it, the guy would be an instant HOF player this very second, and would probably be in the conversation with Reggie White and Deacon Jones as GOAT for DEs. He had that kind of potential.
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:51 PM    (permalink
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If you don't think Peppers is making the Hall of Fame, then there aren't any DEs from the 00s that will (Strahan is the only DE that I think you could say was better than him without hesitating). Peppers is one of the most respected players in the game (especially at his position), and has been for about a decade now. I get the motor concern, but that is mostly overblown due to his one terrible season in Carolina when he couldn't beat TEs off the edge (when he had 2 or 2.5 sacks during the entire season). But he has been playing like a defensive MVP since he stepped foot in Chicago. He was even named NFC Defensive Player of the Year while in Carolina. He has 100 career sacks, 7 Pro Bowls, 5 All Pro's. He's been to a Super Bowl... And he's not done. He's still playing some of his best football with no talent around him on the front line. He's going to be a Hall of Famer, probably a first ballot guy.
125 sacks seems to be the magic number for HoF pass rushers (at least since they started recording sacks). Leslie O'Neal looks like the only guy to hit that mark who probably won't get in. Likewise, only a couple of modern pass rushers have gotten in without hitting the 125 mark.

Peppers will probably get there, but he's hardly a slam dunk at this point.

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Old 05-11-2012, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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People are going to read this post and disregarded it as blatant homerism but I don't care.

David Harris is unquestionably better than Jerod Mayo and I have no idea how anybody can watch both players and come away thinking Mayo is better.

That is all.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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Adrian Wilson doesn't belong on these lists.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:35 PM    (permalink
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I know Aldon Smith had a great rookie season and all but seeing him on top 5 lists for 34 OLB is really hard to justify IMO. He only played about half the defensive snaps for the 9ers and was rarely on the field in obvious running situations. To me, the top five, in any order, are far and away DeMarcus Ware, Tamba Hali, Cameron Wake, James Harrison, and Clay Matthews. Obviously Terrell Suggs would slot in there depending on whether you consider him a DE or OLB as he plays arguably the truest hybrid DE/OLB of anyone in the league.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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Love Tuck but I understand why people have left him off after last year and I don't have a problem with it. When healthy he's top 5 easily but we don't see it often.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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Peppers, Allen, and Pierre Paul should show up on all 43 DE lists.

I'm actually surprised that Woodson/Williams weren't on any non-Packer fan lists. They both had a ton of momentum going into last year. I guess it makes sense though because our defense was torched but it was mostly because of lack of anything in the front 7 other than Raji and Matthews, which brings me to Raji. Where is he on these lists? I have a hard time believing he isn't a top 5 NT/DE, something.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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I was ready for my Tamba Hali rant but he is getting some love so carry on.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:09 AM    (permalink
TheFinisher
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Jay Ratliff has become pretty overrated and does not belong on any top 5 list. He was unique at the position when he was younger and still had that athleticism to consistently beat C/Gs to get in the backfield, it was pretty special. He would still struggle when asked to handle double teams but you accepted it because of his unusual ability to penetrate. However, he's really declined athletically over the past 3 years and no longer threatens the A Gap. Now he's just a very undersized NT who struggles holding the point, gets worn down by Halftime, and offers little in pass rushing situations... remember all the Dallas fans that wanted to draft a DL to generate more interior pressure?

Just off the top of my head; Raji, Wilfork, Sopoaga, Pouha, Soliai, and Garay are all true 34 NTs I'd take on my team before Ratliff. He's just living off name recognition at this point.


On another note, I'm happy to see Sean Lee getting a little love. He definitely deserves top 5 consideration at ILB, I think most Cowboy fans would agree that he was our best defensive player last season... and that includes DWare.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:13 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
Ed Reed is one of the greatest players in NFL history but AT THIS POINT IN TIME he is not near the No. 1 safety in the NFL. Sooooo... lifetime achievement, fine, but there are definitely a bunch of safeties I'd rather have than him RIGHT NOW.
Yes but this again isn't a this year thing.

Also, I still don't think you could count him out of say, a top 10. There just aren't enough good safeties in this league.

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Originally Posted by gsorace View Post
People are going to read this post and disregarded it as blatant homerism but I don't care.

David Harris is unquestionably better than Jerod Mayo and I have no idea how anybody can watch both players and come away thinking Mayo is better.

That is all.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:10 AM    (permalink
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Edge Players (43 DEs, 34 OLBs)

1. Jason Pierre-Paul
2. Jared Allen
3. Terrell Suggs
4. Demarcus Ware
5. Julius Peppers
6. James Harrison
7. Mario Williams
8. Tamba Hali
9. Trent Cole
10. Jason Babin

Interior Lineman (43 DTs, 34 DEs, 34 NTs)

1. Justin Smith
2. Haloti Ngata
3. Ndamukong Suh
4. Calais Campbell
5. Vince Wilfork
6. Darnell Dockett
7. Richard Seymour
8. B.J. Raji
9. Geno Atkins
10. Phil Taylor

Linebackers (43 M/W/S, 34 ILBs)

1. Patrick Willis
2. Brian Cushing
3. Navarro Bowman
4. Derrick Johnson
5. Lance Briggs
6. Lawrence Timmons
7. Ray Lewis
8. Brian Urlacher
9. David Harris
10. Jon Beason

Cornerbacks

1. Darrelle Revis
2. Johnathan Joseph
3. Nnamdi Asomugha
4. Joe Haden
5. Ladarius Webb
6. Brandon Flowers
7. Champ Bailey
8. Brandon Carr
9. Carlos Rogers
10. Corey Webster

Safeties

1. Troy Polamalu
2. Eric Weddle
3. Ed Reed
4. Eric Berry
5. George Wilson
6. Earl Thomas
7. Dashon Goldson
8. Tyvon Branch
9. Kam Chancellor
10. Jairus Byrd
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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I'm going to break step and actually make an argument for my guy.

Trent Cole is being underrated in this thread. Perhaps some of you need to see more Trent Cole because let me tell you, he is dominant. Let me say this again: In the past five years, Trent Cole has 55 sacks (thats 11 per year). Do you know who has more in that same time frame? Jared Allen and DeMarcus Ware. That. Is. It.

Year in and year out, there's Trent Cole, producing. In the past five years he's never had less than 9 sacks and he's only missed three games. Who else has that sort of reliability and consistency? Nobody.
  • Each of the past three years he's been top five in total QB disruptions. He was fifth in 2011 despite missing two games. He was third in 2010. He was fifth in 2009. And that includes 3-4 outside linebackers. If you were to only include 4-3 ends Trent Cole would've placed 3rd in 2011, 2nd in 2010 and 4th in 2009. Even when he's not putting up sacks, he's making an impact.
  • He's been top seven in stops per snap played over the past three years. He was 7th in 2011, 4th in 2010 and 4th in 2009. He's not just a pass rusher, he's a run stopper too.
  • In total stops he was 10th in 2011 despite playing significantly fewer snaps than anyone else in the top ten. He was third in 2009. He was fourth in 2008.
  • When teams ran to Trent Cole's side in 2011 they averaged 2.42 yards per carry, the second best mark in the NFL. In 2010 teams averaged 3.04 yards per carry when running behind the left tackle. In 2009 opponents averaged 2.7 yards when running left, the third best mark in the NFL.
  • Despite gaudy sack numbers from Jason Babin, Trent Cole is the straw the stirs the drink. Trent Cole consistently demanded more attention and freed up Jason Babin. In two games without Trent Cole the Eagles put up three sacks. In the other 14 games with Trent Cole the Eagles averaged 3 sacks per game.

I don't know what else he has to prove to prove that he's better than Julius Peppers, Dwight Freeney and Mario Williams. He consistently out performs them on the field. Is it because he's not 6'6" with freakish workout numbers? Less media hype? You'll be hard pressed to find me any player in the NFL that plays as hard as Trent Cole, is as polished as Trent Cole and has the same amount of skill set diversity. Trent Cole can go around you. He can go through you. He can do whatever you ask and he's done it for years now.

I just don't understand it, Cole is a premier player in this league and people continue to slight him (at least in my eyes). He's better than Julius Peppers, Dwight Freeney and Mario Williams. And I'd argue that Trent Cole is better than James Harrison and Tamba Hali too, Harrison and Hali wouldn't be nearly as effective in a 4-3 as Trent Cole is but Trent Cole could sure as hell play in a 3-4 defense IMO.

And to the people who prefer Justin Tuck: He has 44.5 sacks the past five years, a full 10.5 less than Trent Cole (Tuck has missed 4 games, Cole: three). And check the run support numbers as well, they don't match up. Cole is better. Plus Tuck matches up against guards often whereas Trent Cole makes his living solely against left tackles.

Anyways, carry on.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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Honestly, I don't see an issue with having Trent Cole in the top 5. I too think he is awesome and underrated due to not having the perfect measurables of some of the other guys. I don't necessarily know if I'd put him top 2, but IMO you could certainly debate the 3-6. There is no set order for this, with many personal biases and assumptions (yes, I know you haven't watched all the snaps for all the guys) for each ranking anyway. At least there is detail supporting the Cole claim. I don't point 'homer' on this one.

Remember when there was all this discussion of Aso > Revis? Seem long gone. Let's see how Aso and others on the Eagles rebound from last seasons disaster.

I am very intrigued to see Aldon Smith this season. Von Miller was obviously awesome, but I want to see how Smith develops. He was dominant in the playoffs. Let's see how his overall game improves this season start to finish.

Lastly, I'm intruiged to see more of Sean Lee. He was outstanding last season and should be in the discussions to get in the back half of lists I think. He is very solid in coverage and appears to be a playmaker. He surprises people and I think can be a guy who quietly sits around 4-6 for a long while.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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I honestly can't believe Brandon Carr is making any top 5 list. He wasn't even the best corner on the Chiefs, Brandon Flowers was, and it wasn't close. Ugh. If Carr was still a Chief he'd be nowhere on any top 5 lists, but because he's a Cowboy he's a top 5 corner?

Also, my boy Derrick Johsnon should be getting a lot more love for 3-4 ILBs. Just sayin.
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Old 05-12-2012, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bixby View Post
I'm going to break step and actually make an argument for my guy.

Trent Cole is being underrated in this thread. Perhaps some of you need to see more Trent Cole because let me tell you, he is dominant. Let me say this again: In the past five years, Trent Cole has 55 sacks (thats 11 per year). Do you know who has more in that same time frame? Jared Allen and DeMarcus Ware. That. Is. It.

Year in and year out, there's Trent Cole, producing. In the past five years he's never had less than 9 sacks and he's only missed three games. Who else has that sort of reliability and consistency? Nobody.
  • Each of the past three years he's been top five in total QB disruptions. He was fifth in 2011 despite missing two games. He was third in 2010. He was fifth in 2009. And that includes 3-4 outside linebackers. If you were to only include 4-3 ends Trent Cole would've placed 3rd in 2011, 2nd in 2010 and 4th in 2009. Even when he's not putting up sacks, he's making an impact.
  • He's been top seven in stops per snap played over the past three years. He was 7th in 2011, 4th in 2010 and 4th in 2009. He's not just a pass rusher, he's a run stopper too.
  • In total stops he was 10th in 2011 despite playing significantly fewer snaps than anyone else in the top ten. He was third in 2009. He was fourth in 2008.
  • When teams ran to Trent Cole's side in 2011 they averaged 2.42 yards per carry, the second best mark in the NFL. In 2010 teams averaged 3.04 yards per carry when running behind the left tackle. In 2009 opponents averaged 2.7 yards when running left, the third best mark in the NFL.
  • Despite gaudy sack numbers from Jason Babin, Trent Cole is the straw the stirs the drink. Trent Cole consistently demanded more attention and freed up Jason Babin. In two games without Trent Cole the Eagles put up three sacks. In the other 14 games with Trent Cole the Eagles averaged 3 sacks per game.

I don't know what else he has to prove to prove that he's better than Julius Peppers, Dwight Freeney and Mario Williams. He consistently out performs them on the field. Is it because he's not 6'6" with freakish workout numbers? Less media hype? You'll be hard pressed to find me any player in the NFL that plays as hard as Trent Cole, is as polished as Trent Cole and has the same amount of skill set diversity. Trent Cole can go around you. He can go through you. He can do whatever you ask and he's done it for years now.

I just don't understand it, Cole is a premier player in this league and people continue to slight him (at least in my eyes). He's better than Julius Peppers, Dwight Freeney and Mario Williams. And I'd argue that Trent Cole is better than James Harrison and Tamba Hali too, Harrison and Hali wouldn't be nearly as effective in a 4-3 as Trent Cole is but Trent Cole could sure as hell play in a 3-4 defense IMO.

And to the people who prefer Justin Tuck: He has 44.5 sacks the past five years, a full 10.5 less than Trent Cole (Tuck has missed 4 games, Cole: three). And check the run support numbers as well, they don't match up. Cole is better. Plus Tuck matches up against guards often whereas Trent Cole makes his living solely against left tackles.

Anyways, carry on.
The last time I tried to say that it was even arguable that Trent Cole was better than Mario Williams I became the laughing stock of the thread. I don't know what it is about Cole but he continues to get criminally under-rated on these forums.

Anyway, no one should be putting Jason Babin above Cole on their lists.

Look at their stats from 2009 when both were on the same team for the first time (in a more tradition 4-3 defensive front)

Cole - 12.5 sacks, 57 tackles
Babin - 2.5 sacks, 12 tackles

Sure, Cole was a starter and Babin a backup (to Juqua Parker), but the eagles rotate their DEs so much that their number of snaps were probably a lot closer than you would think (though I can't find the exact numbers so I may be wrong).
The point is, I love Babin, but he's a one-dimensional system DE. He lines up wide and runs full speed around the RT on damn near every play, which is why he can rack up sacks so well. The man should give Jim Washburn his first born child because he would probably still be a journeyman (and a hell of a lot poorer) without him.
Cole is a complete DE who could thrive in any 4-3 defense in the NFL.
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