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View Poll Results: What did you think of the Bruce Irvin pick?
Bad pick because there were MANY better players, including pass rushers, on the board. 32 28.57%
Bad pick because of his character red flags. He'll do something stupid. 5 4.46%
Bad pick because he's simply not that good/a development project. 6 5.36%
Bad pick because he's developmental AND has character issues. Too risky. He'll flame out. 26 23.21%
Good pick, but one or two other DEs would have been better. 21 18.75%
Great pick, best pass rusher. NFL knew, media didn't. Perfect fit. He'll prove 'em all wrong. 22 19.64%
Voters: 112. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-01-2012, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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can't quote the thread because it's locked but
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/show...0&#post2886710
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Haven't a clue how Irvin will turn out but i'm pretty sure that Michael Floyd and David DeCastro will be stars. Seattle needed to address the offensive side of the ball first.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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Brandon Thompson #63 washed down Irvin on several occasions forced him to over pursue the QB on several occasions (or he did it himself)



I want you to concentrate on the run plays for a moment. Washed down, out of position, I think pancaked.


He looks great in this one but take note. Where is he lining up on this one? Most of the time he is lining up wide 9 which is more similar to what a 3-4 OLB would line up as oppose to a 4-3 anything. Which explains many things.

7 teams had him rated in the top 15 if you believe the PFT report.
The ones we know of are...
Seahawks
Jets
49ers
(bears?)
I'd be willing to bet the other 3 are 3-4 teams as well.

Drafting a player who is suck a liability against the run in the top 15 is vastly overvaluing him specially in a division that is rather run heavy being the 49ers (one of the best run teams in the league) The Cards ( who may start running much more if Wells and Williams can stay healthy and Kolb continues to suck) and the Rams (Steven Jackson anyone?) Will he close out a 3rd and long sure but is that worth a top 15 pick?
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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I've been a Bruce Irvin fan throught the draft process. I really wanted him on the Cowboys and would've used as early as a 2nd round pick on him. When Seattle drafted him, it was surprising for sure... but I'm not gonna bash them for taking him. He has insane upside and if you are bashing him because of the limitations you saw on him in college, then that might be your own mistake. Irvin will continue to grow as a player in both skill and stature. I really wouldn't doubt it if he became one of the best pass rushers in the league among the likes of Demarcus Ware. Pass rushing is a skill that commonly translates from college to the pros, so I think Irvin has a great chance at success in the NFL.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
I've been a Bruce Irvin fan throught the draft process. I really wanted him on the Cowboys and would've used as early as a 2nd round pick on him. When Seattle drafted him, it was surprising for sure... but I'm not gonna bash them for taking him. He has insane upside and if you are bashing him because of the limitations you saw on him in college, then that might be your own mistake. Irvin will continue to grow as a player in both skill and stature. I really wouldn't doubt it if he became one of the best pass rushers in the league among the likes of Demarcus Ware. Pass rushing is a skill that commonly translates from college to the pros, so I think Irvin has a great chance at success in the NFL.
Here is the ultimate problem. You talk about how great he would have been on the Cowboys and compare him to D-Ware (which is a reach IMO) it tells me that he is a 3-4 player. If he got drafted in the 3-4 I'd have no problem with it.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Like fans know a good pick when they see one. Of course, he has talent and certainly speed but he is as raw as a prospect can get, has a criminal past, played part time for his college team. He is the very definition of a workout warrior who will either bust or produce but at #15, that is a pretty high risk IMO. Round 2, I can see the risk vs reward principal but at #15, it is just not worth it when you can get a pretty solid pro prospect who carries minimal risk.

Personally, I like Carroll so I hope it works out for him but I see absolutely no way he can justify this pick at #15.
Wasn't about "fans knowing good picks," in general, more in in reference to draftniks. It was that people like me, who follow the draft and know a bit about football, aren't just pumping up whatever player our team picked. The folks who watch the Seahawks play every week know there's a role in our defense just waiting for a guy like Bruce Irvin. That's all I meant.

And please, can we stop talking about how he was an idiot teenager 4 or 5 years ago as if he was running a mafia operation? He was a ******* hoodlum kid who ran with the drug crowd, but he realized it wasn't going anywhere good and got himself around better people.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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Brandon Thompson #63 washed down Irvin on several occasions forced him to over pursue the QB on several occasions (or he did it himself)



I want you to concentrate on the run plays for a moment. Washed down, out of position, I think pancaked.


He looks great in this one but take note. Where is he lining up on this one? Most of the time he is lining up wide 9 which is more similar to what a 3-4 OLB would line up as oppose to a 4-3 anything. Which explains many things.

7 teams had him rated in the top 15 if you believe the PFT report.
The ones we know of are...
Seahawks
Jets
49ers
(bears?)
I'd be willing to bet the other 3 are 3-4 teams as well.

Drafting a player who is suck a liability against the run in the top 15 is vastly overvaluing him specially in a division that is rather run heavy being the 49ers (one of the best run teams in the league) The Cards ( who may start running much more if Wells and Williams can stay healthy and Kolb continues to suck) and the Rams (Steven Jackson anyone?) Will he close out a 3rd and long sure but is that worth a top 15 pick?
For the most part, I agree with your analysis of his performance in those games.

However, the Seahawks boast one of the leagues top run-stuffing defenses, and in his first season, Irvin likely won't need to play the run much. Their No. 2 need behind MLB was situational pass rusher/backup LEO/potential future replacement for Chris Clemons.

Also, the scheme is a hybrid. He will not be matched up against guards ever again in his life. Or in a 3-man front on anything other than 3rd and forever. He'll play 7-8-9, standing up, etc. And he's got the frame to get bigger and stronger and the toughness and relentlessness to improve against the run. But for his first year, he may be a liability, but he won't be counted on to help the already stout run D.

It's obvious he needs refinement. But the tools are scary. In a class with a bunch of pass rushers with question marks, I don't think he's a bad choice, especially considering the defense he was drafted to in terms of personnel, coaches maximizing potential, and scheme.

But kudos for bringing a thought-out argument with some basis to the table.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Here is the ultimate problem. You talk about how great he would have been on the Cowboys and compare him to D-Ware (which is a reach IMO) it tells me that he is a 3-4 player. If he got drafted in the 3-4 I'd have no problem with it.
If you think the base scheme will be the end all to him, then I think you'll be sorely mistaken. I think people too often look at the base scheme and then proceed to judgement, when the fact of the matter a team may only run their base 30 or 50% of the time. The Seahawks are gonna find ways to put Irvin in a favorable position to succeed. There's no doubt about it. If they find Irvin is more successful playing OLB in a 3-4 formation, then they will probably run more of those kinds of packages. It's not like teams don't change formations during the game, and it's not like it's impossible for him to be useful in a 4-3 either.

...and I was only comparing Irvin to Ware as a pass rusher, not an all around player.

That said, I respect your opinion. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this particular topic.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
Wasn't about "fans knowing good picks," in general, more in in reference to draftniks. It was that people like me, who follow the draft and know a bit about football, aren't just pumping up whatever player our team picked. The folks who watch the Seahawks play every week know there's a role in our defense just waiting for a guy like Bruce Irvin. That's all I meant.

And please, can we stop talking about how he was an idiot teenager 4 or 5 years ago as if he was running a mafia operation? He was a ******* hoodlum kid who ran with the drug crowd, but he realized it wasn't going anywhere good and got himself around better people.
Based on a Yahoo pre-draft feature, I believe this assessment of his character is spot-on. I actually think he might be more high-character based on how he completely changed his life and worked hard to get to where he is after coming from a rough background.

Then he messed up and allegedly broke a sign the night of his pro day. I'd guess he was drunk and broke a sign. Stupid, sure. But obviously some teams didn't care much. It wasn't drug trafficking or even assault.

Raise your hand if you've never done something stupid and/or violent while drunk partying in college...
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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"The best pass rusher on the team is usually the defensive end to the open side of the field. That puts him on the quarterback's blind side and makes him a C gap player in this defense. We often align him wider than this in order to give him a better angle of attack and allow him to play in space. We align him a yard outside of the offensive tackle most of the time. He has to play C gap run support but at the same time he is rushing the passer like it is third and ten. He has to be able to close down however if the tackle blocks down on him."

"(He) has to be one of your best football players. Size does not matter as much. We want an athletic player who can move around."
- Pete Carroll on Leo Position http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/7/22/...defensive-ends

I think that could be the knock on Irvin. Will he be able to consistently disengage the tackle or even a double team to his side. His tape would say that's not his strong suit but that was playing a down lineman for the first time in a 3-3-5.

In 2010, Bruce came into WVU and played around 235 lbs. He was used as a pass rush specialist since he really didn't have time to even learn a position. His relentless motor and abilities allowed him to get 14 sacks, mostly all on passing situations when the team knew they needed to block him.

In 2011, our depth at the DE spot was non-existent. The coaches asked him if he would bulk up a bit to see if he could keep his speed. He lost a little ability but settled at 245 playing weight which he is now and was able to keep his edge. He really was never coached to the position however in our 3-3-5. He knew his assignments and wasn't the greatest against the run but the value of him as a pass rusher forced us to play him on running downs to get best use of him; due to the lack of depth on our roster.

So, basically like some are saying I think his talents best suited him for an OLB position in a 3-4 where his deficiencies could be masked easier but I do think Seattle got the best pure pass rusher in this draft. The question will be how much they ask Bruce to add on to his frame and how much is sustainable. Can he play at 255-260 and still keep his edge? I'm not sure but I do know that for now he can come in and definitely have an impact in this league. If the Seahawks use him as a rush specialist in certain situations and packages he will have the best opportunity to shine early on while he grows as a player and into his NFL frame.

I wouldn't doubt him at this point, the kid really is pretty new to the game and given some time and if coached right, could be one of the best. For now, we'll wait and see.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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- Pete Carroll on Leo Position http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/7/22/...defensive-ends

I think that could be the knock on Irvin. Will he be able to consistenly disengage the tackle or even a double team to his side. His tape would say that's not his strong suit but that was playing a down lineman for the fisrt time in a 3-3-5.

In 2010, Bruce came into WVU and played around 235 lbs. He was used as a pass rush specialist since he really didn't have time to even learn a position. His relentless motor and abilities allowed him to get 14 sacks, mostly all on passing situations when the team knew they needed to block him.

In 2011, our depth at the DE spot was non-existent. The coaches asked him if he would bulk up a bit to see if he could keep his speed. He lost a little ability but settled at 245 playing weight which he is now and was able to keep his edge. He really was never coached to the position however in our 3-3-5. He knew his assignments and wasn't the greatest against the run but the value of him as a pass rusher forced us to play him on running downs to get best use of him; due to the lack of depth on our roster.

So, basically like some our saying I think his talents best suited him for an OLB position in a 3-4 where his dificencies could be masked easier but I do think Seattle got the best pure pash rusher in this draft. The question will be how much they ask Bruce to add on to his frame and how much is sustainable. Can he play at 255-260 and still keep his edge? I'm not sure but I do know that for now he can come in and defintely have an impact in this league. If the Seahawks use him as a rush specialist in certain situations and packages he will have the best opportunity to shine early on while he grows as a player and into his NFL frame.

I wouldn't doubt him at this point, the kid really is pretty new to the game and given some time and if coached right, could be one of the best. For now, we'll wait and see.
Or this...

"The best pass rusher on the team is usually the defensive end to the open side of the field. That puts him on the quarterback's blind side and makes him a C gap player in this defense. We often align him wider than this in order to give him a better angle of attack and allow him to play in space. We align him a yard outside of the offensive tackle most of the time. He has to play C gap run support but at the same time he is rushing the passer like it is third and ten. He has to be able to close down however if the tackle blocks down on him."

"(He) has to be one of your best football players. Size does not matter as much. We want an athletic player who can move around."

If you want to knock him as a player based on his performance at WVU, that's fine. He's raw and has flaws in his game.

But the 'It's not worth it, situational pass rusher, bad run defender, too small, doesn't work in a 4-3, out of position', yada, yada, yada is all horse ****.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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Or this...

"The best pass rusher on the team is usually the defensive end to the open side of the field. That puts him on the quarterback's blind side and makes him a C gap player in this defense. We often align him wider than this in order to give him a better angle of attack and allow him to play in space. We align him a yard outside of the offensive tackle most of the time. He has to play C gap run support but at the same time he is rushing the passer like it is third and ten. He has to be able to close down however if the tackle blocks down on him."

"(He) has to be one of your best football players. Size does not matter as much. We want an athletic player who can move around."

If you want to knock him as a player based on his performance at WVU, that's fine. He's raw and has flaws in his game.

But the 'It's not worth it, situational pass rusher, bad run defender, too small, doesn't work in a 4-3, out of position', yada, yada, yada is all horse ****.
Just to be clear I'm not bashing him at all. I went to WVU so I'm kind of biased in my defense. I'm just trying to give you my best unbiased assessment of him, like I said in my post they got the best pass rusher and will find ways to use him the right way. I just think we was best suited for a traditional 3-4 scheme.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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Just to be clear I'm not bashing him at all. I went to WVU so I'm kind of biased in my defense. I'm just trying to give you my best unbiased assessment of him, like I said in my post they got the best pass rusher and will find ways to use him the right way. I just think we was best suited for a traditional 3-4 scheme.
You've been clear. I just think that Seattle's scheme/situation is the best possible fit considering he hasn't done much work standing up and won't be counted on to play the run effectively in his first season at all.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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You've been clear. I just think that Seattle's scheme/situation is the best possible fit considering he hasn't done much work standing up and won't be counted on to play the run effectively in his first season at all.
I though ex HC Green of Arizona summed it up pretty well on NFL Network today.
Irvin was rated to go in round 2 by almost every team and in round 1, you take round 1 talent, you shouldn't reach for a prospect especially at #15.
He felt, Pete Carroll interfered with his scouting department in Seattle's first 3 picks and called all the shots. He said from the GM's he talked to, Seattle's second round pick was rated to go in round 3 and Wilson was a round 4 prospect.
This is what often happens when you allow your team's HC to make picks like Carpenter last year. They draft for immediate need and put BPA to the side. Very few HC's have ever made good drafters, most have been flops in this department with a few good exceptions but they are rare.
Carroll will rise or fall on his drafting as will Seattle.
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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What do I think?



I think his strikes are pretty solid, but his throws and wake-up game are severly lacking.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:04 AM    (permalink
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...sct=nfl_t11_a0

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The Seahawks have a plan and a vision for Irvin, 24, who played only two years of Division-I football following a checkered adolescence. He'll back up end Chris Clemons (11 sacks last season) at the "Leo" position, then play opposite of Clemons on pass-rushing downs.

The Leo position is similar to the old elephant position that Leslie O'Neal (Chargers), Fred Dean (49ers), Charles Haley (Cowboys) and Bryce Paup (Packers) played. Essentially, it's a 3-4 outside linebacker who rushes the passer about 75 percent of the time. The Leo lines up on the open side, away from the tight end.
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"I heard the media refer to him as a one-trick pony," said Kirelawich, now an assistant coach at Arizona. "I told the guys in Seattle that the golden goose was a one-trick goose. We'd all like to have one, wouldn't we?

"If you had a guy you thought could get you off the field on third down, and be pretty damn effective at it, that's the guy I want on my team. He'll learn to play the run. He'll get better."

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The Seahawks have measured Irvin at just over 6-foot-3 and 248 pounds -- 75 pounds less than Red Bryant, their run-stopping end. While Irvin is too light and too raw to anchor against the run, he has the speed to make pass protectors quiver in their stances. His 4.46 40-time at the NFL Scouting Combine was the fastest among defensive linemen, and his 6.70 in the three-cone drill was the fastest of ANY player.
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"Football saved my life. I'm going to bust my butt and work hard in everything I do. I'd rather die than prove [the doubters] right."
If he busts due to lack of work ethic, then he just played the **** out of SI.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:10 AM    (permalink
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Or he's gonna pull a Gaines Adams.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:20 AM    (permalink
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They gifted Los Yets quite possibly the most talented and productive pass rusher in the draft, though the lazy SOB did lose 2.5 sacks as a senior. To the Seahawks I offer my thanks.
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Old 05-20-2012, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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I didn't think it was a bad pick. He was widely considered the best pass rusher in the draft. So why was it such a shock that he went that early in the 1st round? It's a passing league, and he's the best pass rusher in the draft. He is valued as a 1st rounder in my eyes for that reason alone.

I think the term "situational pass rusher" no longer applies in the NFL. If anything, we have situational run stuffers in the league, but if you rush the passer, and you do it well, your value is very high.

Did I think it was a reach? Yes based on what I heard on TV, but did it surprise me? Absolutely not. He's not a finished product, but he can rush the passer with the best of them, the rest just needs to be refined. If he can keep his head straight, this will wind up being a great draft pick.

Most internet draft boards don't really know what they're talking about. That's the truth. That's one thing I learned over the past 3 years, we all act like we know what we're talking about, but we don't really know ****.
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Old 05-20-2012, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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I didn't think it was a bad pick. He was widely considered the best pass rusher in the draft. So why was it such a shock that he went that early in the 1st round? It's a passing league, and he's the best pass rusher in the draft. He is valued as a 1st rounder in my eyes for that reason alone.

I think the term "situational pass rusher" no longer applies in the NFL. If anything, we have situational run stuffers in the league, but if you rush the passer, and you do it well, your value is very high.

Did I think it was a reach? Yes based on what I heard on TV, but did it surprise me? Absolutely not. He's not a finished product, but he can rush the passer with the best of them, the rest just needs to be refined. If he can keep his head straight, this will wind up being a great draft pick.

Most internet draft boards don't really know what they're talking about. That's the truth. That's one thing I learned over the past 3 years, we all act like we know what we're talking about, but we don't really know ****.
That right there is why the pick makes absolute sense. Teams spend so much time spread out to stop the pass that playing run first doesn't make sense. When teams like the giants win the superbowl with a defense that played a base nickel and had great success, criticizing a player as a situational pass rusher is just silly.
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Old 05-20-2012, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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Yea, if they really feel like he was the best pass rusher in the draft,why is it a reach?
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Old 05-20-2012, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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I didn't think it was a bad pick. He was widely considered the best pass rusher in the draft. So why was it such a shock that he went that early in the 1st round? It's a passing league, and he's the best pass rusher in the draft. He is valued as a 1st rounder in my eyes for that reason alone.

I think the term "situational pass rusher" no longer applies in the NFL. If anything, we have situational run stuffers in the league, but if you rush the passer, and you do it well, your value is very high.

Did I think it was a reach? Yes based on what I heard on TV, but did it surprise me? Absolutely not. He's not a finished product, but he can rush the passer with the best of them, the rest just needs to be refined. If he can keep his head straight, this will wind up being a great draft pick.

Most internet draft boards don't really know what they're talking about. That's the truth. That's one thing I learned over the past 3 years, we all act like we know what we're talking about, but we don't really know ****.
Meh I like the idea behind the pick...which you've outlined...and I do think he's amongst the best movers in this draft...I also think he really fits that role they had Clemons playing last year.

That said, I don't consider him the best pass rusher in the draft and I'm not so sure that was widely considered at all. He's amongst them and I guess that's all that really matters.
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Old 05-20-2012, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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Meh I like the idea behind the pick...which you've outlined...and I do think he's amongst the best movers in this draft...I also think he really fits that role they had Clemons playing last year.

That said, I don't consider him the best pass rusher in the draft and I'm not so sure that was widely considered at all. He's amongst them and I guess that's all that really matters.
This was a pretty mediocre pass rusher draft to be honest. I only liked Mercilus but he needed development, Chandler Jones was intriguing and I liked him for the Giants as a developmental guy but his lack of production was worrisome, and I liked Andre Branch as an Osi type of pass rusher and Curry as another potential Osi, but there was no slam dunk DE in this draft.

I think the problem is too often we're looking at these prospects as finished products. Don't look for refined traits, look for guys who have great ability and potential. The low ceiling high floor guys almost always wind up as mediocre NFL players, but are rated highly by the Mel Kipers of the world.

The NFL doesn't view those players the same way. Irvin was a guy with an explosive step, hands down the best first step in the draft, a frame that can grow, and a rawness that can be coached up.

Those traits make him the best pass rusher in the draft. You can teach moves, you can add weight, but you can't teach explosion. The rest of these pass rushers all had some significant flaws. That's why Irvin was the best.

I do like Mercilus a lot though, and Branch has potential as does Curry. Jones...depends on how he's used.

But I can understand the Irvin pick. It makes sense.
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Old 05-20-2012, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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Wow you sleep on Coples. I get that he's more complete/we rounded than those guys so no one calls him a pure pass rusher, but of the guys who can rush the passer he's probably the most talented of them all. He also happens to be the biggest, most productive, and most well rounded of the bunch.

I loved the Coples pick on draft night and the further away we are from the draft the more I like it. I consider it a gift from Pete Carroll to the Jets, making up for Mark Sanchez.

I like all those guys some, and I think Mercilus ended up with a coach who will really play him to his strengths. Jokes might be alright with Wilfork doing HOF level grunt work for him. Curry is easy to like and root for, and Branch has talents.

I think the Seahawks will fine with Irvin. They have a player like him already and have showed they know how to use that player. I can live with that turning out fine since the Jets got who they wanted. I don't see him as Ware 2.0 or anything, though he could be heck for passers.

Give me a choice of all of last years DEs and I take Coples first ten out of ten times.
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Old 05-20-2012, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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I actually question if Irvin has much room to add to his frame. His skills/talents project, but I'm not sure how much room he has to actually get bigger and better. I think he's a plug and play in one role and see what roles he learns to fill after pass rusher.
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