Can Matt Cassel take KC far ala Alex Smith in 2011?

[VernonLawson89]

Originally Posted by Splat

49ers fans have been acting like their team is the greatest thing since sliced bread all offseason.

Sounds about accurate

[Borat]

Well, you know, sliced bread is pretty damn impressive.

[KCStud]

Originally Posted by VAfy-ya

Okay, let's argue.....

Well let's break it down position by position.

QB-SF I'll give it to Smith since he's won playoff games.
RB-KC JC is a top 5 back and Hillis is a good player too.
OT-KC. Staley is just as good as Albert but no Davis isn't as good as Winston. Winston is an elite RT.
G-SF no question
C-SF
TE-SF no question
WR-KC. Bowe is better and more proven than all of the WR's in SF. Moss is past his prime and Bowe is in his prime right now.

DE-SF no question
DT-I'll say push it's close.
OLB-KC Tamba led AFC in sacks 2 years ago then barely lost out to Suggs. He is good for at least 12 a year. Houston will most likely get 10 this year too. He really came on in the 2nd half last year and was arguably the steal of the draft.
ILB-SF. DJ is the best ILB in the AFC (Ray Ray is too old now) and Willis is best in NFL. Bowman makes this SF's edge.
CB-KC Flowers, Routt and a bunch of quality depth.
S-KC Berry is a top 5 S and Lewis is solid himself.

[Bixby (Thumper)]

No, I do not think Matt Cassell can engineer the same sort of effort that Alex Smith did. In my opinion, the 49ers have a much stronger team as a whole. Stronger running game. More diverse passing weapons. Stronger defense. Muuuch stronger on special teams. Stronger coaching staff.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by KCStud

Well let's break it down position by position.

QB-SF I'll give it to Smith since he's won playoff games.
RB-KC JC is a top 5 back and Hillis is a good player too.
OT-KC. Staley is just as good as Albert but no Davis isn't as good as Winston. Winston is an elite RT.
G-SF no question
C-SF
TE-SF no question
WR-KC. Bowe is better and more proven than all of the WR's in SF. Moss is past his prime and Bowe is in his prime right now.

DE-SF no question
DT-I'll say push it's close.
OLB-KC Tamba led AFC in sacks 2 years ago then barely lost out to Suggs. He is good for at least 12 a year. Houston will most likely get 10 this year too. He really came on in the 2nd half last year and was arguably the steal of the draft.
ILB-SF. DJ is the best ILB in the AFC (Ray Ray is too old now) and Willis is best in NFL. Bowman makes this SF's edge.
CB-KC Flowers, Routt and a bunch of quality depth.
S-KC Berry is a top 5 S and Lewis is solid himself.

So Dwayne Bowe makes Kansas City's receiving corps better than everyone else on the 49ers squad combined? Who else do the Chiefs have as receivers? Breaston? Baldwin? They aren't necessarily better gamebreakers than Moss, Manningham, Crabtree, and Jenkins.

And Kansas City has better outside linebackers? Who other than Tamba Hali is a huge threat? Aldon Smith had more sacks than Hali playing part-time. And Brooks played at a Pro Bowl level last season.

And the 49ers don't have better corners? Rogers was a Pro Bowler last season. One that actually played like it. Tarrell Brown and Chris Culliver also played at a good level, especially Culiver who lined up against top receivers a good amount of the time. No one got smoked nearly all season.

Oh and as good as Eric Berry may be (he's coming back from a torn ACL) it was the Whitner and Goldson show all day last season.

Oh and special teams blows the Chiefs out of the water.

[descendency]

I think the Chiefs will benefit from their last place schedule, but I can't see them being a top 5 team in the NFL.

[VAfy-ya]

Originally Posted by KCStud

Well let's break it down position by position.

QB-SF I'll give it to Smith since he's won playoff games.
RB-KC JC is a top 5 back and Hillis is a good player too.
OT-KC. Staley is just as good as Albert but no Davis isn't as good as Winston. Winston is an elite RT.
G-SF no question
C-SF
TE-SF no question
WR-KC. Bowe is better and more proven than all of the WR's in SF. Moss is past his prime and Bowe is in his prime right now.

DE-SF no question
DT-I'll say push it's close.
OLB-KC Tamba led AFC in sacks 2 years ago then barely lost out to Suggs. He is good for at least 12 a year. Houston will most likely get 10 this year too. He really came on in the 2nd half last year and was arguably the steal of the draft.
ILB-SF. DJ is the best ILB in the AFC (Ray Ray is too old now) and Willis is best in NFL. Bowman makes this SF's edge.
CB-KC Flowers, Routt and a bunch of quality depth.
S-KC Berry is a top 5 S and Lewis is solid himself.

WR - From top to bottom, I think the Niner have the edge. No doubt Bowe is the best of the bunch but our 2nd and 3rd WRs will be Crabs and MM. To me, that is better than your 2nd and 3rd WR. And I really like Baldwin for the record. Bowe may be better than Moss but our #2 and #3 gives us a slight edge, if not makes it even.

OLB - I would say Hali and All-Done are about even. If he is good for at least 12 I would argue the same for Smith as at starter. I dont see how you could give the edge at LOLB to a Houston when he and Brooks had very similar numbers. Houston had 5 more tackles, Brooks had 1.5 more sacks. Haralson as a third rotational guy should give us the edge but I'll call it a wash.

CB - If you still had Carr, I'd surely give you the edge. Routt? Not even. Tarell Brown in his first year as a starter in Fangio scheme put up impressive numbers. Pro Bowl consideration numbers. I would expect his play to improve with another year in the scheme. And I would argue Cully is better than Arenas as the nickelback. I'll call Rogers and Flowers a wash.

S - If Berry is considsred top 5, so should Goldson. If were going by on field production, what Goldson did in 14 games was last year was impressive. No doubt about Berry's ability but Goldson gets overlooked. He's had two very good years sandwiched between a very medicore 2010 season when he played hurt most of the year and lost some of his mobility because of it. Its closer than most ppl think. Lewis and Whitner are a wash. I think Whitner is severly underated. His numbers dont really do justice to his impact on our defense. He's the main reason both Goldson and Rogers thrived last year on the back end. Goldson could finally go out and ball-hawk instead of trying to cover for the lack range guys like Taylor Mays, Michael Lewis, and Reggie Smith lacked at SS. And Whitner's ability to cover the deep half made it so that Rogers could be aggressive on the underneath routes and make plays on the ball.

[papa burgundy]

Originally Posted by Ness

So Dwayne Bowe makes Kansas City's receiving corps better than everyone else on the 49ers squad combined? Who else do the Chiefs have as receivers? Breaston? Baldwin? They aren't necessarily better gamebreakers than Moss, Manningham, Crabtree, and Jenkins.

And Kansas City has better outside linebackers? Who other than Tamba Hali is a huge threat? Aldon Smith had more sacks than Hali playing part-time. And Brooks played at a Pro Bowl level last season.

And the 49ers don't have better corners? Rogers was a Pro Bowler last season. One that actually played like it. Tarrell Brown and Chris Culliver also played at a good level, especially Culiver who lined up against top receivers a good amount of the time. No one got smoked nearly all season.

Oh and as good as Eric Berry may be (he's coming back from a torn ACL) it was the Whitner and Goldson show all day last season.

Oh and special teams blows the Chiefs out of the water.

The Chiefs WRs are better than the 49ers. Everything besides Bowe and Moss is a complete wash to me. After that it is only as close as Moss can make it to Bowe. If he's a complete disaster then it's really not that close at all. If Moss can be that #1 guy then it would be close, but I'd still take the 27 year old who I know what I'll get with over a 35 year old guy who could shut it down at any moment.

Also Ahmad Brooks wasn't playing at a Pro-Bowl level. He's a nice player .. could even go as far as say he is a very nice player, but he was not anywhere close to playing at a Pro-Bowl level last year. That said .. I think the OLBers are closer than the WRs. Right now I'd go:

Tamba Hali
Aldon Smith
Ahmad Brooks
Justin Houston

And sure a Chief fan could say that Houston will be better than Brooks after this year, but a Niner fan could also say that Aldon will be better than Tamba after this year. So it's really a wash to me.

[Brothgar]

I don't know why we are comparing Moss to Bowe. It doesn't make much sense in the grand scheme of the question that we have going on here. When we ask if the Chiefs can be this year's 49ers we should compare Bowe and Baldwin to Crabs and Ginn.

[nepg]

Yeah, this Chiefs rosters is A LOT better than last year's 49ers team. More talented pretty much across the board save for 1 DE spot, 1 G spot, and TE. Better RBs, better WRs, arguably better TE group, probably a better OL, similar DL, similar LB group (unless Houston makes the jump I think he'll make), and better secondary.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by papa burgundy

Also Ahmad Brooks wasn't playing at a Pro-Bowl level. He's a nice player .. could even go as far as say he is a very nice player, but he was not anywhere close to playing at a Pro-Bowl level last year. That said .. I think the OLBers are closer than the WRs. Right now I'd go:

You obviously didn't watch him play. Brooks was our best linebacker all round and yes he was playing at a Pro Bowl level last season, which is why he was actually selected as an alternate to the contest. He has the ability to be stout against the run and puts a good amount of pressure on the quarterback when he is asked to come off that edge. And he's not bad in coverage. He was an every down linebacker. It wasn't surprising he was the first priority in the offseason this year and got his deal done.

[49ersfan_87]

Originally Posted by SuperPacker

QB - Chiefs
RB - Chiefs
WR - Chiefs
TE - 49ers
OL - 49ers

DL - 49ers
LB - 49ers
CB - Chiefs
S - Chiefs

Both teams are very talented. Chiefs probably have a better defense, 49ers have a better defense. I like both teams to get far into the playoffs however.

This is all fair. I'd also say the 49ers have a better ST unit (very underrated component in their wins) and most importantly...a better coaching staff. Watch out for the 49ers RB's in the near future too, but for now you can't argue that they're better than the Chiefs in that area. Jamaal Charles is a player i sorely wish the 49ers had. WR, i'd say the Chiefs are barely better right now. Bowe is the difference maker but it remains to be seen what the additions of Moss, Manningham, and Jenkins combined with Crabtree will compare to Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin, and Wylie.

Originally Posted by Splat

49ers fans have been acting like their team is the greatest thing since sliced bread all offseason.

13-3 and OT away from the SB. That too against an opponent that won their 2 previous playoff games by a combined 39 points.

Some of the arrogance may be unwarranted, but they were damn good last year. Its not an exaggeration to say that they're a superbowl contender. Especially with a coach like Harbaugh.

[stlouisfan37]

Originally Posted by KCStud

Well let's break it down position by position.

QB-SF I'll give it to Smith since he's won playoff games.
RB-KC JC is a top 5 back and Hillis is a good player too.
OT-KC. Staley is just as good as Albert but no Davis isn't as good as Winston. Winston is an elite RT.
G-SF no question
C-SF
TE-SF no question
WR-KC. Bowe is better and more proven than all of the WR's in SF. Moss is past his prime and Bowe is in his prime right now.

DE-SF no question
DT-I'll say push it's close.
OLB-KC Tamba led AFC in sacks 2 years ago then barely lost out to Suggs. He is good for at least 12 a year. Houston will most likely get 10 this year too. He really came on in the 2nd half last year and was arguably the steal of the draft.
ILB-SF. DJ is the best ILB in the AFC (Ray Ray is too old now) and Willis is best in NFL. Bowman makes this SF's edge.
CB-KC Flowers, Routt and a bunch of quality depth.
S-KC Berry is a top 5 S and Lewis is solid himself.

When healthy, I think that Jamaal Charles is the most electrifying back in football. That being said, he has yet to prove he has returned to his old self after his injury. I am skeptical that he will be back to his old form this season, at least early on. Guys are recovering faster and faster from knee injuries, but they rarely get back the first season. Hillis hasn't done anything in over a year.

Gore is as steady as they come, Kendall Hunter is a nice complement, and they added Brandon Jacobs, who could easily add half a dozen scores. And they drafted LaMichael James, who could add another dimension to their passing game. So I think the 49ers have a strong advantage in this area going into the season.

As far as secondaries go, Kansas City allowed less passing yards but gave up more passing TD's, so I think it's a wash.

One more thing to consider is that San Francisco is returning 11 starters on defense, which is almost unheard of in today's game.

Other than those two areas I think your analysis is pretty accurate.

FWIW, I hate the 49ers, and before all the devastating injuries KC was one of my favorite teams to watch in the last couple of years. But I still believe in giving respect where it is due.

[stlouisfan37]

Originally Posted by Splat

49ers fans have been acting like their team is the greatest thing since sliced bread all offseason.

They've been acting that way since 1980...

[KCStud]

I think KC is so similar to SF.

Look at what they have in common.

-Top ten defense.
-Much improved OL.
-Dangerous weapons on the outside.
-Strong running game.

and most importantly, both teams have a QB who are almost essentially the same kind of QB. Mobile, need a good system and strong pieces to make them look better than they actually are.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by KCStud

I think KC is so similar to SF.

Look at what they have in common.

-Top ten defense.
-Much improved OL.
-Dangerous weapons on the outside.
-Strong running game.

and most importantly, both teams have a QB who are almost essentially the same kind of QB. Mobile, need a good system and strong pieces to make them look better than they actually are.

Except one team went 7-9 and the other went 13-3.

The 49ers have a better special teams unit and were also 1st in the NFL in turnover ratio, while the Chiefs were 18th. It's more than listing players names on paper as if they had ratings in Madden. The 49ers found ways to win last season on a consistent basis. The Chiefs haven't acquired that trait yet.

Originally Posted by stlouisfan37

They've been acting that way since 1980...

They aren't blacking out Rams games still are they?

[VAfy-ya]

Originally Posted by KCStud

I think KC is so similar to SF.

Look at what they have in common.

-Top ten defense.
-Much improved OL.
-Dangerous weapons on the outside.
-Strong running game.

and most importantly, both teams have a QB who are almost essentially the same kind of QB. Mobile, need a good system and strong pieces to make them look better than they actually are.

True but the biggest difference and the one no one is talking about is coaching. Without Harbaugh, we're right where you are last year. Injuries play a part but we lost two starters at WR for most of the year in Josh Morgan and Braylon Edwards and still won games. Willis missed some games, so did Goldson and guys stepped up and performed. I doubt anybody but Harbaugh could have gotten that team to perform at such a high level, every week. That's just a testment to what good coaching means in this league. Most of the players that ppl are now giving props to on our team are guys who previously played in spurts, or whose play varied from game to game. But our staff put ppl in a position to be successful and sustain success. That's very hard to do in this league. Finding good players is hard to do. But finding a good HC I think is harder. And I think we lucked out and found a very good one.

That being said, its not how much do you believe in Cassel having a turnaround. Because Cassel has already proven with players around him, he can perform. The question should be how much do you believe in Crennel? Do you believe that this man and his staff can get this team to perform at a high level, week in and week out?

[vidae]

Originally Posted by Ness

Except one team went 7-9 and the other went 13-3.

One team lost their two best players by week two and one didn't. We can play this game all day! Fun times!

[Ness]

Originally Posted by vidae

One team lost their two best players by week two and one didn't. We can play this game all day! Fun times!

So if Charles and Berry, a running back and a safety, aren't on the team it's over? There is no chance of a playoff run? The 49ers had the same roster from 2010 to 2011 virtually with their same "best players", yet they weren't winning games. The coaching was a huge difference as well. Like I said, it goes beyond listing individual players names and or "talent", which we had under Singletary. The 49ers were without Patrick Willis for three contests last season and the defense didn't skip a beat at his position. Larry Grant filled in nicely for a backup. Ain't no games being played here son like you're trying to insinuate. Like VAfy-ya said, guys got hurt, but others stepped up via quality depth. It's one thing to list talent, it's another to actually put it together and produce.

[FUNBUNCHER]

The reason why the Chiefs will be the surprise team of the NFL this season and one of the favorites to make it to the AFCG; Romeo Crennel.

Talent wise, this squad reminds me of the Pats SB teams(that won). Even better talent at some positions. Crennel is going to have that defense humming and if Baldwin really comes around in his sophomore NFL season along with Hillis re-establishing himself as one of the more dominant powerbacks in the league, the Chiefs offense is going to be formidable.

Crennel IMO knows what Cassel can and can't do well. Like Brady early in his career, it's not a winning formula expecting him to throw for 400+ yards and 3 TDs a game in order to get Ws.

KC is going to be an explosive/ball control offense and if Cassel can just be the Chiefs version of Alex Smith, move the chains, pick up first downs and hit the occasional deep ball when the play comes open, I have no problem envisioning the Chiefs winning the AFCW.

I don't know if Cassel is good enough to win a SB, but playing being a Romeo Crennel coached defense and a solid run game with two huge outside WRs to toss the ball to, Cassel is more than capable of winning a couple games in the playoffs.

[San Diego Chicken]

Give me Smith over Cassel all day every day. He's shown upward progression as a passer after the Nolan years, so it's a solid bet that he'll improve even more. He's playing with confidence and focus finally, which was his main thing. With Cassel, who the heck knows? Too inconsistent from game to game. Remember the utter stinkbomb of a performance in the 2011 playoffs? Smith played very very well against New Orleans, and while he was merely average against the Giants he didn't lose them the game, Kyle Williams did.

[FUNBUNCHER]

I can't give either Cassel or Alex Smith an advantage over the other. They cancel each other out.

EDIT: The Raider and SD still have good talent. Ingram and Jarret Johnson are huge pickups for the Bolts, who IMO had a hiccup last year. And I still believe Peyton Manning at 75-85% makes the Broncos a threat to beat anyone they play.

It may not be the best division in football, but the AFCW has to be one of the more competitive.

[San Diego Chicken]

Another thing, people look at these comparisons all wrong. Having talent at S or WR isn't as important as talent in the front seven. SF has 5 legit pro bowl caliber guys in the front seven, that's pretty damn good.

[San Diego Chicken]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

I can't give either Cassel or Alex Smith an advantage over the other. They cancel each other out.

I'm giving Smith the edge going into 2012 because he is still improving and Cassel is not.

[FUNBUNCHER]

I think Alex Smith is what he is. I don't think he's going to morph into a top 10 QB. He's steady and in the right system can be a decent signal caller, but I don't see much more upside.

I could be wrong though. Maybe Smith does have more room to improve in Harbaugh's offense, but it's not like he's going to wake up one day and be confused with Andrew Luck.

All Cassel needs to do is play well, for him, which is about 60% completions, 3500yds, 25 TDs and 12-15 INTs.

That's a dream season as of right now for Alex Smith.