2012 NFLDC Top 10 S - Page 5

Jughead10 · 06-25-2012, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ness

Really? That is the best you can do? Harbaugh wasn't even upset about it. But wait, it has to be by the logic you defined right? Because of this one mistake, he is still a selfish person, hasn't grown in his life as a player, and doesn't care about his team. Forget everything else. A 30 yard penalty changes a man. Yes. And Harbaugh has to talk to him like child. It can't possibly be the notion that Harbaugh was serious about that matter in the game, but decided to not be as enthusiastic. I guess Tony Dungy thought all of his players were moronic people by nature when they committed penalties because of the way he talked, which was quite soft spoken.

"See! See!!! I told you he was selfish!!! Look 30 yard penalty! That proves it!!!"

That was my point. Harbaugh didn't seem upset, which is very against his personality. It seemed like he was treating Vernon with kid gloves, because he could lose him. And don't compare that to Dungy who I don't think has ever raised his voice in his entire life. In the biggest game of his career Vernon Davis made two dumb penalties and it didn't see to bother him at all. No "Sorry coach, won't happen again". Even his own teammate later had to bring it up, again speaking to him like a child. It just seems to me he is fragile. Like they can't piss him off and call him on his BS because they are afraid they will completely lose him like Singletary did.

Ness · 06-25-2012, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jughead10

That was my point. Harbaugh didn't seem upset, which is very against his personality. It seemed like he was treating Vernon with kid gloves, because he could lose him. And don't compare that to Dungy who I don't think has ever raised his voice in his entire life. In the biggest game of his career Vernon Davis made two dumb penalties and it didn't see to bother him at all. No "Sorry coach, won't happen again". Even his own teammate later had to bring it up, again speaking to him like a child. It just seems to me he is fragile. Like they can't piss him off and call him on his BS because they are afraid they will completely lose him like Singletary did.

LOL how would you know Harbaugh's personality? You took a conversation out of context during the flow of the game and posted it as evidence to try and prove that Vernon Davis hasn't matured as a player and is a selfish indvidual.

I don't recall see Harbaugh giving hell to his players on the sideline on a routine basis. He isn't Singletary. Why can't I compare that to Dungy? He does raise his voice. At the officials. George Seifert was the same way with his players years back. Yeah I'm sure the 49ers are so afraid to lose Vernon Davis, that they are going to treat him as if he has a fragile psyche or is a headcase a la Terrell Owens. Yeah that coaching staff has no balls at all.

WCH · 06-25-2012, 07:41 PM

Those end zone celebration rules don't even have any logical consistency. If a guy celebrates a TD by going down on one knee to pray, it's cool; but if another player goes down on two knees and points at the sky, it's unsportsmanlike conduct. Vernon Davis jumping on the camera platform is an example of using a "prop," but the Packers get a free pass every time they celebrate with a Lambeau Leap. Okey dokey then...

Jughead10 · 06-25-2012, 07:42 PM

Just one outside perspective. I'm sure I'm not alone on that. I never realized 49ers became the sensitive fans on here.

Ness · 06-25-2012, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCH

Those end zone celebration rules don't even have any logical consistency. If a guy celebrates a TD by going down on one knee to pray, it's cool; but if another player goes down on two knees and points at the sky, it's unsportsmanlike conduct. Vernon Davis jumping on the camera platform is an example of using a "prop," but the Packers get a free pass every time they celebrate with a Lambeau Leap. Okey dokey then...

The Lambeau Leap has been "grandfathered in".

LOL since when, 1992?

Jughead10 · 06-25-2012, 07:44 PM

Well the other penalty was certainly the more egregious one.

Ness · 06-25-2012, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jughead10

Just one outside perspective. I'm sure I'm not alone on that. I never realized 49ers became the sensitive fans on here.

You can have your opinion on the matter. Other people having a similar opinion doesn't really boost your stance. Argumentum ad populum isn't a saving grace. I'm just debating your basis for your conclusion. Sensitivity has nothing to do with the issue.

Ness · 06-25-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jughead10

Well the other penalty was certainly the more egregious one.

Maybe. Doesn't mean Vernon's overall character is diminished because of it. That's like questioning Thurman Thomas and his integrity because he couldn't find his helmet on first play of the Super Bowl for the Bills' offense.

If I recall correctly Vernon was retaliating because Deon Grant shoved Anthony Davis in the face after Anthony Davis and I believe Michael Boley were in a tussle. Vernon shouldn't have done it, but it wasn't like he was deliberately going out of his way to take a cheap shot. He was trying to aid a teammate.

Regardless, that one incident doesn't prove anything and Vernon being a selfish person and/or headcase.

bigbluedefense · 06-25-2012, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ness

Didn't you just say that you watched a game from the 1994 season the other day with the Giants and Cowboys and claimed that a lot of schemes run now and days aren't all the different and when it comes down to it, players just have to execute?

Yes I did. Because the choice route concepts that NE runs have been around forever so the Choice Route offenses of today aren't any different from what we saw in the 80s in terms of depth.

But it's not the same as what SF runs. Schemes have been around forever, but not all schemes are the same. You're comparing a WCO to a Run N Shoot. That's like comparing a 3-4 to a Cover 2.

WCH · 06-25-2012, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ness

The Lambeau Leap has been "grandfathered in".

LOL since when, 1992?

I don't know which year LeRoy Butler originally did it, but it was popularized in '95. I remember the year, because Robert Brooks popularized it the year that he became "the man" after Sterling Sharpe had to retire (and Sterling retired after '94 -- I cried like a baby).

Ness · 06-25-2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

Yes I did. Because the choice route concepts that NE runs have been around forever so the Choice Route offenses of today aren't any different from what we saw in the 80s in terms of depth.

But it's not the same as what SF runs. Schemes have been around forever, but not all schemes are the same. You're comparing a WCO to a Run N Shoot. That's like comparing a 3-4 to a Cover 2.

Didn't Vafy-ya already say that he played under Martz though which did involve a complex offense. But there was never any mention of Martz or anyone saying Vernon was "too stupid" (or implications) to grasp the concepts. Vernon, like all of Martz's tight ends during the majority of his tenure in NFL coaching, has rarely used tight ends as he focal point of his offense.

Even if you want to say that Mike Martz's offense isn't the same as New England's, it's still complex as past players have attested to. Like Vafy-ya also said, this notion that Vernon Davis doesn't have the intelligence to operate in New England's offense, or any complicated offense for that matter is unfounded. Especially when you don't even know the person. The way you made it sound was as if it was a factual impossibility.

And I was never comparing San Francisco's offense to New England's.

WCH · 06-25-2012, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

Yes I did. Because the choice route concepts that NE runs have been around forever so the Choice Route offenses of today aren't any different from what we saw in the 80s in terms of depth.

But it's not the same as what SF runs. Schemes have been around forever, but not all schemes are the same. You're comparing a WCO to a Run N Shoot. That's like comparing a 3-4 to a Cover 2.

What are your opinions on the Packers version of the WCO vs the Run-N-Shoot? I've argued (in sports bars) that the McCarthy/Philbin system is basically a Run-N-Shoot system that uses WCO concepts and terminology, along with a little bit of the old Wishbone (just to spruce things up a bit, and typically using at least one TE as a FB in a "jumbo" package). I also argue that Philbin is the primary architect of the system.

ATLDirtyBirds · 06-25-2012, 08:32 PM

Well, this thread went down the shitter.

bigbluedefense · 06-25-2012, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ness

Didn't Vafy-ya already say that he played under Martz though which did involve a complex offense. But there was never any mention of Martz or anyone saying Vernon was "too stupid" (or implications) to grasp the concepts. Vernon, like all of Martz's tight ends during the majority of his tenure in NFL coaching, has rarely used tight ends as he focal point of his offense.

Even if you want to say that Mike Martz's offense isn't the same as New England's, it's still complex as past players have attested to. Like Vafy-ya also said, this notion that Vernon Davis doesn't have the intelligence to operate in New England's offense, or any complicated offense for that matter is unfounded. Especially when you don't even know the person. The way you made it sound was as if it was a factual impossibility.

And I was never comparing San Francisco's offense to New England's.

Let's talk about this in the TE thread.

bigbluedefense · 06-25-2012, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCH

What are your opinions on the Packers version of the WCO vs the Run-N-Shoot? I've argued (in sports bars) that the McCarthy/Philbin system is basically a Run-N-Shoot system that uses WCO concepts and terminology, along with a little bit of the old Wishbone (just to spruce things up a bit, and typically using at least one TE as a FB in a "jumbo" package). I also argue that Philbin is the primary architect of the system.

I haven't really studied the Packers offense in depth, so it's hard for me to comment on it.

I will say this though, most offenses in the league have their inside guys run an option.

But an option route and a choice route in the Run N Shoot are 2 different things. The complexity of the choice varies from offense to offense, down to how the defender is covering you, not just what coverage they're in. And the amount of choices a WR has depends on the individual offense as well. Run N Shoot guys typically have the most complexity in their choices.

It makes sense when you think about it. The slot is so difficult to defend, if you give that guy a choice/option to expose the defense he's practically uncoverable if he's reading it right. He has all that space to operate in, you don't want to restrict him.

WCH · 06-25-2012, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATLDirtyBirds

Well, this thread went down the shitter.

What did you expect? This is a S thread. If you're watching a game on TV, you have no idea what they're doing 90% of the time.

This is why all-22 footage rocks my socks.

TACKLE · 06-25-2012, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATLDirtyBirds

Well, this thread went down the shitter.

I believe the correct term is 'Spam Franned'.

Giantsfan1080 · 06-25-2012, 08:38 PM

I sure didn't expect it to turn into a Vernon Davis thread.

ATLDirtyBirds · 06-25-2012, 08:38 PM

I sure as hell didn't expect we'd dive into a pointless discussion/argument about Vernon Davis' IQ. I figured it'd be about the competency of Alex Smith.

Ness · 06-25-2012, 08:54 PM

All it takes to get back on track is to start talking about the premise of the thread again. It's not that complicated.

Tyvon Branch. Good thing the Raiders tagged him. He would have been a good acquisition for some teams via free agency. Apparently his coverage skills still need a good amount of work from what I've researched, but he's done pretty well with tight ends including shutting down Rob Gronkowski, Antonio Gates, and Owen Daniels.

WCH · 06-25-2012, 08:59 PM

Speaking of coaches film, I think that it's going to show that Charlie Peprah is a far more competent safety than people give him credit for. I certainly wouldn't put him in the top-ten, but I do think he's criminally underrated. He seems to be good and solid in every aspect of the position.

ATLDirtyBirds · 06-25-2012, 09:05 PM

Another safety I find to be criminally underrated: Dwight Lowery.

bigbluedefense · 06-25-2012, 09:37 PM

I like the SS from Cleveland too. Forgetting his name at the moment.

K Train · 06-25-2012, 09:56 PM

tj ward

i think morgan burnett could be a player to watch improve as well

Rosebud · 06-26-2012, 12:12 AM

Still pretty surprised neither of our safeties made the list since they've been playing at a very high level for some time now, Kenny being one of the league's best deep safeties, a task only Earl Thomas, and arguably Ed Reed, is/are better at it right now.

On the otherhand we have Rolle, who's versatility is exactly where the position is heading. As teams throw to their TEs and slot receivers more and more, having your "in the box" safety able to man up on all those different types of inside receivers will also become progressively more crucial. Then you add that he's a really good blitzer and tackler, so it's not like you're sacrificing in the box ability for those cover skills. Dre Kirkpatrick is going to really excel in a similar role with the Bengals once Zimmer gives him a shot at playing corner.

All this while Adrian Wilson and Troy Polamalu land in the top 5. Troy, I at least get, theoretically, if teams move away from the spread, and he gets a dominant front 7 again, he could be a beast again. I tend to think neither of those things is all that likely and Troy will get more and more exposed, especially as his body lets him down more and he becomes even more limited.

But Arian Wilson? We are in the year 2012 right? The hell?