Historical Figures Game Sign-Up

[Dr. Gonzo]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

people are afraid to make mistakes. they need to realize that losing a townie isnt the worst thing in the world.

Yes they do. Right now though the mafia just needs to go along with certain townies and call anybody who is active and calling people out suspicious. It has led to inactivity and people not having any balls. I am completely with you, losing good people sucks but it tends to lead to good info later on.

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

idk, it just guarantees one person dying without even doing anything in the game.

Well, there wouldn't be any deaths. The reason I hesitate is because that would be crippling to the mafia, to allow all of the town roles to be used but not the mafia kill. I haven't figured out a good way around that yet.

Also, the reason I do an RR for everyone (or something similar) to break stalemates is because it's in the mafias best interest to drag it out then. That way, they don't have to risk outing themselves by jumping onto the lynch train of a townie as that could come back to bite them later. So they hang back, hoping it goes to an RR where they stand less chance of being harmed.

Day one is just always going to take a long time.

[vidae]

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. There will never be a perfect town game, ever. Most people don't get it though.

[Bulldogs]

Day One can still be really useful. An example of this would be BeerBaron's latest mini Western style game. Lots of useful early banter that helped to identify Vidae as bad. This doesn't happen in bigger games though because nobody wants to stick their neck out there, if you speak too much, too soon, you're dead and have to wait a week for the next game.

[Cigaro]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

also i really dislike RR. just make it that the person with the most vote dies id say.

and people will vote, i did use something similar before

I don't particularly like RR, but I also believe the town has no excuse to not have come to a decision within 24 hours. If a town is that inept/indecisive in its decision making, it should pay the consequences(which is why I make EVERY player eligible).

[OSUGiants17]

I'd love to be in and I promise to be active.

[Gay Ork Wang]

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

Well, there wouldn't be any deaths. The reason I hesitate is because that would be crippling to the mafia, to allow all of the town roles to be used but not the mafia kill. I haven't figured out a good way around that yet.

Also, the reason I do an RR for everyone (or something similar) to break stalemates is because it's in the mafias best interest to drag it out then. That way, they don't have to risk outing themselves by jumping onto the lynch train of a townie as that could come back to bite them later. So they hang back, hoping it goes to an RR where they stand less chance of being harmed.

Day one is just always going to take a long time.

why wouldnt you just go for the person with the most votes?

also i agree with cig. certain roles just need suspicions. i mean i wasnt really suspicious of jrd in the friends game, i targeted anyway cause i figured, there is most likely an investigator or a framer hitting him.

Its not like that that information night 0 is gonna yield a lot. At worst the investigator has 1 good person and the tracker and watcher got nothing

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by Bulldogs

Day One can still be really useful. An example of this would be BeerBaron's latest mini Western style game. Lots of useful early banter that helped to identify Vidae as bad.

Yeah, but that game was much smaller and I think most people realize that they don't have as many power roles. So, they play a little ballsier. If they get lynched early, so what? The game will be over in another 2-3 days tops.

In a big game though, if you speak out early and get lynched/night 1 killed for it, you have to wait a week for the next one without having ever gotten into the game really.

I think people who are townies need to really lead the charges. Little is lost with your death power-wise, but it seems there is a malaise in people who get that role, making them even less active.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Bulldogs

Day One can still be really useful. An example of this would be BeerBaron's latest mini Western style game. Lots of useful early banter that helped to identify Vidae as bad. This doesn't happen in bigger games though because nobody wants to stick their neck out there, if you speak too much, too soon, you're dead and have to wait a week for the next game.

Classic evil Vidae.

[SuperPacker]

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

Yeah, but that game was much smaller and I think most people realize that they don't have as many power roles. So, they play a little ballsier. If they get lynched early, so what? The game will be over in another 2-3 days tops.

In a big game though, if you speak out early and get lynched/night 1 killed for it, you have to wait a week for the next one without having ever gotten into the game really.

I think people who are townies need to really lead the charges. Little is lost with your death power-wise, but it seems there is a malaise in people who get that role, making them even less active.

This was definitely the case in that game.

[Bulldogs]

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

Yeah, but that game was much smaller and I think most people realize that they don't have as many power roles. So, they play a little ballsier. If they get lynched early, so what? The game will be over in another 2-3 days tops.

In a big game though, if you speak out early and get lynched/night 1 killed for it, you have to wait a week for the next one without having ever gotten into the game really.

I think people who are townies need to really lead the charges. Little is lost with your death power-wise, but it seems there is a malaise in people who get that role, making them even less active.

Yeah, I kinda addressed that with my edit. The only issue seems to be when a player talks more, all of a sudden it's turned on then, and then so and so must be evil because his activity level is higher than usual. I agree though, townies are extremely valuable, even if people want to act like they aren't.

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by Bulldogs

Day One can still be really useful. An example of this would be BeerBaron's latest mini Western style game. Lots of useful early banter that helped to identify Vidae as bad. This doesn't happen in bigger games though because nobody wants to stick their neck out there, if you speak too much, too soon, you're dead and have to wait a week for the next game.

That has to be like the largest ninja edit ever. I said basically all that a few posts down when I quoted just the original part.

[Gay Ork Wang]

yea but losing townies doesnt really hurt

[RufusMcDaniel]

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

In a big game though, if you speak out early and get lynched/night 1 killed for it, you have to wait a week for the next one without having ever gotten into the game really.

Or have someone make you an easy target by going after you day 1.

[Bulldogs]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

yea but losing townies doesnt really hurt

It doesn't hurt as much as losing a power role, but it does take a tiny piece out of the town. This doesn't mean we should be afraid to lynch though, follow the patterns and the bandwagon jumpers and you'll find out who's evil 90% of the time. Townies need to be the most active and use the info on the table the best they can, they should be putting the pieces together and taking attention off the power roles.

[Forenci]

You can count me in. I finished up my one grad school class so I should have much more time.

[Cigaro]

Originally Posted by Bulldogs

Yeah, I kinda addressed that with my edit. The only issue seems to be when a player talks more, all of a sudden it's turned on then, and then so and so must be evil because his activity level is higher than usual. I agree though, townies are extremely valuable, even if people want to act like they aren't.

I don't understand the oft used 'logic' that if someone was replaced, they must have a power role. Perhaps that was/is mod practice, and if so, that's dumb. Any player with any role has the potential to benefit whichever side it is on. I replaced a miller. Replacements should be sought for all roles if that player is inactive, not just the power ones.

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

yea but losing townies doesnt really hurt

Right, that's why they should be playing balls to the wall and be the most outspoken. But being a townie seems to have the opposite effect for most people. They hang back and generally give fewer ***** because I think they feel more useless.

You can absolutely still be useful even without a night action. Do things like:

- Post and analyze voting patterns
- Keep tabs on role reveals/hints
- Keep tabs on past investigation results that players with a power role posted
- Keep an eye out for suspicious posts
- Keep an eye out for quiet suspicions

The quiet suspicions one is huge. Grizz has even admitted that as SK, he tries to kill anyone suspicious of him but who didn't vote for him. 90% of the players forget about the quiet suspicions a day later, but they'll notice if someone who voted for you is dead.

[jrdrylie]

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

Right, that's why they should be playing balls to the wall and be the most outspoken. But being a townie seems to have the opposite effect for most people. They hang back and generally give fewer ***** because I think they feel more useless.

That's exactly what I did during this game.

[Cigaro]

As for the 'you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs' argument, it is overall valid. That being said, it doesn't mean you purposely or recklessly break eggs. In my opinion, the best course of action is to get a decent bit of discussion going on day one to get some miniscule idea of how to proceed, perhaps go after any inactives or people who happen to slip up, but otherwise then go for a no-lynch.

Like I said, the omelet argument is valid, so you can't just indefinitely no-lynch until certainty of someone arises. But delaying for one day to see if something can be learned overnight to piece information together is the best option IMO. A lot of the time, the delay isn't going to bring about lots of information, but it does bring about something, and at worst the town is the same place it started, but without having lynched one of their own in the process.

[SuperMcGee]

Originally Posted by jrdrylie

That's exactly what I did during this game.

They should have listened to us! Townies rule these games.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Originally Posted by jrdrylie

That's exactly what I did during this game.

I was actually about to post this. You did a good job accusing people, being active, and breaking **** down. I tried to do the same as miller after being quiet day 1. I think people without night actions can actually be more valuable to the town than power roles because ideally they can throw caution to the wind and no give a **** about accusing someone who is evil, not getting them lynched, and then dying at night. Yes it sucks dying early but it sucks a lot more dying while good without having helped the town at all.

[BeerBaron]

Well this turned into a pretty good mafia philosophy debate. Unfortunately, unless I have an amazing brainstorm, this is going to be a standard day 1 upcoming with a cap and the threat of RR...I expect a no lynch...I just wish people would decide that more quickly if that is what they're going to do.

[Bulldogs]

I enjoyed the discussion.

[Brothgar]

Its difficult to go balls to the wall without going "full gonzo". That is why I keep reading until I have something important to say.