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Old 04-15-2007, 11:58 AM    (permalink
Ewing
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Are you joking? How can one be defined as one of the greatest, when they havent even beaten the greatest of that year, let alone of all time? They need a ring in my mind to be consdiered as one of the best no doubt. Having the ring proves that not only were they awesome at their position, they beat the best team in the league to win the championship.
So in your opinion Dan Marino isn't one of the greatest quarterbacks of all-time?
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Old 04-15-2007, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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It's because the QB is the main event. He's the guy who controls the entire game. Many times, the success of a team rides on the success of their QB. You mentioned that only a few greats have not won a championship, that's usually because if a QB is that good, he'll find a way to win it. WRs and RBs, howver, don't have the same control over the game that QBs have.
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Old 04-15-2007, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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It's because the QB is the main event. He's the guy who controls the entire game. Many times, the success of a team rides on the success of their QB. You mentioned that only a few greats have not won a championship, that's usually because if a QB is that good, he'll find a way to win it. WRs and RBs, howver, don't have the same control over the game that QBs have.
No, no, no. I'm sorry but, teams... teams win championships. Marino is better than Aikman in every aspect but, Aikman won three rings... that doesnt make Aikman better, he was on a extemely stacked team with an owner that would spend insane amounts of money to win. When it comes to comparing players... QBs especially, rings are grossly overrated.
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Old 04-15-2007, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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It is a team game, this is a great post because it is always forgotten. The key is how a team preforms and what teams have around players.


The best player on the 49ers teams in the 80s wasnt the QB it was Jerry Rice. He made Steve Young great as well.

Jim Brown is the greatest running back of all time, and best football player of all time but he doesnt have a ring.

Barry Sanders is the second best running back of all time and he doesnt because he had nothing with him to work with pretty much.


Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus are two of the greatest ever but dont have rings.

Yet system QBs like Aikman, Brady and Bradshaw have 3-4.

People forget that it is players around the QB that often make the team.

Aikman = Irvin
Bradshaw = Swan, Harris, and a great defense
Brady = A great defense (had 1 TD in the whole playoffs the first year and multiple INTs, and has ended 2 years in a row for the pats now with INTs)

My point is that QBs are indeed over placed with the blame or considered emphasis.

Heck would Elway not be a good QB if he never had Terrell Davis?

Thats pretty tough to say. Did you ever think that maybe if Jerry Rice went somewhere else, with his slow 40 speed, he would've been what he was? How about the fact that Elway's passing opened up the doors for Terrel Davis to run the ball successfully? Or Tom Brady who when he lead the winning drive against the Rams had the likes of JR Redmond, Anotoine Smith, David Patten and Jermaine Wiggins working with him? The QB makes others look good around him, as do the others make the QB look good.
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Old 04-15-2007, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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So in your opinion Dan Marino isn't one of the greatest quarterbacks of all-time?
Marino is one of the best of all time..but he can't be considered for THE greatest of all time. Sure his stats mean something, but thats it...just SOMETHING. You need the ring to be the best.
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Old 04-15-2007, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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Marino is one of the best of all time..but he can't be considered for THE greatest of all time. Sure his stats mean something, but thats it...just SOMETHING. You need the ring to be the best.
That would make sense if Marino played every position on the field. He had no control over what the defense did or didn't do. For my money Marino is the second best quarterback of all-time behind Johnny U who changed the position to what it is today.
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Old 04-15-2007, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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One again I'm sorry but, there is no way Unitas is the greatest ever. He may have revolutionized the position and should be rewarded for doing so but, he was no where near the talent of Marino, Montana, Elway, Manning, or Favre. There is such a bias when it comes to these older players... i dont get it. If he didnt change the position... someone else would have. He may have changed it but, he's not the best to play it.
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Old 04-15-2007, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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One again I'm sorry but, there is no way Unitas is the greatest ever. He may have revolutionized the position and should be rewarded for doing so but, he was no where near the talent of Marino, Montana, Elway, Manning, or Favre. There is such a bias when it comes to these older players... i dont get it. If he didnt change the position... someone else would have. He may have changed it but, he's not the best to play it.
He had a touchdown pass in 47 straight games. He was the first quarterback ever to throw for more than 40,000 yards despite playing in twelve and fourteen game seasons. He has the record for most Pro Bowl appearances by a quarterback with ten. Yeah, you're right he's not even close to those guys.
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Old 04-15-2007, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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He had a touchdown pass in 47 straight games. He was the first quarterback ever to throw for more than 40,000 yards despite playing in twelve and fourteen game seasons. He has the record for most Pro Bowl appearances by a quarterback with ten. Yeah, you're right he's not even close to those guys.
1. The type of game they played is not even comparable
2. TD/INT ratio was awful and had 5-6 full seasons with more ints than tds
3. 55% comp rate... nice for the time but, honestly not comparable to the that of the players playing in much, much tougher eras.
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Old 04-15-2007, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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One again I'm sorry but, there is no way Unitas is the greatest ever. He may have revolutionized the position and should be rewarded for doing so but, he was no where near the talent of Marino, Montana, Elway, Manning, or Favre. There is such a bias when it comes to these older players... i dont get it. If he didnt change the position... someone else would have. He may have changed it but, he's not the best to play it.
Johnny Unitas is the only player in NFL history (aside from Rice) worthy enough to have his number retired. He played like a QB from the 80's when he was in the 50s/60s. He opened doors for the quarterbacks you see today, and he put up your precious stats when the game was based around the run.
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Old 04-15-2007, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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1. The type of game they played is not even comparable
2. TD/INT ratio was awful and had 5-6 full seasons with more ints than tds
3. 55% comp rate... nice for the time but, honestly not comparable to the that of the players playing in much, much tougher eras.
So you're saying it was easier back then so players like Unitas and Brown shouldn't be considered as the greatest of all-time? Have fun telling people who actually know football pre-ESPN that.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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Johnny Unitas is the only player in NFL history (aside from Rice) worthy enough to have his number retired. He played like a QB from the 80's when he was in the 50s/60s. He opened doors for the quarterbacks you see today, and he put up your precious stats when the game was based around the run.
Hey... I agree he deserved to be rewarded for "opening the door." I just cant label him as the best ever. I have unlimited amounts of respect for the man but, after seeing the likes of Marino, Favre, Montana, Manning, and Elway i cannot say he is better than any of these guys.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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And the coaches and players philosophy was alot different back then, it was common for qb's to throw a lot of picks because they took chances rather than sacks.

And let us not forget about the toughness factor.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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So you're saying it was easier back then so players like Unitas and Brown shouldn't be considered as the greatest of all-time? Have fun telling people who actually know football pre-ESPN that.
The game is not comparable... you have to take in account the advancements in scouting, the combine, and just overall ability. The players as a whole of the 50's, 60's and 70's (when Unitas played) just do not measure up to those that are playing today. He was great, I'm not going to lie to you but, I cannot, cannot say he's the greatest.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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The game is not comparable... you have to take in account the advancements in scouting, the combine, and just overall ability. The players as a whole of the 50's, 60's and 70's (when Unitas played) just do not measure up to those that are playing today. He was great, I'm not going to lie to you but, I cannot, cannot say he's the greatest.
Cy Young is not the best pitcher of all time either because he played in the early 1900's then, right?
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Cy Young is not the best pitcher of all time either because he played in the early 1900's then, right?
What? Those are two different sports and situations completely.

Just for the record... CY young started, what? 40 times a year and had an era under 3.00. Statistically speaking the greatest... yes but, most would say Walter Johnson or Christy Mathewson would probably be the best.

Anyway, that is totally irrelevant... baseball and football are completely different.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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What? Those are two different sports and situations completely.

Just for the record... CY young started, what? 40 times a year and had an era under 3.00. Statistically speaking the greatest... yes but, most would say Walter Johnson or Christy Mathewson would probably be the best.

Anyway, that is totally irrelevant... baseball and football are completely different.
And..... you just contradicted yourself.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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And..... you just contradicted yourself.
Wow. We were talking about the sport of football. I honestly cannot believe a person could be so illogical... I'm not trying to be mean but, bringing up an entirely different sport and an irrelevant topic in Cy Young when we're talking about football doesnt make any damn sense to me.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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The game is not comparable... you have to take in account the advancements in scouting, the combine, and just overall ability. The players as a whole of the 50's, 60's and 70's (when Unitas played) just do not measure up to those that are playing today. He was great, I'm not going to lie to you but, I cannot, cannot say he's the greatest.
Thats right, theres nothing to compare to Peyton Manning playing the likes of Houton twice a year, playing Jacksonville twice a year when they were ****, smae with the Titans for the past few years. how about when they were in the AFC East? They had the lowly Bills for all those years twice a year, same with the Jets. Yet Manning put up these great numbers against much weaker competition. Its the same idea. Sure Manning is geat for all he has done, but you can't talk about playing weaker competition than Unitas did. Also not to menton how he did everything in 12 and 14 game seasons.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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No, no, no. I'm sorry but, teams... teams win championships. Marino is better than Aikman in every aspect but, Aikman won three rings... that doesnt make Aikman better, he was on a extemely stacked team with an owner that would spend insane amounts of money to win. When it comes to comparing players... QBs especially, rings are grossly overrated.
I didn't say that good QBs audomatically win championships. I said that they usually do. I'm no idiot, I'm just saying QB is a very large piece of the puzzle, and when teams have that down, a lot of the time, they can win much easier.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Of course the older people aren't more physically gifted than their modern day counterparts, however, the question is never the most TALENTED QB, it is the best. So you have to compare how the players performed compared to their contempories. Unitas vastly outperformed his contempories and dominated the era. THAT is why he can be considered the GOAT. He was 5'9" of course he isn't the same athlete that John Elway was. Or even Brett Favre.

It is the same with Jim Brown, his measurables would be only slightly above average in the NFL today. If you want to go based on talent alone, Bo Jackson is the best running back of all time, and Mike Vick is the best QB. But you have to look at what they did in the era they did it. That is a big reason why I like to split the QBs up into 2 eras, with 1978 being the breaking point. That is the year that the rules were changed to open the passing game, and about when the WCO began to take hold, giving the QBs much higher completion percentages and the like.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Billingsley26 View Post
Thats right, theres nothing to compare to Peyton Manning playing the likes of Houton twice a year, playing Jacksonville twice a year when they were ****, smae with the Titans for the past few years. how about when they were in the AFC East? They had the lowly Bills for all those years twice a year, same with the Jets. Yet Manning put up these great numbers against much weaker competition. Its the same idea. Sure Manning is geat for all he has done, but you can't talk about playing weaker competition than Unitas did. Also not to menton how he did everything in 12 and 14 game seasons.
The Texans of today are a bad team big deal... the athletes on their team are much better than those Unitas went up against. Like I said the advancement of the game has to be taken into consideration. Do you realize how much scouting has progressed over the years? Scouts didnt even have tape to look at... they were drafting players pretty much blindly back in the day. Peyton plays against the greatest players/athletes in the world... The NFL's growth has been tremendous... the game is no where near comparable.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:43 PM    (permalink
M.O.T.H.
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Of course the older people aren't more physically gifted than their modern day counterparts, however, the question is never the most TALENTED QB, it is the best. So you have to compare how the players performed compared to their contempories. Unitas vastly outperformed his contempories and dominated the era. THAT is why he can be considered the GOAT. He was 5'9" of course he isn't the same athlete that John Elway was. Or even Brett Favre.

It is the same with Jim Brown, his measurables would be only slightly above average in the NFL today. If you want to go based on talent alone, Bo Jackson is the best running back of all time, and Mike Vick is the best QB. But you have to look at what they did in the era they did it. That is a big reason why I like to split the QBs up into 2 eras, with 1978 being the breaking point. That is the year that the rules were changed to open the passing game, and about when the WCO began to take hold, giving the QBs much higher completion percentages and the like.
I disagree... I just see it as a bias. Take Mike Singeltary... he has that "legendary" status. You compare him to the likes of say Junior Seau (#1 tackler in NFL history) or Zach Thomas (#2 tackler in NFL history). The majority will go with Singeltary. People tend to go with the older era player that has amassed a, once again "legendary" status. I'm getting tired of the topic so, I'm pretty much done. I respect all of your views and you know how i feel.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:50 PM    (permalink
Dam8610
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I disagree... I just see it as a bias. Take Mike Singeltary... he has that "legendary" status. You compare him to the likes of say Junior Seau (#1 tackler in NFL history) or Zach Thomas (#2 tackler in NFL history). The majority will go with Singeltary. People tend to go with the older era player that has amassed a, once again "legendary" status. I'm getting tired of the topic so, I'm pretty much done. I respect all of your views and you know how i feel.
If you're going to take away from the old era players for the fact that the quality of athletes wasn't the same, don't you also have to take away from the current era players for free agency and expansion watering down the talent pool in the league today?
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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What about when people compared Brady to Manning last year? "Who would you rather have?" Most would respond, "Brady, he has the rings." I think this viewpoint is absurd. This is like saying Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Marino.
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