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Old 06-16-2012, 10:41 PM    (permalink
WCH
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Anybody who has ever trained can tell you that you add 3-6 inches with a two-step VJ vs. a standing VJ. When you look at the NBA combine numbers and factor in the two-step VJ, the math adds up. If we figure that Kevin Durant is 6'9" with shoes then that puts him at 81 inches tall. He measured a 33.5" standing VJ, so lets round up to 34" to make the math easy. That means that from a standing a position, his head reaches 115 inches (81+34=115), which is only 5 inches away from the rim. If you give him a multi-step start (momentum, and whatnot) and make the mathematical adjustments, then that puts his head at rim-level -- which is pretty much what we see during games.

The NBA combine numbers are fine (at least when it comes to the VJ). The 45" VJ is a myth.

Put another way: if Michael Jordan really had the 48" VJ that some people like to claim, then his head would be a full half-foot above the rim on a simple VJ. Does that make even the slightest bit of sense?

Last edited by WCH : 06-16-2012 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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To clear up the issue. I'm a graduate student who has done tons of research on the topic of athleticism and power.

NBA athletes don't jump well in the vertical. What makes an NBA player jump well is the running start. A gifted NBA athlete is one with long tendons in their lower leg that store and release kinetic energy efficiently. They run and jump well because their bodies are very good at reacting like a spring. So they take two steps and then jump from (observe the difference between a guy that jumps with two feet vs one foot) one foot and reach high heights.

NFL athletes are (mostly) explosive athletes. They generate significantly more power from a stop and convert no movement to high velocity quickly. An NFL player's vertical is much higher due their ability to generate force and power. The explosive muscle that you build while doing cleans correlates very highly with the vertical jump skill set.

Guys like Manny Lawson jumping 45 inches while Derrick Rose jumps 27 is not a myth. They are just built differently and excel at different things. Lawson generates power like a canon and Rose stores and releases energy like a rubber band.

MOST NBA players would be rather pitiful at football due to these reasons. Aside from CB, WR, safety and maybe scat backs. There are no DEs/TEs in the NBA. They would have to train for over a year to put develop the power. Jimmy Graham and Antonio Gates didn't decide to switch and ended up being good. They both were pretty terrible for a few years as they re-engineered their muscle to meat the demands of football.

In fact, Deion Sanders is built more like a basketball player then a football player. A good indicator is calf height. If you look at Deions calves, they look like a female childs. This means that the tendon is LONG and extremely efficient. Look at somebody like Trent Richardson's. Pure power athlete. His calf is half way down his leg. Kind of like a hammer. Grip it halfway and it's easy as hell to manipulate it. Grip it at the bottom of the handle and all you can do is redirect it's momentum. Jump->step = redirecting momentum. Plant->turn around = start stop manipulation.

Long post, but I could talk about this all day. Love this topic.
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Old 06-17-2012, 12:34 AM    (permalink
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Great athletes choose a sport based on skillset and preference, not particularly bodytype.

If Allen Iverson had been 185# in HS instead of 150#, he might have stuck with football.

As someone else stated, the NBA doesn't place near the amount of significance on their combine as the NFL does. Derrick Rose may have jumped an 'official' 27 inches, but I question whether or not that was his maximum effort. You can't play above the rim like he does in the paint without serious hops.

The real difference IMO is that college b-ball players don't spend nearly the amount of time or effort weight training that the average NCAA football player does.

BTW, if you google 'Derrick Rose' and 'vertical', you find endless hits that claim he has a 40 inch vert. A 27 inch vert doesn't translate to his actual game at all.
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:16 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Great athletes choose a sport based on skillset and preference, not particularly bodytype.

If Allen Iverson had been 185# in HS instead of 150#, he might have stuck with football.

As someone else stated, the NBA doesn't place near the amount of significance on their combine as the NFL does. Derrick Rose may have jumped an 'official' 27 inches, but I question whether or not that was his maximum effort. You can't play above the rim like he does in the paint without serious hops.

The real difference IMO is that college b-ball players don't spend nearly the amount of time or effort weight training that the average NCAA football player does.

BTW, if you google 'Derrick Rose' and 'vertical', you find endless hits that claim he has a 40 inch vert. A 27 inch vert doesn't translate to his actual game at all.
What kind of pro athlete would jump 13" under his "real" vertical at a nationally-covered event? And yes, the internet is full of claims.
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:04 AM    (permalink
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Just from watching his game, if I ask myself is Derrick Rose closer to a 30 inch vert instead of 40 inches, I'd say he was the latter.

If I'm an NBA scout and I was scouting Derrick Rose in his one season at Memphis, the eyeball test tells me the PG who's blowing past his own players on fastbreaks and dunking over guys a half foot taller than he is at will is more important than what Rose jumped at the NBA combine.
THe NBA isn't totally metric centered like the NFL is.

I haven't researched it, but I doubt the NBA combine is the only time Rose has had his vertical officially measured.

Anyway, back to the OP. I still think there was a HS football coach somewhere in Chicago who was begging a teenage Derrick Rose to come out for the football team and score TDs. Bet the same thing happened to Dwayne Wade too.
Hell I used to have a HS football coach who'd watch the soccer team practice and promise dudes they could lock up full rides in the ACC playing cornerback if they'd only switch sports.
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Great athletes choose a sport based on skillset and preference, not particularly bodytype.

If Allen Iverson had been 185# in HS instead of 150#, he might have stuck with football.

As someone else stated, the NBA doesn't place near the amount of significance on their combine as the NFL does. Derrick Rose may have jumped an 'official' 27 inches, but I question whether or not that was his maximum effort. You can't play above the rim like he does in the paint without serious hops.

The real difference IMO is that college b-ball players don't spend nearly the amount of time or effort weight training that the average NCAA football player does.

BTW, if you google 'Derrick Rose' and 'vertical', you find endless hits that claim he has a 40 inch vert. A 27 inch vert doesn't translate to his actual game at all.
Even had Iverson been 185lbs he still would have been a weakarmed vastly undersized QB. Also, by your arguement he chose BBall based on his body type.

If college ball players aren't working out as hard as football players (which I think is highly possible) there is a major problem. Someone should be holding these kids accountable. Guys coming into the NBA unable to bench a measly 185lbs is pathetic, and makes me doubt these guys know what the inside of a weightroom looks like.


On a side note, I'd like to see a NBA version of the wonderlic. There would be a lot of bad scores coming out of that.
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:33 AM    (permalink
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I'd argue that AI was a better defensive back than quarterback. I meant he would have been a corner/safety in college and possibly the pros, not a QB.

About the BP, it's an interesting metric but it doesn't have many direct sports applications, other than to give you a rough idea about a player's overall core upper body strength. It's a decent measure for lineman, but for all football players how strong and explosive they are from the waist down is more important than how powerful they are from the waist up.

B-ball places more emphasis on functional strength than raw weight room power numbers.
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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I'd argue that AI was a better defensive back than quarterback. I meant he would have been a corner/safety in college and possibly the pros, not a QB.

About the BP, it's an interesting metric but it doesn't have many direct sports applications, other than to give you a rough idea about a player's overall core upper body strength. It's a decent measure for lineman, but for all football players how strong and explosive they are from the wast down is more important than how powerful they are from the waist up.

B-ball places more emphasis on functional strength than raw weight room power numbers.
Agree that the bench doesn't relate much to functional strength, but for a 200lb man to not at least be able to throw up their own body wieght at least once is pretty sad. If you can't bench your body wieght, can you even do a push up? Also your surely not going to be able to have much effect on moving an opponent.
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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None that are anything over 220...lol. Now you see how different the two sports...lol
Dwyane Wade.

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Also remember that most height you see listed in the NBA are exaggerated by an inch or two.
Yeah, they measure with shoes on.
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Old 07-05-2012, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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All those undersized, stocky PF's would make great TE's or DE's. Guys like Kenneth Faried, Paul Milslap, DeJuan Blair, Quincy Acy and the like and the hyper athletic PG's like Rose, Westbrook, Ellis would beast at WR or FS.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:11 AM    (permalink
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Terrence Williams as a FS. He has ball-hawking abilities and is very physical in basketball. He has a good body. I would really like to see him in the NFL.
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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in his prime, dwyane wade as a receiver/returner..
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:21 PM    (permalink
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Ron Artest, Ben Wallace and Serge Ibaka plus 20 pounds of muscle as DE's, also the Graham brothers and Griffin twins as TE's
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:28 PM    (permalink
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Zaza Pachulia as the Falcons returner. That would be off the chain.
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