Week 3 Discussion Thread

[K Train]

Originally Posted by VAfy-ya

Yeah, he was never a big pass-rusher as a end. He was always more stout versus the run. What's crazy is I remember reading a article that LeBeau loved Cowboy coming out of college and wanted to bulk him up and turn him into a 5-Tech. That's why we put the full court press on him when he became a free agent. Nolan heard LeBeau and the Steelers might have interest in him too. So he was the first person we called at midnight once free agency began that year and flew him in that same morning and didn't let him leave without a contract done.

oh i remember this....he would have been an incredible replacement for aaron smith.

no worries tho, we have evander ******* hood

[Ness]

Originally Posted by themaninblack

JSmith was good here he just kinda put his foot in his mouth after he got drafted by saying he would have 18 sacks his rookie year. He was a stud against the run and did get some solid pressure but it didn't result in high sack totals. Most Bengals fans disliked him though because sacks=winzzzzz apparently.

78 is right though he would have been better utilized nowadays in Zim's defense, but I do wish we would've held onto him. Glad to see him and another hated Bengal in Ahmad Brooks are dominating out there though. We were too stupid to just let Brooksy go play and rush the QB instead of trying to force him to learn a whole new position on the fly. Another guy that didn't really "fit" into our defense supposedly.

Clements has been the only CB on this team aside from Leon that's worth a damn this season. I really don't like Lawson all that much but since Howard went down he's easily our best LBer at the moment. Wish they would blitz him more as we're getting max protected/quick tossed on nearly every passing play. He's very effective getting after the QB from deep.

In better news it looks like we're gonna get one of our best defensive players back in Carlos Dunlap this week. He's the only guy that will be able to keep RGIII from running all over us so I hope it really happens.

Don't be surprised if Lawson does nothing when rushing the passer. At least here he was terrible. But fans in San Francisco, some anyways, were quick to try and say he was better than reality suggested and brought up how many times he "hurried" the passer and how well he was in coverage. Still hard to believe some folks were cool with the fact that we drafted a coverage outside linebacker that couldn't rush the passer with the 22nd overall selection

He could do everything but sack the quarterback, which he was drafted to do. I still remember Manny Lawson wanting a fat new contract from the 49ers when he hadn't done anything significant.

[abaddon41_80]

Alex Smith will be fined $15,000 if he keeps wearing San Francisco Giants hats during interviews,

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...orting-giants/

The league considers non-NFL items non-sponsored gear, and players can’t appear wearing it 90 minutes before or after games.

So either NFL gear or naked

[Ness]

I heard Alex on an interview today. Said he'll think about getting a New Era cap and see if it's alright.

By the way thanks a lot Merton Hanks. Come on man.

[themaninblack]

Originally Posted by Ness

Don't be surprised if Lawson does nothing when rushing the passer. At least here he was terrible. But fans in San Francisco, some anyways, were quick to try and say he was better than reality suggested and brought up how many times he "hurried" the passer and how well he was in coverage. Still hard to believe some folks were cool with the fact that we drafted a coverage outside linebacker that couldn't rush the passer with the 22nd overall selection

He could do everything but sack the quarterback, which he was drafted to do. I still remember Manny Lawson wanting a fat new contract from the 49ers when he hadn't done anything significant.

Oh IDK how he would do as a down player but he's a pretty effective blitzer. Wouldn't mind seeing them put as him a down end on some plays just as a sort of wildcard though as it could be a great way to disguise some zone blitz packages. Hurries are not completely irrelevant btw, sometimes they can be just as valuable (if not more) as a sack in that it can force a QB to make an ill-advised throw or give another player a sack. That's pretty much all you need to do to a guy like Palmer. Not defending the guy though, just speaking in generalities.

[abaddon41_80]

Originally Posted by Ness

Don't be surprised if Lawson does nothing when rushing the passer. At least here he was terrible. But fans in San Francisco, some anyways, were quick to try and say he was better than reality suggested and brought up how many times he "hurried" the passer and how well he was in coverage. Still hard to believe some folks were cool with the fact that we drafted a coverage outside linebacker that couldn't rush the passer with the 22nd overall selection

He could do everything but sack the quarterback, which he was drafted to do. I still remember Manny Lawson wanting a fat new contract from the 49ers when he hadn't done anything significant.

Lawson was not a terrible pass rusher, he just wasn't a good one. He did have a lot of hurries when he actually did rush the QB. He was usually back in coverage, though, which is where he excelled anyway. I wasn't entirely happy with what he turned into given where we drafted him and what he was supposed to be but he definitely did not suck for us. He was a poor-man's Julian Peterson

[Jvig43]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

nicks now out against carolina. **** **** **** ****

**** **** ****

[Ness]

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Lawson was not a terrible pass rusher, he just wasn't a good one. He did have a lot of hurries when he actually did rush the QB. He was usually back in coverage, though, which is where he excelled anyway. I wasn't entirely happy with what he turned into given where we drafted him and what he was supposed to be but he definitely did not suck for us. He was a poor-man's Julian Peterson

Manny Lawson was awful here at rushing the passer. He wasn't even average. His best season in San Francisco he had 6.5 sacks...which is still his career high. Below that it's 3. Doesn't matter how many "hurries" he had or how good he was in coverage (which is a terrible excuse for his terrible pass rushing ability). He was brought in here to get sacks and he just never lived up to the billing, just like he isn't in Cincinnati as well as a pass rusher. Maybe he's just being regulated to coverage there too who knows. Having Aldon Smith now is like night and day. Smith is the guy Lawson was supposed to be. A disruptive force that could get after the passer and actually finish.

[themaninblack]

Using sacks as a metric for how good a pass rusher is is akin to using RBI's or BA for determining how good a hitter one is in baseball. Aldon Smith is obviously a much better player than Lawson, no question about that, but he is also on one of the more dominant defenses in recent memory, that is loaded with incredible players all over the front 7.

God damnit I swear I'm not defending Lawson.

[abaddon41_80]

Originally Posted by Ness

Manny Lawson was awful here at rushing the passer. He wasn't even average. His best season in San Francisco he had 6.5 sacks...which is still his career high. Below that it's 3. Doesn't matter how many "hurries" he had or how good he was in coverage (which is a terrible excuse for his terrible pass rushing ability). He was brought in here to get sacks and he just never lived up to the billing, just like he isn't in Cincinnati as well as a pass rusher. Maybe he's just being regulated to coverage there too who knows. Having Aldon Smith now is like night and day. Smith is the guy Lawson was supposed to be. A disruptive force that could get after the passer and actually finish.

You aren't comparing apples to apples. We may have hoped that Lawson would be a dominant pass rusher but it quickly became clear that his two moves, try to run around the blocker or try to run through him, weren't going to make him one in the NFL. With proper coaching he may have been that player, he definitely had the ability. We will never know.

That doesn't take away from what he was, though, and that was a solid pass rusher who was great in coverage and was great against the run. To say his low sack total automatically means he was a terrible pass rusher is stupid. For one, he was rarely actually used as a pass rusher with us. When he was asked to blitz he did provide quite a few pressures.

So, yes, Aldon is obviously a much better pass rusher than Lawson, who was merely average at getting pressure. But Lawson was significantly better against the run and in coverage than Aldon is right now.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by themaninblack

Using sacks as a metric for how good a pass rusher is is akin to using RBI's or BA for determining how good a hitter one is in baseball. Aldon Smith is obviously a much better player than Lawson, no question about that, but he is also on one of the more dominant defenses in recent memory, that is loaded with incredible players all over the front 7.

God damnit I swear I'm not defending Lawson.

Sorry I don't watch baseball so I don't know what you're talking about.

I'm just saying Lawson was brought in here, drafted high, to get sacks and he failed at that. Is he a decent tackler? Sure. Is he good in coverage? Maybe. But is he an impact player that changes the course of a game like the 49ers thought he would be? No.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

You aren't comparing apples to apples. We may have hoped that Lawson would be a dominant pass rusher but it quickly became clear that his two moves, try to run around the blocker or try to run through him, weren't going to make him one in the NFL. With proper coaching he may have been that player, he definitely had the ability. We will never know.

Or he was just never good regardless like countless other players in the NFL.

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

That doesn't take away from what he was, though, and that was a solid pass rusher who was great in coverage and was great against the run. To say his low sack total automatically means he was a terrible pass rusher is stupid. For one, he was rarely actually used as a pass rusher with us. When he was asked to blitz he did provide quite a few pressures.

Lawson was not a solid pass rusher and probably never will be. Maybe your definition of the word "solid" romanticizes an average reality more so than others. Not me. He was average to just plain garbage. Aldon is a solid pass rusher. And it has nothing to do with scheme or whatever. He just has a natural ability of speed and is better at shedding blocks. And it doesn't even have to do with his lack of sack totals for Manny (which is already a knock regardless), but you said it yourself at the top. He just couldn't shed blocks or get to the quarterback. By the way who are the best pass rushing linebackers in the game that have **** sack totals?

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

So, yes, Aldon is obviously a much better pass rusher than Lawson, who was merely average at getting pressure. But Lawson was significantly better against the run and in coverage than Aldon is right now.

Meh. I don't see teams gunning for Aldon on every rushing down as if they've discovered a weakness. Aldon is average to decent against the run. It's not like it's night and day in regards to stopping the run ability compared to Lawson like it is getting sacks.

[VAfy-ya]

Originally Posted by themaninblack

Using sacks as a metric for how good a pass rusher is is akin to using RBI's or BA for determining how good a hitter one is in baseball. Aldon Smith is obviously a much better player than Lawson, no question about that, but he is also on one of the more dominant defenses in recent memory, that is loaded with incredible players all over the front 7.

God damnit I swear I'm not defending Lawson.

Well to be fair, Lawson played with those same players and didn't come close to having the impact Aldon did.

But Ness is short-changing him though. He was excellent against the run. No one tried to run outside the tackles to the strong-side when Lawson was here because he was just too stout holding the edge. And he was excellent in coverage. That diving int he made in man coverage against Zac Miller when he was with the Raiders in 2010 was one of the most athletic plays I've ever seen any LB make. He just wasn't a 3-4 OLB...that's all there is to it. If he would have been in a 4-3 this whole time, no doubt he would have been a Pro Bowler by now. He has all the tools. Pass-rusher is just not one of them.

[abaddon41_80]

Originally Posted by Ness

Or he was just never good regardless like countless other players in the NFL.

Maybe. I felt like he had plenty of ability and definitely showed flashes of being the pass rusher we wanted. It just never developed

Lawson was not a solid pass rusher and probably never will be. Maybe your definition of the word "solid" romanticizes an average reality more so than others. Not me. He was average to just plain garbage. Aldon is a solid pass rusher. And it has nothing to do with scheme or whatever. He just has a natural ability of speed and is better at shedding blocks. And it doesn't even have to do with his lack of sack totals for Manny (which is already a knock regardless), but you said it yourself at the top. He just couldn't shed blocks or get to the quarterback. By the way who are the best pass rushing linebackers in the game that have **** sack totals?

Aldon is way more than a solid pass rusher, he is almost an elite one already. Lawson was an average pass rusher and nowhere near "garbage" at putting pressure on the QB. Lawson had all the natural ability that Aldon has, maybe even more. He was faster, a better athlete and probably stronger. They even had the exact same 7'2'' wingspan. Lawson just didn't have any actual technique to rush the passer, which Aldon does.

Meh. I don't see teams gunning for Aldon on every rushing down as if they've discovered a weakness. Aldon is average to decent against the run. It's not like it's night and day in regards to stopping the run ability compared to Lawson like it is getting sacks.

He isn't terrible against the run but he is merely average.

[ArkyRamsFan]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

How has brockers looked in general? I liked him coming out

Brockers has yet to play at all this year. He has an ankle injury that he sustained in the 4th pre season game.

Looks like he is still getting treatment for it so I doubt he will be a go for this Sunday.

We sure could use his size in the middle though....

[Ness]

Originally Posted by VAfy-ya

Well to be fair, Lawson played with those same players and didn't come close to having the impact Aldon did.

But Ness is short-changing him though. He was excellent against the run. No one tried to run outside the tackles to the strong-side when Lawson was here because he was just too stout holding the edge. And he was excellent in coverage. That diving int he made in man coverage against Zac Miller when he was with the Raiders in 2010 was one of the most athletic plays I've ever seen any LB make. He just wasn't a 3-4 OLB...that's all there is to it. If he would have been in a 4-3 this whole time, no doubt he would have been a Pro Bowler by now. He has all the tools. Pass-rusher is just not one of them.

Sure he was okay in run support and coverage. But in hindsight he wouldn't have been taken as high as he was in the draft because you don't draft a coverage outside linebacker in the first round. You draft someone that is going to come in here and be a storm at causing havoc to the quarterback. Lawson was never, and probably will never be this. Which is why he was expendable, didn't get his monster contract he wanted, and easily replaceable.

And you have to consider the possibility that Lawson just isn't very good in a 3-4 or 4-3. If he was in a 4-3 he'd be a Pro Bowler by now? Maybe. Let's also consider the possibility that he'd continue to be average.

[tjsunstein]

Kind of off topic but didnt want to start a new thread or anything. Does anyone know where I can find sortable stats that includes targets for WRs for this season to date? I thought NFL.com had but unless I'm missing something and I might be, its not showing up.

[fenikz]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/pl...ceivingTargets

[Docta]

Originally Posted by tjsunstein

Kind of off topic but didnt want to start a new thread or anything. Does anyone know where I can find sortable stats that includes targets for WRs for this season to date? I thought NFL.com had but unless I'm missing something and I might be, its not showing up.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/pl...ceivingTargets

EDIT: You've won this round, fenikz. *shakes fist*

[Raiderz4Life]

You win by sig default.

[hawkeye123]

How did Vontaze Burfict look, Cincy fans?

[VAfy-ya]

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

He isn't terrible against the run but he is merely average.

What are you basing this on? He played a defined role last year. He played exclusively in the nickel package. He wasn't inserted to be a run stopper. I don't recall Lawson setting the world on fire as a run defender his rookie year either. He evolved into that role. Aldon played a significant role on a team that was one of the best defenses against the run in recent history. That doesn't happen if a guy who saw significant snaps at OLB in said defense was "merely average". Teams ran at Aldon ALOT last year. He more than held his own.

As far as this year goes, he's been excellent against the run. He already has two tackles for a loss, against teams who aren't dedicated to running the ball, so opportunities against the run have been limited. Aldon's displayed the necessary tools to be a complete 3-4 OLB thus far.

[themaninblack]

Originally Posted by Ness

Sorry I don't watch baseball so I don't know what your talking about.

I meant that while its part of the puzzle it doesn't really paint the whole picture. You would obviously know much more than I would how effective a pass rusher the guy was as you got to see him with a much higher degree of regularity.

[themaninblack]

Originally Posted by VAfy-ya

Well to be fair, Lawson played with those same players and didn't come close to having the impact Aldon did.

Yes I understand that but was that front 7 as dominant as it is now with a solid secondary to go with it? I think not but then again I'm no SF fan, in fact I hate you guys for stealin mah two SBs! ;) Comparing him to Aldon Smith is flat out stupid but saying he would probably have better production is not.


Hawkeye, Burfict looked ok but he played a limited amount of snaps with Vinny Rey getting the vast majority. It was the first time he'd ever played OLB in his life IIRC so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Ill tell ya one thing though Maualuga better get his **** together or Taze could be taking over the middle sooner rather than later. Vinny Rey did a great job at OLB too.

[BuckeyeDan17]

I'm not so sure we are the team that pulls cj spiller back to earth.