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View Poll Results: Who would you build around?
Darrelle Revis 27 31.40%
Haloti Ngata 21 24.42%
Jason Pierre-Paul 11 12.79%
Patrick Willis 15 17.44%
DeMarcus Ware 5 5.81%
Clay Matthews 0 0%
Terrell Suggs 0 0%
Ndamukong Suh 4 4.65%
Mario Williams 0 0%
Other 3 3.49%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-20-2012, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
Give me Revis. I'd sleep better at night knowing that he could limit the top option of any team's passing attack.
This. It's not that he's just elite, but he literally erases other teams #1 WR's, dominant WR's also. Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, doesn't matter. He's typically closed off that option every week. JPP was a close second, but you can create scheme and find pass-rushers much easier then a CB who can completely wipe out a teams #1 target. Gives your defense so much more flexibility in what you can do, teams don't even challenge him.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
I get all the Revis love, I do, but some of the arguements of how there are more good defensive linemen than good cbs doesn't really sit with me.

If most people were honest on this board and they had to pick one offensive player to build a team around, giving age, talent etc, they would likely pick Aaron Rodgers. Now when it comes to being far and away the best at an offensive position you probably have to look at Calvin Johnson at WR. For as good as Larry Fitzgerald has been and as good as AJ Green or Julio Jones may become, Calvin Johnson is easily the best WR and most gameplanned for WR in the NFL. The gap between Johnson and Fitzgerald is wider than the gap between Rodgers and Brady or Brees. However no one is going to build their team around Calvin Johnson, they are going to build it around a QB.

For me the same applies on defense. You want someone who has to be accounted for on every single play, be it a run or pass. For as much as the NFL is now a passing league, it is still a situational league.

In my offensive gameplan, if I have to make a concerted effort to run away from Justin Smith on first down then that limits what I can do. And the defense is going to know this which makes the LBs job easier. So if my defense can win on first down 80% of the time and leave 2nd and 9+ situations then we can do so much more than the offense.

Revis isn't going to be a massive help if the offense picks up 6 ypc every time they run the ball. You can draw up exotic blitz packages all day, but if I only need one yard for the first then it isn't much good.

Likewise in the passing game, if you have to constantly keep a TE in to double JPP or slant your protections towards Haloti Ngata it frees up other defensive linemen to make a play in one on one battles which also reduces the need to bring more than 4 guys on any given play.



This really is just a pick your favourite contest, but having a stud at prety much any position on defense allows you to play the numbers game. It all depends on where you want the advantage
Bravo sir, ******* BRAVO! To me, a shutdown CB is a luxury. But its not a necessity in creating a dominant D. So if Im going to start somewhere, Im going to start with the elite of the elite in the trenches.
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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Revis or Ngata. No one else deserves consideration. I'll go with the big guy, but its close. Patrick Willis would not be my choice of ILB from the 49ers.

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Old 09-20-2012, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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Revis or Ngata. No one else deserves consideration. I'll go with the big guy, but its close. Patrick Willis would not be my choice of ILB from the 49ers.

J
I'd say the 23 year old superbowl champ who's still just learning the game despite dominating at the most important defensive position last year deserves some consideration.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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I'd say the 23 year old superbowl champ who's still just learning the game despite dominating at the most important defensive position last year deserves some consideration.
Being a Super Bowl champ has nothing at all to do with this discussion.

I could say that a 26 year old Super Bowl champ that currently leads the league in sacks deserves some consideration too. And I'm not entirely sold that defensive end is the most important defensive position.

My point is that theres a way to spin it in favor of whatever stud we'd prefer.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Bravo sir, ******* BRAVO! To me, a shutdown CB is a luxury. But its not a necessity in creating a dominant D. So if Im going to start somewhere, Im going to start with the elite of the elite in the trenches.
This. Pretty simple if you ask me.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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I'd take Pierre-Paul over Ware simply because of age. Revis is great but hardly could survive a very weak pass rush.
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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There has been some great debate in this thread. The issue people are having, or should I slight preferential differences, are both strong, sound arguments on both sides. There is no wrong answer.

A team would not be wrong to build around an impact defensive linemen like Haloti Ngata. He is a game changer. He commands extra attention. He makes a defensive line infinitely better by his shear presence alone. That's was what the Ravens were hanging their hat on when they drafted him. He was the space eater that was going to allow Ray Lewis freedom to make plays. He was going to make life easier for Terrell Suggs. He was going to impact their running game more than any single player in their front 7, even more so than -- arguably -- the greatest MLB of all-time. That is a difference maker. That is something you build around. That is something that can set the tone of your defense. It doesn't make it complete, and it doest guarantee that you will have a dominant defense... against the run or the pass, but it is a center piece and it is something that is hard to find. Ngata was my second option in this poll. The power and speed he plays with on the inside, it is unmatched. Justin Smith is also one of my favorite defensive linemen in the NFL, but youth would get my vote when it comes to this topic even though Smith, right now, might be the better player.

JJ Watt is making a strong case for himself as well. With how young he is, how strong he is against the run and his ability to not only sack / pressure the QB, but batted balls at the LOS... it is unparalleled. Factor in his age with how good he is now... after this season / post season is all said and done, Watt might be the best interior linemen in the game. He will certainly be in the discussion. He is a better player than Mario Williams and I think the Texans saw the writing on the wall in Watts rookie season. Watt makes more of an impact than Williams ever did or ever would.

Taking Darrelle Revis is an excellent choice where you can't go wrong. He's the one I picked in this poll. Revis is the best defensive player in the NFL. I think it's a given. I don't think it's debatable, and I don't think it's all that close. Not only does Revis follow around a teams #1 receiving option all day long, but he creates turnovers. He breaks up passes on third down and ends drives. He can single handedly get my offense the ball back in any given series by simply covering the best player on the field and shutting him down. That's what he does. It is mind boggling just how good he is. How technically perfect he is. How strong he is and how smart he is. The ability to anticipate routes, redirect receivers at the LOS with his jam and simply disrupt a passing pattern... it's above-and-beyond the next best CB in the game (who I believe is Joe Haden).

Teams have passing attacks that are substituted for their running game. Throwing the football is becoming more prevalent, which is old news. Teams are getting to the Super Bowl with an offense that throws the ball 35-45 times a game, ignores the running game and is supported by a weak defense... If I'm building a defense, I gotta go with the best player in the game at a crucial position that takes away a Super Bowl contenders best game plan. Revis alone can greatly alter a passing attack.

You can see the impact Revis has on a game. You can watch an offense that plays the Jets, and you can see that offense struggle to get the football to other receiving options outside the #1 guy. They very next week, that offense can look like a well oiled machine that hadn't missed beat. That #1 WR might have less than 40 yards receiving against the Jets and be a complete non-factor, but the next week? Typical production where he goes over 100 yards and a TD. Revis' impact on pass defense is astronomical. His ability to shut down a #1 and give a defensive coordinator the luxury of doing whatever he wants in the secondary... It's a no brainer for me. Best defensive player in the game who makes his defense better.

One thing I will say, I don't think you build a defense around a pass rusher (DE / OLB). I know that might go against conventional thinking, but I've seen DeMarcus Ware sit on an island for years and kick the **** out of an offensive linemen, produce 20 sack seasons yet he's hardly made a difference in Dallas. He's not going to make your front seven good against the run. He wont make your defense capable of putting consistent pressure on the QB. He wont give you a solid pass defense. He just wont impact the game the same way a stud interior defensive linemen can, or an impact cornerback or safety can. I think the world of Ware. I've thought for years now that he's been among the top three defensive players in the game. But a pass rusher will not make my defense. He can make it better, but he wont be the guy. I don't think it's something you build around. Ware is an accent piece. He can make a DE or ILB look better when he's there, but he wont turn those guys from nobody's into somebody's.

My highest rated pass rusher would be Clay Matthews, which is somewhat surprising to me that he hasn't had a single vote, or even much mention in this thread. I get the adoration for JPP (he's a great player), but I think Matthews just offers more versatility / unpredictability to your defense. Again, you factor in Matthews age and defensive player of the year standards that he's already set... the start to the season he's already had... he looks like he's primed for a career year. All the guys I would consider taking would be high motor guys with a blend of athleticism and size, but mainly technique (Revis, Ngata, Justin Smith, Watt, Matthews). Technique wins in the NFL. Athleticism wins in college, but when guys know how to bend and move their feet, it's hard to run around someone. When guys lift weights all their life and are now full grown men, it's hard to just run through them.
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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I get all the Revis love, I do, but some of the arguements of how there are more good defensive linemen than good cbs doesn't really sit with me.
Itís a valid argument though. You get one choice. You need to maximize that choice. You take the scarcer resource. The demand for pass-rushers is inelastic. You wonít get an argument from me on that. But the market is supplied with more pass-rushers and thatís a determining factor. In fact, Justin Smith was signed as a free agent. Mario Williams was allowed to walk, too. So was Julius Peppers. Jared Allen and Shaun Rogers were traded for futures. Thatís five impact pass-rushers that I can think of that have hit the open market in the past four seasons. In that same time span, what shutdown corners have hit the open market? Perhaps one? And the one that did isnít even in the same class as Revis.

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If most people were honest on this board and they had to pick one offensive player to build a team around, giving age, talent etc, they would likely pick Aaron Rodgers. Now when it comes to being far and away the best at an offensive position you probably have to look at Calvin Johnson at WR. For as good as Larry Fitzgerald has been and as good as AJ Green or Julio Jones may become, Calvin Johnson is easily the best WR and most gameplanned for WR in the NFL. The gap between Johnson and Fitzgerald is wider than the gap between Rodgers and Brady or Brees. However no one is going to build their team around Calvin Johnson, they are going to build it around a QB.
But an elite quarterback is still much rarer than a coverage-changing wide receiver. So itís the same principle. I can find dozens of receivers that can produce at a high level and dictate deep coverages. Thereís just a few quarterbacks that can do what Rodgers does though.

Itís not just about the first-tier. Itís about the depth of the second- and third-tiers, too. In both cases, quarterback and cornerback are shallower than wide receivers and defensive linemen.

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For me the same applies on defense. You want someone who has to be accounted for on every single play, be it a run or pass. For as much as the NFL is now a passing league, it is still a situational league.

In my offensive gameplan, if I have to make a concerted effort to run away from Justin Smith on first down then that limits what I can do. And the defense is going to know this which makes the LBs job easier. So if my defense can win on first down 80% of the time and leave 2nd and 9+ situations then we can do so much more than the offense.
For the most part, first down isnít just a running down though. Teams might still run the ball 55-60% of the time Ė I donít know the exact figures Ė but thereís been a significant shift in that aspect of situational football. Weíve seen teams use short spreads as suitable substitutes for running games. Quick-strike football can be an effective counter to an overwhelming front and neutralize a ferocious pass rush.

And when teams do run on first down, it isnít just a simple, straightforward lead blast into a crowded gap. First down is about expected gains. No offense is going to accept the negligible gains that come from a vanilla approach. You can run from stout defenders with success. You can even run at stout defenders with success. All of these defensive linemen arenít some kind of unblockable superheroes. Itís all about being creative and smart game-planning of protections.

Your defense is aligning in a standard 6, 2, 2, 6 front on first down, for example. I bring in a swing tackle and jumbo personnel on 1st & 10 and line up in Weak I. From the look, Justin Smith appears to be left one-on-one on the weak edge. He might get a fuillback, but the extra tackle and percentages suggest the run is going to the other side of the formation. Thatís a favorable matchup for Justin Smith, right? So itís plausible the defense could call for cheating concepts and shade second-level personnel to that side since Iím running from Smith. But, as the clock winds down, I motion the swing tackle/tight end across the formation. Now Justin Smith is facing two offensive tackles and a fullback. Now the advantage is flipped. Heís double-teamed and Iíve still got a fullback there to clean edge spillage. If I execute, thatís a positive expected gain for me on first down. And itís accomplished via running right at Smith.

Plus, the advantages donít end with a medium gain on that particular first down. If I show the same look, substituting for a swing tackle and lining up in a Weak I again, the defense is thinking twice about shading now. If the other edge is weaker, which isnít unreasonable to expect, Iíve created a numbers game in which I have the advantage. Iíve got two tackles against one defensive lineman and a linebacker. And Iíve got a fullback available for a stretch block. Thatís a matchup I expect to win.

I can attack him through other means, too. I can trap him. If heís being aggressive, I can scheme it so he takes himself out of position. And thatís ignoring the fact that I can still run from him and test the weaker points of the defense.

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Revis isn't going to be a massive help if the offense picks up 6 ypc every time they run the ball. You can draw up exotic blitz packages all day, but if I only need one yard for the first then it isn't much good.
No, heís not. But again, picking Revis doesnít mean Iím stuck with a front seven thatís been ravaged with neglect.

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Likewise in the passing game, if you have to constantly keep a TE in to double JPP or slant your protections towards Haloti Ngata it frees up other defensive linemen to make a play in one on one battles which also reduces the need to bring more than 4 guys on any given play.
A tight end doesnít have to anchor at the line to affect protections. Tight ends can deliver strong chips or punches and then release into their routes, too. It doesnít limit offenses as much as is being suggested.

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This really is just a pick your favourite contest, but having a stud at prety much any position on defense allows you to play the numbers game. It all depends on where you want the advantage
Group A: Darrelle Revis and Vince Wilfork.

Group B: Haloti Ngata and Tramon Williams.

Which grouping is better?

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I'd take Pierre-Paul over Ware simply because of age. Revis is great but hardly could survive a very weak pass rush.
I donít know where this notion is coming from. The OP doesnít state that choosing one means the other will suffer. This point keeps being brought up, but it isnít being explained. I can choose Revis and then build a stable of pass-rushers, too.

To the point though, who has been the best pass-rusher for the Jets? Calvin Pace? Heís not striking fear into me. As an offensive coordinator, Iím fine with him. But where have the Jets ranked in total defense the past three seasons? Fifth, third, and first. With serviceable two-gappers upfront and without an impact pass-rusher.

Revis makes the difference. Heís one of the greatest of all-time.
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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Damn I hate having to make points against you and I do get where you are coming from and definitely agree when he hangs them up Revis will be a candidate for GOAT at CB.

The one thing I will say in relation to your post is in regards to more teams substituting the run game with quick spread passing concepts. A lot of teams, like the Patriots, Packers and Saints etc don't have a true #1 WR. Revis not only covers the main guy but also allows coverages to dictate where the ball goes. I agree with this. However, take the Patriots as an example since the Jets play them twice a year.

The Patriots align in their standard 12 personnel with Hernandez and Gronkowski at TE with Welker and Lloyd out wide and Ridley at tail back. If Hernandez and Gronkowski line up on the line of scrimmage Revis has to choose between Lloyd and Welker. At this point the Patriots have a decision to make based on the pre snap read. The jets are likely going to try and flood the middle of the field to reduce the impact of the in line TEs and force Brady to go outside the numbers to the WR not covered by Revis. This is what the Jets want. However the Patriots can check to a run in a power formation, or motion Hernandez out wide where he can become the main option.

Now the Jets can't simply put more men in the middle of the field because there is an added threat outside in Hernandez.

This is one particular scenario against one of the better passing offenses in the league with a lot of versatility, however it is to show that no matter who you choose the offense can make an adjustment to limit their effectiveness. It is just my opinion that it is harder to do that for a stud defensive lineman over a CB, even if that CB may be the GOAT
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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I would build around J.J. Watt. He's quickly becoming one of the best defensive players in the NFL. Since coming into the league last year, he's out-performed more highly thought of players, like Haloti Ngata. I would also give consideration to Calais Campbell, but Watt wins out because he's a few years younger.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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Can I have Watt, Haloti, JPP, Clay, Berry and Revis?
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:57 AM    (permalink
OzTitan
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I'd take JPP.

But the very first thing I'd do if building a D is make sure I found a very very good DC - it seems to me player talent will get you a few big plays a game but a legitimate elite D starts with the guy creating and calling the plays. The way the NFL is going all out offensively only makes this more evident IMO, you can't expect to give up less than 20 points without perfect planning on defense anymore.
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