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Old 10-05-2012, 02:12 PM    (permalink
Complex
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A good QB would increase the performance of the rest of the offense and not rely on having elite talent around him.

If the only way you're QB is going to be decent is by giving him elite receivers and an elite offensive line, you should just move on.
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Besides Tom brady and Phillip Rivers who else has done it? Rodgers has had talent all of his career. Eli struggled when Plaxico shoot himself and I doubt he made Cruz better. The guy was balling out in the preseason might of been good his rookie season if he didn't get hurt. Peyton the guy had multiple 1st rounders around him and struggled when he lost Wayne(?) and Clark.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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Has Rodgers had talent his whole career or have we just never seen these weapons without a Favre or Rodgers (both great QBs) throwing to them? Dun dun dunnnnn.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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We saw Flynn do pretty good with them.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bantx View Post
A great qb will make the team better. See the difference when players like Cam Newton and RG3 come into the league and look at their team the year before.

Steve Smith career was revived because of Cam Newton coming in and playing great. Now don't twist my words up and say I'm calling him elite, Cam playing as well as he did made the players around him better.
Now this year RG3 is already making an impact on his team and time can only tell so I'll hold my judgement on that.
He had Jimmy Clausen throwing to him. Give Peyton Troy Williamson, Limas Sweed and Tiquan Underwood and you would think he is on the decline or needs better weapons.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Besides Tom brady and Phillip Rivers who else has done it? Rodgers has had talent all of his career. Eli struggled when Plaxico shoot himself and I doubt he made Cruz better. The guy was balling out in the preseason might of been good his rookie season if he didn't get hurt. Peyton the guy had multiple 1st rounders around him and struggled when he lost Wayne(?) and Clark.
Huh?

Eli has made the players around him better his entire career. Who has left the Giants as a skill position player and actually had a good career after they left? Not a single one of them.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Huh?

Eli has made the players around him better his entire career. Who has left the Giants as a skill position player and actually had a good career after they left? Not a single one of them.
Plax had a few triple doubles in the yard
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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Plax had a few triple doubles in the yard
Ok, I'll give you Plax.

How about Toomer? Shockey? (He sucked in NO, let's be honest about it) Steve Smith? Boss? Derrick Ward? Watch Ballard fall off the face of the planet now too.

Point is, he makes his players look better than they are. Always has.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Lol, yeah. Ballard is the prime example. Most teams 3rd TE's are better than Jake Ballard, but Manning made him a productive receiver.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Huh?

Eli has made the players around him better his entire career. Who has left the Giants as a skill position player and actually had a good career after they left? Not a single one of them.
Most of the great Giants skill position players either spent their prime in NY and were replaced by younger, cheaper prospects when they started to decline or suffered some kind of injury.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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If you give Eli solid talent at WR and guys who understand how to adjust their routes in that 'option' system, Eli will find them and get them the football.
Eli makes his WRs look like world beaters when many of them may just be slightly above average.

I still think Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz would be good on any NFL team, but I do think Eli can produce with less than pro bowl talent,(David Tyree and Steve Smith).

I just think there very few QBs who would have been productive starting for the Rams 2010-11.

A guy like Aaron Rodgers is different in that I think he has pro bowl talent at WR whom Rodgers helps to perform at a record setting level because of his elite execution,(Montana, Steve Young, Kurt Warner).

The one worry I do have about Bradford is I don't believe he's now the same QB psychologically that he was at OU.
Not saying he lacks confidence, but you sense sometimes he doesn't trust his Oline and he plays too fast because of that lack of faith.

If Steve Fisher wants to salvage Bradford and turn him into his long term starter, he absolutely needs to get him protection.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Ok, I'll give you Plax.

How about Toomer? Shockey? (He sucked in NO, let's be honest about it) Steve Smith? Boss? Derrick Ward? Watch Ballard fall off the face of the planet now too.

Point is, he makes his players look better than they are. Always has.
Let's be honest. Who of those guys were world beaters in terms of talent? I didn't think really highly of any of those players outside of Smith and Shockey. Smith got injured and Shockey was only a 600/6 type of guy in New York, that's hardly a guy I'd expect to go somewhere and start setting the league on fire.


The better question is do you think Cruz or Nicks could leave and go on to do nothing? Because those guys are actually talented. Most of those guys you named are just run of the mill guys. Toomer doesn't count because he never went anywhere.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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In all fairness Ballard never really got to fully prove himself for the Giants, he was pretty good in his only season having a full role. Injury bug got him but he had some ability, maybe he will turn out to be more than a coup against the Giants. That is a tough injury though.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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Nicks will be a stud wherever he plays but the Giants will do whatever it takes to lock him up I would imagine.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Nicks will be a stud wherever he plays but the Giants will do whatever it takes to lock him up I would imagine.
His injury history is going to cause a snag in negotiations. If things continue the way they are going, Cruz would be the guy they want to lock up. I've been talking up Cruz for years now, but for some reason he's still undervalued. He's very durable, can play inside and out, and is just as capable of a monster game as anyone in the league. But it seems like people still don't see him as a legit WR(not you, just talking in general).
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Cruz is definitely legit but I think Nicks is the guy more likely to leave for bigger money, that is why I referenced him. Everyone knows that the Giants offensive core is Eli-Nicks-Cruz, I think they are going to try and keep that group together even if it costs a ton of money. The Randle pick makes you think about it, but I'd bet now more than ever the Giants will want to keep their big three together.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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Let's be honest. Who of those guys were world beaters in terms of talent? I didn't think really highly of any of those players outside of Smith and Shockey. Smith got injured and Shockey was only a 600/6 type of guy in New York, that's hardly a guy I'd expect to go somewhere and start setting the league on fire.


The better question is do you think Cruz or Nicks could leave and go on to do nothing? Because those guys are actually talented. Most of those guys you named are just run of the mill guys. Toomer doesn't count because he never went anywhere.
I think Nicks would thrive anywhere for sure. Cruz, I think he would be very good, but our system also helps him out a lot. The slot WR in our system is set up for success as long as he understands his options.

But Cruz would be very good, not as good as he is now, but still very good. Nicks would beast it anywhere.

Look at this year though. No Nicks for half the season so far, with Hixon and Barden as his 2 and 3. And he's still doing just fine. Eli makes his players around him better.

He's not the only one. Most good quarterbacks do. When you have a qb who doesn't, then chances are he's not a good qb.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Besides Tom brady and Phillip Rivers who else has done it? Rodgers has had talent all of his career. Eli struggled when Plaxico shoot himself and I doubt he made Cruz better. The guy was balling out in the preseason might of been good his rookie season if he didn't get hurt. Peyton the guy had multiple 1st rounders around him and struggled when he lost Wayne(?) and Clark.
Yes, because that offense sure did great without Peyton. He definitely didn't make them better.

As a side note, I don't buy the "multiple 1st rounders argument" too much. Give Tarik Glenn David Carr as his QB and his career would take a gigantic nose dive thanks to how long he used to keep the ball. Give both Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne an average QB and their numbers would drop significantly. Give Edge no passing game, the D stacks the box and his numbers are nowhere close to what they've been.


Also, Brandon ******* Stokley getting over a thousand yards.

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Old 10-05-2012, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Ok, I'll give you Plax.

How about Toomer? Shockey? (He sucked in NO, let's be honest about it) Steve Smith? Boss? Derrick Ward? Watch Ballard fall off the face of the planet now too.

Point is, he makes his players look better than they are. Always has.
Yeah cause Eli is Steve Smith's doctor. If he stayed with the Giants he would of been healthy. Derrick Ward and Kevin Boss? El oh El. Where is Justin Gage, Roydell Williams and Lendale White without Vince Young?Jeremy Shockey put up similar stats with the Saints, he just more healthy with the Giants.

Amani Toomer really? he was at the end of his career and his best season was with Kerry Collins. Eli sure did make him better. Get out of here.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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yeah its definitely semantics.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Yeah cause Eli is Steve Smith's doctor. If he stayed with the Giants he would of been healthy. Derrick Ward and Kevin Boss? El oh El. Where is Justin Gage, Roydell Williams and Lendale White without Vince Young?Jeremy Shockey put up similar stats with the Saints, he just more healthy with the Giants.

Amani Toomer really? he was at the end of his career and his best season was with Kerry Collins. Eli sure did make him better. Get out of here.
Drew Brees easily makes lesser players look better than Eli does, I dunno what he's getting at here. Shockey had a bad year with the Giants, then they traded him, and he got even more injured but played about the same here as he did there. Though we all know that no player has ever had to deal with a harder offense than Eli has.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:53 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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i disagree. a good qb plays well enough to win with a good team around him (let's say marc bulger). a great qb makes the offense better (philip rivers). an elite qb can take crap to the super bowl (early tom brady). it might be semantics, but i think there have been a lot of good qbs in nfl history. i think there are very few great and elite qbs in nfl history.
Ok. I can agree with that.

So now the question is, do we consider "good" qbs good enough to win the big one?

Most if not all of the qbs who have won the SB since 2003 have been or wound up being elite quarterbacks.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:54 PM    (permalink
bearsfan_51
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Ok. I can agree with that.

So now the question is, do we consider "good" qbs good enough to win the big one?

Most if not all of the qbs who have won the SB since 2003 have been or wound up being elite quarterbacks.
Eli is not an elite quarterback.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:56 PM    (permalink
Saints-Tigers
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i disagree. a good qb plays well enough to win with a good team around him (let's say marc bulger). a great qb makes the offense better (philip rivers). an elite qb can take crap to the super bowl (early tom brady). it might be semantics, but i think there have been a lot of good qbs in nfl history. i think there are very few great and elite qbs in nfl history.
Do you really think the Patriots were crap? Do you think Tom Brady is better right now, or better early on?

Tom Brady is an odd case study to me. He's very clearly a better player now than he ever was during the superbowl seasons... substantially better even, but his results haven't been as good. Hmm...
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:57 PM    (permalink
Don Vito
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Chad Pennington was elite. So many completions!
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:01 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Eli is not an elite quarterback.
Ridiculous. You of all people should know better than that.

But I've heard your arguments for what makes a qb elite before, and it's laughable. Completely based on statistics.
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