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Old 10-12-2012, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cigaro View Post

Sure, defenses have figured out more of Carolina's system, that's true, that was inevitable. But Carolina's offensive line has only two quality starters, Gross and Kalil, and now Kalil is gone for the season. Silatolu is an extremely raw rookie, and it definitely shows. Byron Bell isn't Wayne Hunter, but he's still not very good. Geoff Hangartner and Gary Williams are both complete trash.
OFF TOPIC ALERT!!!!

Hey now!! Wayne's been playing pretty well since he took over for Saffold three weeks ago. Many Rams fans are even wondering if he will keep the LOT job when Saffold returns or be kicked inside to play left guard.

Who knew that of all people, Wayne Freakin' Hunter, would be gettin' some love as a viable starter - especially after the way he played and all the venom that was spewed his way in NY.

At any rate he ain't exactly making us forget Orlando Pace anytime soon, but I can definitely state that the Rams got the better of the deal when they traded Jason Smith for him.

I now return this thread to its originally stated topic......
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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OFF TOPIC ALERT!!!!

Hey now!! Wayne's been playing pretty well since he took over for Saffold three weeks ago. Many Rams fans are even wondering if he will keep the LOT job when Saffold returns or be kicked inside to play left guard.

Who knew that of all people, Wayne Freakin' Hunter, would be gettin' some love as a viable starter - especially after the way he played and all the venom that was spewed his way in NY.

At any rate he ain't exactly making us forget Orlando Pace anytime soon, but I can definitely state that the Rams got the better of the deal when they traded Jason Smith for him.

I now return this thread to its originally stated topic......
It's a mirage.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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Kalil being out means its gonna get a lot worse. Cam isn't gonna be successful with the current play calling. They can't keep calling slow developing option plays and deep passes without real deep threats. Let that expensive backfield actually help out the second year QB.

Letting Shockey go, or at least not filling his spot with a new TE was a mistake. Being able to throw and run out of the 2TE formation was so important for keeping defenses guessing.

I'll be really disappointed if they come out with the option against the Cowboys. Demarcus Ware and Sean Lee aren't going to have any of that nonsense. Not to mention Connor practiced against it all year last year.



This has been in my mind for a few weeks. What Cam and the offense needs is basic football. Being under center, handing the ball off, not being in Shotgun 100%. They've forgotten they're a power running team.

Are teams stopping your running game or is the issue you're not running the ball as much as last season? Maybe the OC thinks Cam can take the next step and put more on his plate with the shotgun option concept plays. How much of the power running team and identity was use last year? Was that the identity because I would thought it was the shotgun option type thing and running the ball?

When I think of power running team I think our team 4-5 years back or the 9ers or Steelers 2004.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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Are teams stopping your running game or is the issue you're not running the ball as much as last season? Maybe the OC thinks Cam can take the next step and put more on his plate with the shotgun option concept plays. How much of the power running team and identity was use last year? Was that the identity because I would thought it was the shotgun option type thing and running the ball?

When I think of power running team I think our team 4-5 years back or the 9ers or Steelers 2004.
I'd say it's a bit of both. The option works against teams with less athletic DEs but it doesn't work against teams like the Giants and Seahawks. It's too slow to develop. Chud really doesn't like committing to the run unless it works right off the bat. Obviously getting down in points doesn't help commitment to the run either.

They don't need to become a hand the ball off every down team, but they need more physical play and holding possession of the ball. They try to run around teams too much and not through them. It's the difference between an option run for -2 yards and a simple handoff for 3 yards kills them. It's the difference between consistently being in 2nd and 7 versus 3rd and 12. I think that's shown by the team's 34% 3rd down conversion rate.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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This is the most uninspired nonsense anyone has posted in this thread.

All you can think about is the race card. Are you that racist?

You can't possibly consider OTHER things besides race? You can't think about their situations as Heisman winners and National Title winners? And how that will affect their career in the NFL?

ALL you can fixate on is the color of their skin?
SuperPacker was putting us on there and in your case you fell for it.

I'm actually a little dissappointed he didn't mention Randall Cunningham and Andre Ware.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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It's a mirage.
I am rescinding your membership in the "Wayne Freakin' Hunter" fan club, effective immediately.

Also, you will no longer be informed of which phone booth they will be holding their meetings at.

Good day, sir.

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Old 10-12-2012, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Vince looked pretty good during the 2nd half of the season in '09 and the first half of '10. He was passing the ball well, it looked like he was turning the corner. Then he had that blowup when he got hurt and tossed his pads in the stands, and that was pretty much it. So it's not like he ONLY had success in his rookie year; altogether I'd say he had 2 combined good years but he screwed it up.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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This article should've compared Tim Tebow to Vince Young... a much better comparison since neither of them can pass worth a darn.

Newton at least has that over them.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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As most have said, the comparison is absurd. Their similarities are being athletic, being two of the greatest collegiate quarterbacks Iíve ever seen, and getting snagged in the sophomore slump. Thatís it. Itís just a convenient comparison. No more than that. Thereís no thought-provoking football reasoning behind it. Cam is more gifted in terms of athleticism and tools as a passer. Even though Young won Rookie of the Year, he wasnít as impressive as Newton in doing it. He grinded out wins, but never showcased the potential that Cam did. So I think clinging to the comparison is laziness.

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This is a stir the pot article. Cam will be the target of a lot of these until his team wins more.

Against the Falcons:
62% completions, 2 passing TDs, 1 Rushing, 215 yards passing, 86 rushing

Where was this article last week? He hasn't been great all year but c'mon, this guy waited till he played the Seahawks defense? Nobody has any easy time against that pass rush and those corners. He did blow his opportunity to take the lead, like he blew the opportunity to beat the Falcons. That's more Tony Romo than Vince Young.

Chud is a mad scientist type so he can't adjust to the reality that Newton can't beat top defenses by himself.

DeAngelo Williams: 48 carries, 173 yards
Cam Newton: 40 carries, 209 yards
Jonathan Stewart: 25 carries, 107 yards

I know Stewart missed two games but I don't think much good can be said for a team whose QB is the leading rusher. Apparently DeAngelo and Stewart were paid to be decoy runningbacks. It's pathetic that they're so low in league rushing with the runners they have. The option is putting them in too many 2nd and then 3rd and longs.

An NFL article put it well:


The focus for the offense and Cam has to be taking consistent gains and being in manageable down and distance. If they start handing the ball off and Cam starts hitting checkdowns they'll be much better.
This, to me, is the more interesting subtext of Camís season.

I am an avid supporter of Camís natural arm talent, but it would be foolish to forget the red flags he had as a prospect. People questioned whether he could ever immerse himself in a traditional NFL offense. So far, he hasnít answered that criticism. For all of the wild success he experienced as a rookie, most of it came from a scheme with familiar concepts to what Cam ran in college. The coaching staff placed extra emphasis on easing him into it and smoothing his transition to the NFL. Thatís smart coaching.

Now, fast-forward to this season. Carolina is still running a lot of that same stuff as staples. The zone-read, the shotgun snaps, the route combinations, the protections, etc. Whatís the reasoning behind it? Is Chud just beholden to its success from last season? Or is Cam struggling to take that next step? Iím not convinced that Chudís the huge culprit. If Cam isnít able to compartmentalize and process a wealth of information in a short window of time, then it limits what Chud can do as a situational game-caller.

A lot of times the zone-read/spread option offense simplifies reads for its quarterback. Instead of asking the quarterback to glean all of these separate indicators from the defense, piece together the pre-snap puzzle, and then validate each of those reads post-snap, it directs their attention to a specific area of the field and gives them a clearer, well-defined choice.

While I believe those packages have their place in the NFL, more disciplined defenses are still prepared when thatís the base. It becomes a matter of tape evaluation. As Carolina is studied more, itís easier to pick out patterns. Once the area of the defense that the offense is attempting to isolate is identified, the appropriate counter is implemented. So as long as Cam is reliant on reading just the backside defensive end, or the linebackers in the allies, or even the center of the front, the offense is not as multiple as it could be.

It all comes back to whether Chud is forcing the concepts on Cam or whether Cam is forcing the concepts from Chud. And none of us know the answer. Itís simple to ask for adjustments that revert to a more conventional, drop-back offense with a power running game off of that. But, from what Iíve seen, the interior of the line isnít overpowering at the point of attack and being at the line is harder on a quarterback than being in the gun. If Cam is struggling to develop under center, then his offensive coordinator is going to want to avoid those situations when possible. If thatís the case, one-dimensional formations donít work well either. Those are the kind of screechers that defensive coordinators love to find.

Regardless, if Cam is ever going to be an elite quarterback, he needs to sharpen his mental tools. Otherwise, heís an at-risk candidate for plateauing.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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I'd say it's a bit of both. The option works against teams with less athletic DEs but it doesn't work against teams like the Giants and Seahawks. It's too slow to develop. Chud really doesn't like committing to the run unless it works right off the bat. Obviously getting down in points doesn't help commitment to the run either.

They don't need to become a hand the ball off every down team, but they need more physical play and holding possession of the ball. They try to run around teams too much and not through them. It's the difference between an option run for -2 yards and a simple handoff for 3 yards kills them. It's the difference between consistently being in 2nd and 7 versus 3rd and 12. I think that's shown by the team's 34% 3rd down conversion rate.
Isn't that the general offense which Newton did well last year in though? Granted Shockey is not there for that 2 TE threat, but aren't the same concepts still being run? I am wondering if they caught the league off guard a bit, and now defenses have figured out how to stop the offense. If that's the case then it will take more time now for the traditional ways of the NFL, specifically offensively to be perfected by OC and QB. So that would translate into more growing pains or longer ones.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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I think Cam Newton can salvage and become what Josh Freeman is. Oh wait that's a bad thing....
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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I think Cam Newton can salvage and become what Josh Freeman is. Oh wait that's a bad thing....
Josh Freeman is gunna make it rain against the Chiefs D this week.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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I think people forget how little talent Newton has around him sometimes. Carolina was an atrocious offensive team before he joined the team.

Newton needs to develop more consistency and improve his decision-making, but that is to be expected given that he has very little experience playing football against quality competition for a 2nd year QB. He had only one year as a starter in the FBS in a very atypical offense. He just may need a few years to adjust to life in the NFL. If his team had superior talent and better coaching, it would be easier.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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I think people forget how little talent Newton has around him sometimes. Carolina was an atrocious offensive team before he joined the team.

Newton needs to develop more consistency and improve his decision-making, but that is to be expected given that he has very little experience playing football against quality competition for a 2nd year QB. He had only one year as a starter in the FBS in a very atypical offense. He just may need a few years to adjust to life in the NFL. If his team had superior talent and better coaching, it would be easier.
Hm that's funny. They've all said the same thing about josh freeman .... Hm
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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Josh Freeman is gunna make it rain against the Chiefs D this week.
Dude you know KC is 11th overall in defense right?
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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I don't think Newton is completely out of the league in ~6 years like Young, but I also don't think that Newton will ever become one of the elite top QBs.
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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SO much grief for Cam after his record breaking rookie season.
And people need to stop acting like it was the 'scheme' that allowed him to throw for 4K, complete 60% of his passes and rush for 14 TDs.

If it was just the 'scheme', IMO more NFL teams should be running it.
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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I love when someone poses a question, then when everyone answers it jump down each and everyone of their throats about how wrong and stupid they are.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
SO much grief for Cam after his record breaking rookie season.
And people need to stop acting like it was the 'scheme' that allowed him to throw for 4K, complete 60% of his passes and rush for 14 TDs.

If it was just the 'scheme', IMO more NFL teams should be running it.
He isn't Jay Cuter, Luck or Stafford so he doesn't get a pass. He has to have great games every week or he is Vince Young or teams are catching up to him.
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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Didn't help that the defense he played last is certifiably insane.
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
This article should've compared Tim Tebow to Vince Young... a much better comparison since neither of them can pass worth a darn.

Newton at least has that over them.
Thisthisthisthis.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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I think it's less about Cam Newton being "the next Vince Young" than "What the hell happened to Carolina's running game?"

Game 1 vs. Tampa Bay: After 5 weeks the Bucs have the no. 4 rushing defense (YPG), but without Jonathan Stewart the Panthers only managed 10 yards on 13 rushing attempts. That's pathetic. DeAngelo Williams, with a team-leading 6 carries, netted -1. Cam threw for over 300 yards and a touchdown, completing 70% of his passes but threw two interceptions. Steve Smith had over a hundred yards, but they asked Cam to do everything and he couldn't do it himself.

Game 2 vs. New Orleans: Right now the Saints are very much a candidate for worst defense in the league. In addition to that, the Panthers got Jonathan Stewart back. Cam looked like a rookie and passed for 250+ yards, a TD and no picks at a 75% clip, and led the team with 73 rushing yards and another rushing TD. The Panthers were looking just like they did last year, mixing various players into the ground game; Stewart had 11 carries for 51 yards, Williams 14 for 69, while Tolbert scored a short rushing touchdown and caught two passes for 23 yards. With Steve Smith going over a hundred yards on 3 catches, their offense looked like it's supposed to. But they had their full arsenal and were playing against one of the league's worst defenses.

Game 3 vs. NYG: The Giants are statistically a middle-of-the-road defense, but this is a good, experienced team that can take advantage of mistakes, and create the pressure to cause them. Jonathan Stewart was out again, and although DeAngelo Williams wasn't bad when he got the ball, he only got 11 carries while the Panthers got behind early and had Newton throw it 30 times. The Giants got to him often and he threw 3 picks. It was just a bad game for Carolina, as their run defense couldn't stop New York's backup-backup running back and again Cam was asked to carry Carolina's offense himself. That's not the situation where he excels.

Game 4 vs. Atlanta: The Falcons have been a good scoring defense, and are 7th in passing yards allowed, but they have allowed among the highest rushing totals in the league. Carolina got consistent production from its ground game, and Cam was able to connect on 15 of 24 for 215 yards, 2 TDs and no picks. Jonathan Stewart returned to the lineup and contributed 10 carries for 40 yards, Williams had 11 for 49 and a TD, and Newton added 9 for 86 and a TD with a big 32 yards gain. Again, we see a game where Carolina is facing a bad run defense and have both Jonathan Stewart and DeAngelo Williams playing. Newton completes a good percentage of his throws with a few big plays.

Game 5 vs. Seattle: Seattle might have the best overall defense in the league right now. No. 2 in points against, no. 1 in total yards against and ranking 4th and 3th, respectively, in passing and rushing yards allowed per game. Carolina simply couldn't get any kind of offense going, as Carolina runners besides Cam combined for 40 yards on only 12 carries. Cam totaled 7 carries for 42, but aside from one 15 yard run didn't have any explosive plays. Carolina's receivers couldn't get opened and Cam went 12 for 29 while being sacked 4 times for -33 yards and losing a fumble.

I think Carolina's offense is more dependent on getting DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart going than maybe people realize. People looked at Cam getting 4000 passing yards last year and have this impression that he's a prolific passer, but that number is inflated by his crazy start last year and makes him look like a more productive passer than he actually is. Besides Game 1 this season when he passed for 303 yards, he hadn't topped 300 since week 4 of last year. What endeared him to fantasy fans and got people talking were all the rushing TDs. More than being a passer, he's the guy who ran for 700 yards and 14 TDs last year. That's where Newton's game is best, and Carolina's offense is clicking when DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart both get 10+ touches, whether rushes or pass receptions. They were what made that offense go last year through most of the season; Cam was more about producing big plays and rushing TDs throughout the season, not carrying the whole offense.

Last year Jonathan Stewart played in every game and ran very effectively, gaining 750+ rushing yards on less than 150 carries while catching close to 50 passes for another 400+ yards. They haven't had close to that kind of production from him this year, and no one else has stepped up. DeAngelo Williams was used less in the passing game but also had close to 1000 yards from scrimmage. Carolina's gotten nowhere near the offensive production they got from their backfield last year, and Cam's been forced to try to do more, which has resulted in a couple bad games. But on the other hand, looking at the situations where he's done poorly there've been some consistent themes.

Cam still has over 200 rushing yards and 3 ground TDs this year, which would still put him in the neighborhood of 675 rushing yards and 10 TDs on the year, which after a record-breaking season isn't exactly falling on his face. If you take out the first four games of his career, which contain the 3 highest passing totals of his career, and re-look at his rookie year, if he'd played the whole season the way he played weeks 5-17 his final stats would've looked more like 3553 yards with a similar amount of TD/INTs, in the 20-17 range. If we're looking for consistency and taking out anomalies, throw out his performance against Seattle. No one's done well against Seattle. So you take out Seattle, and Newton's on pace for around 4000 yards for the season. INT to TD ratio in the 20-20 range because of the game where he threw 3 picks trying to carry the Panthers past the Giants by himself. He didn't throw any picks in three other games.

So if you take out a couple anomalies to his career, like the ridiculous start he had to his rookie season and the very poor game he had against Seattle, his performance this year really isn't much different than what he was doing last year. He's had a couple games where Carolina's rushing attack didn't help much and in trying to do too much probably hurt his team's chances to win. But talk about whether he's "regressing" or something is just kind of silly. Again, take out the anomalies and you get a season-to season projection that looks pretty much like this:

2012: 4000 passing yards, 63% 20 TD, 20 INT - 675 rushing yards, 10 TD
2011: 3550 passing yards, 60%, 21 TD, 17 INT - 700 rushing yards, 14 TD

So what if that still means he scored more fantasy points last year? The point I'm trying to make is that even if he is "regressing," Vince Young is a ridiculous comparison because he was never half as prolific. Newton is still an offensive force, but his team's offense has been inconsistent, injured and behind early and often in games. He's thrown a few bad picks and hung his head, but let's not get so hasty in our judgement. I watched a lot of Panthers games last year, so while I'm bringing in a lot of stats I'm using them to support what I've seen. Cam Newton got ALL the press in Carolina last year, but the simple fact is that Jonathan Stewart and DeAngelo Williams were a very good backfield tandem last season, and Carolina's vertical passing game was a compliment to their three-headed monster, not the other way around. Jonathan Stewart was a huge factor in their passing game last year as a checkdown option, and he hasn't been there this year; Cam's forcing some downfield throws when otherwise he might've been throwing a swing pass. And then looking at the defenses Carolina's played this year, it makes sense to see that they've had off games playing good defenses when they're not at full strength. So before we say we think Cam's going to go off the deep end because he has more interceptions than picks and everybody's sexy preseason NFC South pick is 1-4, you've got to see it in a larger context. It'd be nice if we could expect some answers after the bye week with a presumably healthy backfield going against a mediocre Dallas run D, but the team has announced Ryan Kalil is going to miss the remainder of the season with a Lisfranc injury. So there goes the best lineman on a team that's been struggling with its blocking. Really think Cam just got a ton of adoring press last year because of the unheard-of numbers he put up, but it's really kind of reactionary and silly to say he's regressing this year. He's had more on his shoulders between heightened team expectations and inconsistent backfield production, and it's fair to say he hasn't seized the opportunity to establish himself as a player who can win games by himself, but we're only 5 games into the season.

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Old 10-12-2012, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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id chip in but I think its all been said...bottom line they are very different players. Cam did things in his first year that Vince has never shown he can do. Cam has some maturity issues thats understandable, but I think his personality is a lot different from Vince. Just because Cam is going through a lil sophomore slump doesnt mean we should start comparing him to one of the biggest flameouts of our generation. Vince won some games and got OROY and all, but he was grinding out wins and it was a team effort. As a rookie, Cam's team sucked ass and he went ahead and had the best rookie season in history anyways.
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Old 10-12-2012, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Thisthisthisthis.
yes tebow and vince are similar players. vince had more physical talent, but tebow has a much better head on his shoulders so he will actually stay in the league a while
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Old 10-12-2012, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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As a huge vy fan and I hope he can catch on somewhere but young and newton are nothing alike. Newton is more polish and has a better arm and foot work than vy had. Vy wasn't a lazy guy or that he didn't care, he gave it hell out there and in the end his talent level was at a level where he couldn't play at a high level every week. He also let the doubter get on his head and tried to be a pocket passer that second season rather than use is ability as a scrambler. Cam IMO is handling the doubter as well as he can and he will improve. iPhone key sucks lol
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