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Old 10-12-2012, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by smittyjs View Post
As a huge vy fan and I hope he can catch on somewhere but young and newton are nothing alike. Newton is more polish and has a better arm and foot work than vy had. Vy wasn't a lazy guy or that he didn't care, he gave it hell out there and in the end his talent level was at a level where he couldn't play at a high level every week. He also let the doubter get on his head and tried to be a pocket passer that second season rather than use is ability as a scrambler. Cam IMO is handling the doubter as well as he can and he will improve. iPhone key sucks lol
VY didn't have the work ethic off the field to improve as a QB.

IMO he never improved from his rookie season, which in some respects would be okay except that Young wasn't all that great a QB as a rookie.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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As a QB they are not much alike, but I feel people are focusing too much on the comparisons as QBs instead of the point the OP and article is trying to make (IMO) which is a comparison between attitude and entitlement and stuff like that. And also a comparison between situations (start on a high on a bad team, NFL reality hits, then what?).

There still may not be a lot of common ground, but "omg Newton's arm is way better!" is kinda entirely missing the point. Although it could be argued that Newton's skills better equip him to deal with the pressures - he is more likely to have a good game passing than VY ever was so he is more likely to power through any issues.

Plus until further notice he isn't as mentally ill equipped by far - although what set it off for VY was that injury in week 1 2008 which was clearly very poorly timed. Had he not been injured he could very well have powered through and never looked back. He'd still be who he is but he could have established himself a bit better and avoided situations which showcased his immaturity (more likely though the bust status would have just been delayed a bit). So Cam really needs to avoid a big injury ;)
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:44 PM    (permalink
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Sophomore slump?

We praised his OC, for putting him in a great position to succeed, but this year he has taken a nose dive. Did they try and open up the playbook and stop trying to cover up his flaws?
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
Oh wow two tall black qbs that can run getting direct comparisons each other based on skin color, I've never seen this before.
Neither one have been in my living room either.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:33 AM    (permalink
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I can't tell if everyone is being purposefully dense or not...


Both players are clearly immature. VY is definitely more immature than Newton, but that doesn't mean we can't speculate about the similarities between the two.

Believe or not fellow-forum members, but both guys were touted as candidates to possibly "revolutionize" the position. As unfair as it may sound, when you're expected to do something like that, it puts you under a microscope.

VY couldn't handle it, obviously. Newton seems fine so far, but he's had moments where it didn't do himself any favors (to say the least). I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if he couldn't handle all this (I actually think he can handle it, but that's not my point).

I think the questions presented are fair, and have nothing to do with skin color.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bengalsrocket View Post
I can't tell if everyone is being purposefully dense or not...


Both players are clearly immature. VY is definitely more immature than Newton, but that doesn't mean we can't speculate about the similarities between the two.
But why? Why these two specific players? Where is Josh Freeman in all of this? He's big, fast, and also has a cannon for an arm. Or what about JaMarcus Russell? He had immaturity issues as well.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:40 AM    (permalink
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But why? Why these two specific players? Where is Josh Freeman in all of this? He's big, fast, and also has a cannon for an arm. Or what about JaMarcus Russell? He had immaturity issues as well.
Freeman deserves to be in the discussion as well, I agree.

Russell... I don't know about. Russel was fat, and never really ran as well as VY or Newton. He also never really looked productive in back to back games. I never looked at Russell and thought "This guy is on the cusp of putting something together" like I did with VY and Newton (and even Freeman).

Edit: I think the reason Freeman wasn't in the original discussion is because his maturity was rarely questioned. I'm not saying he's mature, I'm just saying it wasn't questioned as much as the other 2.

Last edited by Bengalsrocket : 10-13-2012 at 01:42 AM. Reason: I have trouble finishing my thoughts!! :P
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:42 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bengalsrocket View Post
Freeman deserves to be in the discussion as well, I agree.

Russell... I don't know about. Russel was fat, and never really ran as well as VY or Newton. He also never really looked productive in back to back games. I never looked at Russell and thought "This guy is on the cusp of putting something together" like I did with VY and Newton (and even Freeman).

Edit: I think the reason Freeman wasn't in the original discussion is because his maturity was rarely questioned. I'm not saying he's mature, I'm just saying it wasn't questioned as much as the other 2.
We should throw McNabb and McNair in there as well. Both were big, strong, athletic quarterbacks with a good arm too.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:46 AM    (permalink
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We should throw McNabb and McNair in there as well. Both were big, strong, athletic quarterbacks with a good arm as well.
We know how their careers ended though :P McNabb's maturity was seemingly never truly fixed, but Reid managed to be enough of a coach to get production out him. He developed from a hybrid runner-passer into an above average (I would even go as far as to say good) pocket passer.

And McNair too. He eventually learned to calm himself down and make smart passes. He never ended up being "great", but he did get his game to the level required to keep his job and be a productive part of some really good teams.

If Newton continues to be awesome and gets past this sophomore slump, he'll be better than both of them. But COULD he end up throwing it all away like VY did? interesting question I think, is all.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:59 AM    (permalink
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Freeman deserves to be in the discussion as well, I agree.

Russell... I don't know about. Russel was fat, and never really ran as well as VY or Newton. He also never really looked productive in back to back games. I never looked at Russell and thought "This guy is on the cusp of putting something together" like I did with VY and Newton (and even Freeman).

Edit: I think the reason Freeman wasn't in the original discussion is because his maturity was rarely questioned. I'm not saying he's mature, I'm just saying it wasn't questioned as much as the other 2.
Freeman's problems have much more do with with his decision making on the field. Off the field he is one of the most dedicated guys on the team.
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:05 AM    (permalink
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yes tebow and vince are similar players. vince had more physical talent, but tebow has a much better head on his shoulders so he will actually stay in the league a while
The only reason that Tim Tebow is still in the league is that he sells a ton of jerseys if he wasn't a highly christian national champion then he would be #3 on the depth chart behind Orton and Quinn as we speak.

As for Cam compared to VY. Ummm... no. I'm sorry OP but being a little mopey on the sidelines and touchdown celebrations are not a precursor to total batshit melt down like VY had.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3577597

VY walked off the field, disappeared for days, and, supposedly, attempted suicide. When any of these things happen I'll start getting concerned. Held up the team bus? Is that it? I wish the Lion's biggest problem was a player who held up the bus. As for the Superman celebrations, no one seems to have a problem with the discount double check so I don't see a problem with this.
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:25 AM    (permalink
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We know how their careers ended though :P McNabb's maturity was seemingly never truly fixed, but Reid managed to be enough of a coach to get production out him. He developed from a hybrid runner-passer into an above average (I would even go as far as to say good) pocket passer.

And McNair too. He eventually learned to calm himself down and make smart passes. He never ended up being "great", but he did get his game to the level required to keep his job and be a productive part of some really good teams.

If Newton continues to be awesome and gets past this sophomore slump, he'll be better than both of them. But COULD he end up throwing it all away like VY did? interesting question I think, is all.
But we know how Russell and Vince Young's careers ended too.

The entire Newton compared to Young just strikes me as dumb. If we're going to compare Newton to Young, compare him to other quarterbacks that came into the league with a similar skillset.
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:46 AM    (permalink
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Why do we even need to bring VY into the picture to question Newton's maturity?

Cam has shown more negative than positive so far for me in terms of maturity. He has top level tools but I'm not sure that he will ever put it all together upstairs. Of course the guy is only 23, so absolutely nothing is set in stone.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:39 AM    (permalink
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Even ignoring an on-field comparison, I still donít like the career comparison being made. Entering the second season of Vince Youngís career, we didnít know what personal demons might haunt him. To us, he was still the charismatic quarterback that put Texas on his back whenever he needed to and carried them to a national championship and found some pro success with unorthodox football. That was what was talked about in terms of his intangible package at that point. Not leaving the team, not his depression, etc. Thatís all hindsight. Plus, I think Vince was more fragile and Cam is more frustrated. Two different things. One is a state of mind that canít cultivate long-term success in the NFL. The other is a short-term feeling. You wish he had more control over it, sure, but itís coming from a competitive place. And, like I said, Camís superior skill set puts him in a better position to overcome this rough patch. He has gifts that most quarterbacks who come through this league donít have.

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SO much grief for Cam after his record breaking rookie season.
And people need to stop acting like it was the 'scheme' that allowed him to throw for 4K, complete 60% of his passes and rush for 14 TDs.

If it was just the 'scheme', IMO more NFL teams should be running it.
The scheme didnít invent him. Heís a remarkable talent. That said, the scheme invested in those talents and influenced those milestones. Itís not a knock on Camís rookie season. A special talent plus a special scheme equals a special product. Which is what we got out of him last season. In 2009, Matt Schaub led the league in passing. In 2012, heís struggling to eclipse the top ten. He hasnít taken ten steps back as a quarterback, but his responsibilities have evolved and opportunities have diminished, leading to a less impressive stat line. Cam was given an abundance of opportunities within the framework of that offense and capitalized on them. Now the next item on the checklist is proving he can digest a diversified role.
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:44 AM    (permalink
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VY left his team at UT too and Mack Brown had to beg him to come back. VY was totally immature and a headcase in college, but it was never really brought up in scouting reports because of his brilliant RS junior season.

Great point however that Cam is more 'frustrated' whereas VY had a fragile psyche.
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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In a sense Cam Newton is just like Vince Young but not so much. Both arent leaders and will never lead there teams to the ultimate goal. Theres no question that Cam is a more talented thrower then Vince ever was. Cam is a guy who can run the ball as well as sling it when he needs to. I also think he is a better athlete then Vince. Does he go to the extreme as Vince did when things go badly? No.

BUT...both guys pout why to damn much when things arent going there way. Now in about 4-6 years from now when the Panthers cut/trade Cam and find a better QB, maybe then Cam will mature enough to know how to handle himself and lead a team. But now, I dont see it happen. Maybe Im just bias cause I hate Cam with a passion. Hate how he carries himself and handles problem situations. Would I want him on my team? **** no! But he will always be talked about cause he is that Sportscenter highlight special.
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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But we know how Russell and Vince Young's careers ended too.

The entire Newton compared to Young just strikes me as dumb. If we're going to compare Newton to Young, compare him to other quarterbacks that came into the league with a similar skillset.
What I meant to say, is that if Newton has a similar career to McNair or McNabb, then there really isn't much to talk about. Neither of them threw their careers away, but they also weren't HoF candidates.

If Newton gets close to a Superbowl, but never actually wins one, that's a pretty uninteresting story line. As perverted as this sounds, you either go out with a whimper or a bang, anything in between is insignificant and isn't worth mentioning.

Now, if we only compare Newton to people with similar skillsets, then we can't compare him at all. He's unique in his size, speed and ability to throw the ball. There are a couple of guys who have that rare blend, but most of them are African-american and if people mention their names they risk being called a racist. Instead, the topic was presented from a maturity stand point instead of skill. VY was extremely immature. Newton looks to be less immature.

So the question is: how close is Newton to ending up like VY did (based on maturity)? Most people in this thread seem to think that they're not close at all. I would agree. However, he still has managed to show signs of immaturity that his peers manage to avoid (at the QB position anyways).

I don't think the comparison is dumb but it is a little premature. Newton is definitely trying to win games still, which puts him in a league above guys like VY and Russell. I do think it would be wise for him to cut back on the superman celebrations though, especially when he's getting blown out by the giants.
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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Sophomore slump?

We praised his OC, for putting him in a great position to succeed, but this year he has taken a nose dive. Did they try and open up the playbook and stop trying to cover up his flaws?
No, they changed the playbook from featuring a few college option gadget plays to being a 100% college offense
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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I think what annoys me about it is that Cam Newton was far more explosive and productive in his rookie year than Vince Young ever was, and so you've got a discussion about whether one is like the other based on... what? Their physical profiles. That's really it. Newton did so many things Vince Young just. couldn't. do. Doesn't mean he's going to win a Super Bowl, but failing to win a Super Bowl doesn't equate him to a player whose team said, "I think we're going to try and move on without him," while he was still in his physical prime, and then appeared to have made the right decision. That's the implication with the comparison. It's the implication that Cam Newton is a headcase that will lose his job before he loses his physical ability, and I think that's nuts. This isn't a guy who came in and barely topped 50% accuracy and 2000 passing yards while making some nice plays in the run game - Vince Young did that, and it got people saying, "Gee, I wonder what he'll do in a year or two." Cam passed for almost twice as many yards and had twice as many rushing TDs. It's not even a question of whether he'll develop - if he'd had that season 5 years into a career, or if Vince Young had ever had a season like that, no one's talking about development any more, they're just wide-eyed and saying, "Holy ****."

No, Vince Young was just never even close to being simply unstoppable at times like Cam Newton was last year. If you want a comparison, and you want it to be about talented QBs with big arms, athleticism, streaky accuracy and a penchant for letting bad moods show through, and you're making the comparison to predict a career arc and not just trying to compare him to someone he kinda looks and plays like, you're really talking more along the lines of a Jay Cutler.

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Old 10-14-2012, 02:03 AM    (permalink
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This really comes down to one half of the comparison that isnt being talked about enough. Just how far off the deep end young's issues were. This is a guy that always wanted to quit his whole life, had thoughts of suicide, openly said "i quit on (jeff fisher)" and is now broke. Comparing him to anyone is just ridiculous
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:12 AM    (permalink
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The article itself isn't too terribly written. The inclusion of Vince Young, however, is completely worthless and tiresome, which does nothing more than make this a "look-at-what-I-wrote" piece.

Banks, insecure with his own findings, needs to show most readers a template... or a comparison of what kind of criticism he was going to set forth with Cam Newton. Since he sees certain issues with a high profile player, he is trying to relate those things (immaturity, difficulty coping with failure, ect) with a significant, high profile draft bust, which somehow proves his point, or validates, that Newton is slumping. Comparing him to Vince Young shows that he's on the precipice of falling off the face of the earth, too.

The article had potential to be a well written, unbiased view on Cam Newton. There were concerns with Cam Newton leading up to the draft. I felt like Newton was more concerned with being famous, and not concerned with being a great QB. I underestimated his work ethic and his desire to be a great player in the NFL. But I still have reservations about how long that will last, or what kind of long term goals Newton has as an NFL QB.

With that said, I have been impressed with Newtons words in post game interviews. He has been taking the brunt of his own criticism. He is taking responsibility for his own play and, publicly, taking too much of the blame. But thats what great leaders do. They brush off individual and team success and take full responsibility of their own failures and the teams failures. Newton just doesn't know how to portray that with positive body language.

Cam Newton and Vince Young are not similar. Not at all. They share a couple of the same awards. Accomplishing them in two completely different fashions. Vince Young is a rare and unique case study. He had issues and an extremely fragile psyche. Newton has a disgust for losing in a competitve way. He hates losing. He doesn't hate himself for losing.


The race angle has been played here again, which seems to happen everytime something critical of Newton is brought up. I'm not one to ever see racisim unless it's actually there. Here? I would say there's more of a racial undertone here compared to the hello kitty cartoon or Nawrocki's scouting report, which also had ridiculous outcries of racism.

I thinks this is just a stupid comparison. It's flat out wrong and just moronic to compare the two. Is it racist? No. I don't think so, but I can actually see why people would be inclined to think it. Every black QB is compared to other black QBs. Every white DE is compared to every other white DE. Every QB with a funky delivery is compared to every other QB with a funky delivery. Is is racist? No, it's just stupid, wrong and a waste of time.

Newton received too much paise and adoration last year. This is the backlash phase. It's also excessive. That's what happens. The media blows everything out of proportion. ESPN has about six programs in row from 3pm to 8pm talking about the exact same topics. It's overkill. He had a great rookie season. He wasn't a great QB. People are expecting to him to be a great QB based off his great rookie season. And his play hasn't really improved. So now people are acting like he's getting worse. And that's not the case. Circumstances are different. The team isn't having the same success. Newton included. Not Newton isolated.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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What I meant to say, is that if Newton has a similar career to McNair or McNabb, then there really isn't much to talk about. Neither of them threw their careers away, but they also weren't HoF candidates.

If Newton gets close to a Superbowl, but never actually wins one, that's a pretty uninteresting story line. As perverted as this sounds, you either go out with a whimper or a bang, anything in between is insignificant and isn't worth mentioning.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you trying to say that if Cam Newton doesn't win a Super Bowl that his career won't be worth talking about? That sounds weird to me. That's like saying Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Steve McNair, Randall Cunningham, or Dan Fouts aren't worthy of being talked about because they didn't win a Super Bowl. Not everyone can be a champion and a lot of things need to fall into play for an individual no matter how good they are, to have a shot at winning a title.

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Now, if we only compare Newton to people with similar skillsets, then we can't compare him at all. He's unique in his size, speed and ability to throw the ball. There are a couple of guys who have that rare blend, but most of them are African-american and if people mention their names they risk being called a racist. Instead, the topic was presented from a maturity stand point instead of skill. VY was extremely immature. Newton looks to be less immature.
Don Banks' entire article had to do with comparing Newton and Young in every possible way, and not just from a persona standpoint. Banks compared their career paths thus far and tried to make several comparisons including skill. Not saying I agree, but I am saying that is the context that was being presented.
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Old 10-14-2012, 05:16 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you trying to say that if Cam Newton doesn't win a Super Bowl that his career won't be worth talking about? That sounds weird to me. That's like saying Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Steve McNair, Randall Cunningham, or Dan Fouts aren't worthy of being talked about because they didn't win a Super Bowl. Not everyone can be a champion and a lot of things need to fall into play for an individual no matter how good they are, to have a shot at winning a title.



Don Banks' entire article had to do with comparing Newton and Young in every possible way, and not just from a persona standpoint. Banks compared their career paths thus far and tried to make several comparisons including skill. Not saying I agree, but I am saying that is the context that was being presented.
Eh... I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement that it was all or nothing. I think a lot of the guys you listed set a lot of records (at one point, Marino had ever major passing record in the league). I just meant that projecting Newton to have a McNabb-esque career is a lot more boring than someone like Montana or even Peyton Manning.

And you're absolutely right, the article does compare them on a much more specifically than just their maturity. That's my mistake. I guess I was focusing more on the comments in this thread than the original article.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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@VinceYoung
Another great day of work with George Whitfield QB coach I'm feeling a major big difference in my accuracy and footwork...........WOW

A little late, VY..
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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@VinceYoung
Another great day of work with George Whitfield QB coach I'm feeling a major big difference in my accuracy and footwork...........WOW

A little late, VY..
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