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Old 10-17-2012, 10:29 AM    (permalink
Da-Phins
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Originally Posted by Jvig43 View Post
You are like the most ridiculously bi polar football fan i have ever seen in my life. One week you want a plane to crash and kill your whole team as well as saying you hope your HC loses another child, and now you have a QB with alot of raw upside who inspires hope in your franchise. I'm sure tho next week when he doesn't play well you wish for the death of his entire family, only to later praise him the following week if you guys squeak by with a win.
Its cute that you love to follow me around and comment on my posts. Someone has a crush on me. Its ok, Im flattered that you do itand just cant resist replying to me.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
What about times like the season where Colston was hurt, and Billy Miller was our TE? Drew Brees was still putting up big numbers and keeping us in games despite a poor and injured supporting cast, and a bad defense.

It's just hard to envision elite QBs routinely leading a bottom half defense, no matter how bad the cast is. They can't make every team a contender, but they can make any team competitive.

Drew Brees is our franchises only taste of elite QB play, and I can say with confidence that every week, no matter who the other team is, we are never big underdogs, and teams really don't want to play you, no matter who is hurt.
I agree, I hate playing you guys. Id rather get a root canal! Lol. But come playoff time I feel we have the sane mentality. Our team is so well rounded we play with any team in the league and we obviously proved it.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Da-Phins View Post
Its cute that you love to follow me around and comment on my posts. Someone has a crush on me. Its ok, Im flattered that you do itand just cant resist replying to me.
Actually, I have been posting in this thread before you came in but if you want to think I have a fetish for bipolar, knee jerk reaction fans like yourself go ahead. I do enjoy calling out how asinine your posting behaviors are when I see them tho.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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Actually, I have been posting in this thread before you came in but if you want to think I have a fetish for bipolar, knee jerk reaction fans like yourself go ahead. I do enjoy calling out how asinine your posting behaviors are when I see them tho.
I read that quickly and thought you had a fetish for polar bears. I'm actually kinda sad that you don't now
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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I'm not brodeur here Antoin.....
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
*shrug* and yet, you could point to the giants super bowls and say, 'their defensive line/eli won those games.' von milller has made denver a better team than justin blackmon will ever make jacksonville. it's just disingenuous to suggest that WR is a key position that teams should be spending high picks on, when there's absolutely no evidence, whatsoever, to substantiate that. yes, if your team sucks at player evaluation, a WR will probably make just as much difference as blaine gabbert. but if your team sucks at player evaluation, then the entire conversation is moot anyways.
Please stop.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jvig43 View Post
Actually, I have been posting in this thread before you came in but if you want to think I have a fetish for bipolar, knee jerk reaction fans like yourself go ahead. I do enjoy calling out how asinine your posting behaviors are when I see them tho.
Oh its still cute how much you care about what I have to say. Doesnt surprise me though. Enjoy reading the rest of my posts!
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
Which would be a pertinent point if Alex Smith didn't have weapons of his own to work with, especially with that strong OL and running game to give his receivers even more time to separate and lesser coverages than the actually elite and just really good guys get.
Well the offensive line is better this year finally, than last season. And Alex finally has a decent amount of weapons this year compared to last season. But it's only been 6 games, and for the majority of those six games, he's played well.

But in regards to the post you just quoted, I'm not sure why you brought up Alex Smith in my rebuttle to BBD. The discussion had clearly moved beyond him to a general philosophy of all QB's and I had already voice my stance on Alex. So I'm not sure what your point is.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
name the last top ten picks at WR who have won, or more importantly contributed heavily, to a super bowl win. having a hard time? it's because the position is overrated. the patriots didn't need randy moss to win a super bowl. in fact, he DIDN'T win them a super bowl. is justin blackmon really fixing the problems in jacksonville? how many playoff games has calvin johnson won for detroit? if you're picking that high, your problem is NEVER a lack of 'playmakers', whatever that means, and there's no reason you should ever be selecting a WR ahead of nearly any other position.
When was the last time a superbowl winning team had a top ten pick? The Saints with Reggie Bush are the only superbowl winner I can think of in the past decade who used a top ten pick at a position other than QB. Winning a superbowl takes a franchise QB, which Jacksonville doesn't have, and a lot of talent, which Detroit doesn't have yet. When you're picking that high you either need a QB or a lot of talent, one WR doesn't change that equation. We can play this game with a lot of positions, last superbowl winner with a top 10 RB, OL, LB, Safety, etc.

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*shrug* and yet, you could point to the giants super bowls and say, 'their defensive line/eli won those games.' von milller has made denver a better team than justin blackmon will ever make jacksonville. it's just disingenuous to suggest that WR is a key position that teams should be spending high picks on, when there's absolutely no evidence, whatsoever, to substantiate that. yes, if your team sucks at player evaluation, a WR will probably make just as much difference as blaine gabbert. but if your team sucks at player evaluation, then the entire conversation is moot anyways.
And yet none of our DL were top ten picks, ergo top ten picks spent on DL are pointless...And you could also say that "those receivers and eli won those games"...
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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let's be clear: you don't need top end, calvin johnsons at receiver. you don't need first round picks at wr. you need receivers who fit your scheme and qb. spend a top ten pick on a receiver to help your qb on an untalented team is idiotic, and you won't win the super bowl any faster.
I'm not saying you have to draft a top flight WR in the first round, I'm simply stating that having a good group of talent in that position is necessary. In this case, quantity is important, because you want to be able to be 4 deep at the skill positions so you can isolate mismatches on the field. Typically teams won't be able to line up 4 deep at CB to combat those weapons.

But how you get those pieces is all relative. You can find WRs later in the draft. I'm not saying you need an AJ Green. But it doesn't hurt though. I don't see why you'd be against having a guy like that.

I'd take an AJ Green over a Joe Thomas. I'll tell you that much. I think OL has become overrated. I would spend premium draft picks on QB, DE, CB, and WR.

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Reggie Bush is better than any of the Jets RB by a mile, Brian Hartline is a more polished WR than Stephen Hill and same goes for Bess vs Kerley, both O-Lines I think are a push and since Keller has not been healthy for much of this year so far, Fasano>Cumberland

So I gotta disagree with this point.
And Sanchez had Holmes, Keller, Plax, Kerley, and LDT (even if he's washed up he was still decent) last year. Yet he still sucked.

I'd take rookie Tannehill over year 3 Sanchez, year 4 Sanchez, year 8 Sanchez. It's time to let it go. He's not the answer.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I'm not saying you have to draft a top flight WR in the first round, I'm simply stating that having a good group of talent in that position is necessary. In this case, quantity is important, because you want to be able to be 4 deep at the skill positions so you can isolate mismatches on the field. Typically teams won't be able to line up 4 deep at CB to combat those weapons.
An overlooked part of a great QB is knowing when which of your guys has the best matchup. The adjustments they make to take advantage of those mismatches is also hard to measure. It's not always simply throwing at a LB trying to cover a WR. If a QBs WRs rarely have the mismatch, then he won't get far.

Franchise QB + 3-4 receivers can make football look like 3 separate games of monkey in the middle that corners have no chance of winning if the QB has great ball placement.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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When was the last time a superbowl winning team had a top ten pick? The Saints with Reggie Bush are the only superbowl winner I can think of in the past decade who used a top ten pick at a position other than QB. Winning a superbowl takes a franchise QB, which Jacksonville doesn't have, and a lot of talent, which Detroit doesn't have yet. When you're picking that high you either need a QB or a lot of talent, one WR doesn't change that equation. We can play this game with a lot of positions, last superbowl winner with a top 10 RB, OL, LB, Safety, etc.
The Packers had AJ Hawk and BJ Raji, who had both been top 10 picks in recent years. Raji was a second year player.

But I guess the Packers don't really count in these types of conversations, because they've had a franchise QB for longer than SP has been alive.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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The Packers had AJ Hawk and BJ Raji, who had both been top 10 picks in recent years. Raji was a second year player.

But I guess the Packers don't really count in these types of conversations, because they've had a franchise QB for longer than SP has been alive.
Thinking more about it Richard Seymour for the pats fits to. So outside of QB we have a top ten pick RB, top ten pick MLB and two top ten DTs that have won the superbowl.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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I so hope the Jets dont give up on Sanchez any time soon. That would be terrific for Pats fans. Plus they are keeping tebow for another 3 years so I guess it doesnt matter if they figure out he sucks anyway.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Hahahaha complex would try to hate on Luck
How am I hating on him? I said you guys give him a pass. I haven't said anything negative about him. He had a bad game against the Jets. If that was Newton last year somebody would of said "They finally caught up to him" "Little longer than I expected but defenses have caught" "coaches have enough film on him" and all that other dumb ****.

Same with Stafford, you don't hear anyone say they finally figured out Stafford or any of that dumb ****?
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
*shrug* and yet, you could point to the giants super bowls and say, 'their defensive line/eli won those games.' von milller has made denver a better team than justin blackmon will ever make jacksonville. it's just disingenuous to suggest that WR is a key position that teams should be spending high picks on, when there's absolutely no evidence, whatsoever, to substantiate that. yes, if your team sucks at player evaluation, a WR will probably make just as much difference as blaine gabbert. but if your team sucks at player evaluation, then the entire conversation is moot anyways.
Non of their Defensive line men were top 10 picks.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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And Sanchez had Holmes, Keller, Plax, Kerley, and LDT (even if he's washed up he was still decent) last year. Yet he still sucked.

I'd take rookie Tannehill over year 3 Sanchez, year 4 Sanchez, year 8 Sanchez. It's time to let it go. He's not the answer.
They're good? a 5th round rookie, a guy straight out of prison who nobody wants right now and a washed up Rb.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Sanchez is what he is at this point. Average with good talent around him and below average with nothing around him. I really think it's time to move on. Sure, the front office hasn't done all that much to help him out, but he'll never take the big step he needs in order to consistently be an effective QB.

It's weird though. Before the Jets drafted him, I thought he would have a problem with his arm strength. His arm is more than adequate. It's his accuracy and decision making that's the problem.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:56 PM    (permalink
y.f.s.
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Sanchez is what he is at this point. Average with good talent around him and below average with nothing around him. I really think it's time to move on. Sure, the front office hasn't done all that much to help him out, but he'll never take the big step he needs in order to consistently be an effective QB.

It's weird though. Before the Jets drafted him, I thought he would have a problem with his arm strength. His arm is more than adequate. It's his accuracy and decision making that's the problem.
His arm is good enough when he has time and room to plant, drive, and get his feet into the throw. If you force him off his first target and make him reset, all bets are off.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:55 PM    (permalink
Complex
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Stafford is going to be fine. Regressing isn't really the term I'd use. Down 10 with 5 to go in the 4th and he brought them back. I think he deserves some credit. Could have easily thrown an INT or something instead he stepped up at the end of the game. Good QBs are the ones who can look like **** for 3 quarters and then win it in the 4th.

But yes, teams have made adjustments to how the Lions offense operates and I think its caused major problems early on. Pettigrew and Titus Young have played like ****. Burleson can still make plays but he's a lower end #2.
All I read was Tebow is a great QB.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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All I read was Tebow is a great QB.
He said "can" look like **** for 3 quarters. Not always look like **** for 3 quarters and are currently riding the pine for the Jets.

Example: Eli is a great QB. He plays well in every quarter. However, there are some games (see Tampa Bay) and can play excellent in the second half/4th quarter to bring his team back.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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not relevant and not the point.



i think we're arguing sideways here. would i love to have aj green? absolutely. would i take him over trying to improve my pass rush or secondary? never. and i can't remember a team that was picking that high that actually had a top flight pass rush or secondary. i don't think justin blackmon has the same chance of improving the jags that claiborne has of improving the cowboys, or barron improving the bucs, for instance.

i guess i'd ask: has calvin johnson had the same impact as darrelle revis? what about patrick willis? would the lions have been better served taking revis, and picking up a wr in a later round? this year, everyone's been killing the brows for greg little vs. julio jones. does jones really make that team any better?

*shrug* i value wrs right about where i value rbs. you need one. and you need one with talent. but the idea that you need to grab an adrian peterson at the possible expense of other positions, i think, is ridiculous. draft the JPPs, and i think you'll come out better than the teams taking the aj greens.
The problem with this argument is that its too black and white. It depends on the value you placed on the individual talent.

For example, what if AJ Green was on the board and the best available DE was Quentin Coples? Do you chose a lesser talent at a more impactful position just bc?

It's all relative. And I think a stud WR is a tremendous asset to your team.

Justin Blackmon vs Clairborne? I'm taking Clairborne all day.

AJ Green vs Clairborne? I'm taking Green.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:26 PM    (permalink
y.f.s.
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The problem with this argument is that its too black and white. It depends on the value you placed on the individual talent.

For example, what if AJ Green was on the board and the best available DE was Quentin Coples? Do you chose a lesser talent at a more impactful position just bc?

It's all relative. And I think a stud WR is a tremendous asset to your team.

Justin Blackmon vs Clairborne? I'm taking Clairborne all day.

AJ Green vs Clairborne? I'm taking Green.
This is a good point in that "ideal" Draft Theory, for lack of a better phrase, doesn't exist in a vacuum.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:18 PM    (permalink
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I'm with njx on this one. If a DB or DL have a similar grade, even slightly lower, than a top WR....I'm going with the DB or DL.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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There's way too many DL guys that go in the first round that turn out to be completely average. The cream of the crop of the skill position guys usually pan out. Probably at a higher success rate than DL.
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