Young Guns: Bradford, Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman, Flacco, Ryan

[soybean]

Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend

Probably my favorite lazy argument off of DC. "Stafford wouldn't be so good without Calvin"....."Sam Bradford would be so much better if you gave him some weapons".

In contrast isn't the reverse argument that he would be good no matter who his weapons are just as lazy? No doubt he would still be a good qb but I highly doubt he would have approached or even come close to 5000 40+ tds without Calvin.

right now I would put him on the same level as jay cutler.

[Breed]

Originally Posted by Bulldogs

Good point. + rep.

Your sig is outdated, Julio Jones doesn't have dreads anymore...

[Polamalu_is_God]

Originally Posted by Breed

Your sig is outdated, Julio Jones doesn't have dreads anymore...

Lol. Along with an outdated sig his Stafford argument is based on last year. Doesn't look like Stafford is gonna get half those numbers this year.He's only as good as Megatron makes him. On the flipside, Freeman is on par for a career season.

[Rosebud]

Originally Posted by bucfan12

So I'm guessing us Buc fans shouldn't be too hard on Free.

If he stops ******** the bed with regularity, sure, numbers don't matter, but playing like crap does, n Freeman has played like crap a lot this year.

[bucfan12]

Originally Posted by Rosebud

If he stops ******** the bed with regularity, sure, numbers don't matter, but playing like crap does, n Freeman has played like crap a lot this year.

Oh I agree. I'll say this:
Week 1 vs Carolina: very solid. Weather conditions had us playing too conservative.
Week 2: @nyg: very solid performance but the 3rd qtr he couldn't complete a pass and the defense didn't help either. Still almost led a game tying drive which he looked very good.
Week 3 @dallas : horrible performance. Just awful.
Week 4: vs Wash: I was hoping he got benched after the atrocious. Then plays phenomenal in the 2nd half. Almost leads us to victory.
Week 6 vs KC: shaky first qtr but the. Lights it up.

To me the Eli Manning comparison in there career paths stands with the incosistancy at there 3rd/4th year. I guess what I'm saying is give him more time in this offense and see how it goes. I've seen some progress since the Dallas debacle so there s some hope but I'm taking it by week here. He's still 24 years old and learning his 3rd offense in 4 yrs. Plus with the 2013 qb class being weak, he's going to get another year.

[bucfan12]

Originally Posted by Polamalu_is_God

Lol. Along with an outdated sig his Stafford argument is based on last year. Doesn't look like Stafford is gonna get half those numbers this year.He's only as good as Megatron makes him. On the flipside, Freeman is on par for a career season.

If freeman builds on his consistency the. Yes he'll have a great year. But I'm not willing to bet my house on it yet.

[NY+Giants=NYG]

Originally Posted by bucfan12

Oh I agree. I'll say this:
Week 1 vs Carolina: very solid. Weather conditions had us playing too conservative.
Week 2: @nyg: very solid performance but the 3rd qtr he couldn't complete a pass and the defense didn't help either. Still almost led a game tying drive which he looked very good.
Week 3 @dallas : horrible performance. Just awful.
Week 4: vs Wash: I was hoping he got benched after the atrocious. Then plays phenomenal in the 2nd half. Almost leads us to victory.
Week 6 vs KC: shaky first qtr but the. Lights it up.

To me the Eli Manning comparison in there career paths stands with the incosistancy at there 3rd/4th year. I guess what I'm saying is give him more time in this offense and see how it goes. I've seen some progress since the Dallas debacle so there s some hope but I'm taking it by week here. He's still 24 years old and learning his 3rd offense in 4 yrs. Plus with the 2013 qb class being weak, he's going to get another year.

Yeah but also keep in mind we fired the OC while still in the season AND we made the playoffs 2 years with Hufangel. We still fired him, so that is how bad he was and wasn't well liked. Our system, OC, and players like shockey and Tiki were a big time issue. Once they weren't on the field AND with Gilbride Eli's career took off. We initially mismanaged our QB development. I said it back in those years and now in hindsight I look back and realize we nearly screwed ourselves.

I hate to think where ELi would be if we kept Hufangel. Thank god he is out of the NFL.

[soybean]

I just don't know about Flacco anymore. Some games he's capable of looking like a top 7 qb out there and then other games he looks painfully mediocre or below average.

Against a good defense like today, he completely **** the bed. 48 percent completion qbr of .3

But not only that he just showed that the ravens are no match for the texans this year.

[LonghornsLegend]

Originally Posted by soybean

In contrast isn't the reverse argument that he would be good no matter who his weapons are just as lazy? No doubt he would still be a good qb but I highly doubt he would have approached or even come close to 5000 40+ tds without Calvin.

right now I would put him on the same level as jay cutler.

But what player in NFL history could you have not said this about? Do you think Jerry Rice would have the same career numbers if he hadn't played with 2 HOF QB's for the duration of his career? Elite WR's or TE's make a QB's numbers better, same goes for a QB making a WR's numbers better, or a better offensive line making a RB better, don't know how many times I've heard someone wonder how another RB would have done behind that Cowboys line in the mid 90's.


So how would that be any different for any position or player that's ever played? I'm not doubting that Calvin didn't have a contribution to that type of season, but take any all-time great season in the record books, and take away the best contributing player as a result and you will see different numbers.


As to Stafford this year, his footwork and mechanics are all off, he's got to go back to the drawing board. There was a point last night late in the 4th where it looked like he threw an INT but it hit the ground, but when they ran it back in slow motion, the check down RB was wide open underneath, the pressure wasn't bad, yet he was throwing the ball leaning backwards, his left plant foot was planting outside, and there wasn't even a lane to throw in. He's just playing backyard football and doing a bad job at it.


All that said, the arguments Polamalu is trying to make here are ridiculous for the most part, and I actually like Freeman. But is Vincent Jackson not a huge reason for why he's looked better this year? Or are we only allowed to discredit the weapons Stafford has? Freeman racked up a bunch of stats a few years ago with a ridiculously weak schedule and came crashing back to earth last year, he's lost weight, got a #1 WR this year and looks much better, but he's still not a better QB then Stafford.

[bucfan12]

Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend

But what player in NFL history could you have not said this about? Do you think Jerry Rice would have the same career numbers if he hadn't played with 2 HOF QB's for the duration of his career? Elite WR's or TE's make a QB's numbers better, same goes for a QB making a WR's numbers better, or a better offensive line making a RB better, don't know how many times I've heard someone wonder how another RB would have done behind that Cowboys line in the mid 90's.


So how would that be any different for any position or player that's ever played? I'm not doubting that Calvin didn't have a contribution to that type of season, but take any all-time great season in the record books, and take away the best contributing player as a result and you will see different numbers.


As to Stafford this year, his footwork and mechanics are all off, he's got to go back to the drawing board. There was a point last night late in the 4th where it looked like he threw an INT but it hit the ground, but when they ran it back in slow motion, the check down RB was wide open underneath, the pressure wasn't bad, yet he was throwing the ball leaning backwards, his left plant foot was planting outside, and there wasn't even a lane to throw in. He's just playing backyard football and doing a bad job at it.


All that said, the arguments Polamalu is trying to make here are ridiculous for the most part, and I actually like Freeman. But is Vincent Jackson not a huge reason for why he's looked better this year? Or are we only allowed to discredit the weapons Stafford has? Freeman racked up a bunch of stats a few years ago with a ridiculously weak schedule and came crashing back to earth last year, he's lost weight, got a #1 WR this year and looks much better, but he's still not a better QB then Stafford.

Ehh you can look at things that way sure. But no one is Peyton Manning who can pretty much make any wr look great.

Calvin Johnson is a freak of nature and by far best WR in the NFL.

I'm highly critical of Freeman and his play but I did say he had no weapons. I mean sure in 2010 you argue te schedule but look what he had to play with. Mike Williams was a rookie Wr and good #2. Very good #2. Arrellious "has Benn" is no good. He had a bunch of rookies to trow too and kellen Winslow who has a bum knee.

Freeman has weapons this year and as I am liking what I'm seeing so far is some better progressions but I'm still not 100% sold until I see more consistency. It's going to take a lot more performances to forget that Dallas debacle and 1st half Washington performance.

[irishbucsfan]

The 9 minute TD drive to take the momentum back with 5/5 3rd down conversions was very sweet. He's teased us before, but a lot of Freeman's tools were on display this week.

First Bucs QB ever to throw 3 TDs three weeks in a row. I know, I was surprised too.

[bigbuc]

Guys we need to remember Freeman is only 24 years old and now for the first time in the NFL is working with Vets like Vjax and Dallas. The kid can make two great reeds and then make one that you have no clue what he was thinking.

Also in the beginning of the season he was working with a New HC, new OC, new RB, new WR and new TE. It's going to take a little time.

[Caddy]

Originally Posted by bigbuc

Guys we need to remember Freeman is only 24 years old and now for the first time in the NFL is working with Vets like Vjax and Dallas. The kid can make two great reeds and then make one that you have no clue what he was thinking.

Also in the beginning of the season he was working with a New HC, new OC, new RB, new WR and new TE. It's going to take a little time.

[bigbuc]

My bad... On my iPhone. Didn't see it.

[Legacy]

Originally Posted by irishbucsfan

The 9 minute TD drive to take the momentum back with 5/5 3rd down conversions was very sweet. He's teased us before, but a lot of Freeman's tools were on display this week.

First Bucs QB ever to throw 3 TDs three weeks in a row. I know, I was surprised too.

I wasn't. The Buccaneers have been truly abysmal at that position for the vast majority of their existence.

Let's put it this way... Next year will be Freeman's fourth as the full time starter and, unless he gets hurt, he is going to break the Buccaneers' record for career passing yards held by Testaverde (14,820 yards). He's only 12 TD passes away from Testaverde's franchise record of 77 and his average of 222.9 passing yards per game is second in franchise history only to Brad Johnson's 223.3.

In short Freeman is, in spite of his shortcomings, the closest thing the Buccaneers have ever had to a franchise quarterback.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by Legacy

In short Freeman is, in spite of his shortcomings, the closest thing the Buccaneers have ever had to a franchise quarterback.

That's a good point. He looks like he could at least be a decent starter for a long time. Maybe never great, but he could get his game to a very good level. I would like him on the 49ers personally. He'd done pretty well thus far and seems to be putting 2011 behind him.

[bucfan12]

Originally Posted by Ness

That's a good point. He looks like he could at least be a decent starter for a long time. Maybe never great, but he could get his game to a very good level. I would like him on the 49ers personally. He'd done pretty well thus far and seems to be putting 2011 behind him.

I think every buc has. That was a putrid season starting with a terrible coaching staff.

[49erNation85]

When is Tebow starting over Sanchize . He sucks this year like every year,well Sanchize that is.

[Bulldogs]

Originally Posted by 49erNation85

When is Tebow starting over Sanchize . He sucks this year like every year,well Sanchize that is.

To be fair they both suck, but I think all of us want to see Tebow play for the lulz factor.

[Legacy]

Originally Posted by Ness

That's a good point. He looks like he could at least be a decent starter for a long time. Maybe never great, but he could get his game to a very good level. I would like him on the 49ers personally. He'd done pretty well thus far and seems to be putting 2011 behind him.

To be completely honest, I think Freeman's sporadic accuracy will continue to be a problem.

Right now, I think his absolute ceiling is similar to Eli Manning. Manning throws more interceptions than he should, but is considered a top tier quarterback because he's consistently able to shift himself into the next gear in high pressure situations like the playoffs.

Freeman has shown that potential, too. He lead the Buccaneers to a comeback victory over the Packers in his first career start and engineered several game winning drives during the 2010 season. Heck, you saw it against the Vikings last week; the Bucs needed to put the game away and he completed five third-and-long passes to keep a 9-minute drive alive to help put the game away. The guy simply doesn't seem to crack under pressure and, while we haven't yet seen him in the playoffs, I think he'd thrive under the pressure there, as well.

[irishbucsfan]

Originally Posted by Legacy

I wasn't. The Buccaneers have been truly abysmal at that position for the vast majority of their existence.

Let's put it this way... Next year will be Freeman's fourth as the full time starter and, unless he gets hurt, he is going to break the Buccaneers' record for career passing yards held by Testaverde (14,820 yards). He's only 12 TD passes away from Testaverde's franchise record of 77 and his average of 222.9 passing yards per game is second in franchise history only to Brad Johnson's 223.3.

In short Freeman is, in spite of his shortcomings, the closest thing the Buccaneers have ever had to a franchise quarterback.

I may have been employing sarcasm. Or I may have thought we had a legendary pedigree at QB.

Effective game again this week though, 200+ yards, 2 TDs, zero picks. D-Rex cunningly switched the settings to rookie difficulty before the game, but the ball got rolling when we started letting Freeman rip it deep after the bye week. Now we've established the two poisons defences have to choose from, things are looking promising.

[georgiafan]

Stafford is the 2nd fastest QB in NFL history to reach 10,000 yards just 1 game behind Warner

[armageddon]

On the Colin Cowherd show today, Gregg Cosell said Bradford has a top 5 arm behind Stafford, Cutler, Flacco and Rodgers.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8690715

[FUNBUNCHER]

Originally Posted by armageddon

On the Colin Cowherd show today, Gregg Cosell said Bradford has a top 5 arm behind Stafford, Cutler, Flacco and Rodgers.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8690715

LOL!! Come on Cosell.

Love his analysis most of the time, but this is beyond nonsensical.
Bradford has an adequate arm, around NFL average, but it's nowhere near elite.

[armageddon]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

LOL!! Come on Cosell.

Love his analysis most of the time, but this is beyond nonsensical.
Bradford has an adequate arm, around NFL average, but it's nowhere near elite.

I started thinking about it a little further and came up with these guys who Bradford's arm is either stronger or equal to:

Fitz
Sanchez
Brady
Brees
Cassel
Romo
Shaub
Luck
Locker
Gabbert / Henne
Rivers

Not sure about these guys, but they don't seem to have cannon's.

Weeden ?
Dalton ?
Rothlisberger ?
Eli ?
Peyton ?
Palmer ?
Wilson ?
Freeman ?
RG3 ?