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Old 10-25-2012, 10:26 AM    (permalink
Brothgar
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Originally Posted by jrdrylie View Post
On Dale. I have no idea what you are talking about. Dale was probably one of the most popular characters. I liked him because he was a great counter-point to Shane's character. Dale tried to maintain his humanity while Shane went full-savage. About his death, we have no idea what zombie took out the cow. At no time did it show the zombie who killed Dale killing the cow. Also, the zombie came from behind Dale, so maybe the zombie was closer to the barn, then saw Dale, and started walking up behind him.

On the farm characters. This show already had Lori, Shane, Rick, and Carl as main characters. Dale, Andrea, Carol, Glen, and Daryl as secondary characters. Then there is T-Dog. They added Herschel and Maggie. You want them to spend even more time developing Otis's wife or Jimmy who they knew were going to die. That just doesn't make senese.
To jump on these points I would say that every character outside of T-Dog who has been in the show for more than a full season fully passes the "Plinkett character test" (for those who don't know what that is. It is basically...

Describe the character without including looks or what they did in the movie ( or show) once again T-Dog is a terrible character who to this point has no purpose and if you are looking for an arc for each character for the most part each character has some sort of arc. Can a show with this many recurring characters give each one their own arc? No! As for the farm characters they were basically red shirts whose only purpose was to advance or introduce the characters of Maggie and Hershel
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Yet we had to focus on an entire episode of that red shirt girl and her dilemma of whether or not she should kill herself. Ugh bringing back such fond memories.
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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Yet we had to focus on an entire episode of that red shirt girl and her dilemma of whether or not she should kill herself. Ugh bringing back such fond memories.
She isn't a "red shirt" seeing as she didn't actually die. I also wouldn't call that the focus of the episode. The main plot of the episode was getting rid of that kid.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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Yet we had to focus on an entire episode of that red shirt girl and her dilemma of whether or not she should kill herself. Ugh bringing back such fond memories.
How much time was spent with red shirt girl all by herself? IIRC very little to none of the time red shirt girl was by herself. She was with Maggie or Hershel or Lori she was a vehicle to get closer to some new characters.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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I can't disagree with anything The Alex said.. he is pretty spot on. I will say that this season is doing a better job identifying what each character is supposed to "be" rather than just empty shirts. And the story, so far, doesn't have any glaring plotholes that immediately come to mind.

Like I said in a previous post, I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. We'll see how they keep this season going.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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She isn't a "red shirt" seeing as she didn't actually die. I also wouldn't call that the focus of the episode. The main plot of the episode was getting rid of that kid.
Tell me her name.

...


Yeah, that's what I thought.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Tell me her name.

...


Yeah, that's what I thought.
Beth, and I didn't have to google it.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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On Sophia. Yes, it was stupid that they took so long to find Sophia, especially since that story line is nowhere to be found in the comics. However, it was Otis, not Herschel, who rounded up the zombies and put them in the barn, so it is reasonable that Herschel didn't know.

On Dale. I have no idea what you are talking about. Dale was probably one of the most popular characters. I liked him because he was a great counter-point to Shane's character. Dale tried to maintain his humanity while Shane went full-savage. About his death, we have no idea what zombie took out the cow. At no time did it show the zombie who killed Dale killing the cow. Also, the zombie came from behind Dale, so maybe the zombie was closer to the barn, then saw Dale, and started walking up behind him.

On the farm characters. This show already had Lori, Shane, Rick, and Carl as main characters. Dale, Andrea, Carol, Glen, and Daryl as secondary characters. Then there is T-Dog. They added Herschel and Maggie. You want them to spend even more time developing Otis's wife or Jimmy who they knew were going to die. That just doesn't make senese.

On Carl. You're right **** that kid.

On disappreaing zombies. They mentioned this I believe in the next episode. Something about how when they go near the door, the zombies swarm so for a while, the prisoners just stayed away because when the moved away from the door, the zombies left. Kind of stupid, yes. But it was explained.

On the infirmary. If you are going to criticize the show, at least do it correctly. Glen clearly asked the prisoners if they had medical supplies. Did he say the word infirmary? No, but he did ask about medicine and whatnot.

On Dale with a shotgun. We have already discussed this. Good guys with guns is the most unrealstic aspect of every show or movie ever. Good guys never run out of ammo. Good guys have perfect aim and bad guys can't hit the broad side of a barn. It's stupid and unrealistic, but it happens in pretty much every action movie there is.
Herschel goes out with his son to round up stray zombies in the episode where Sophia's whereabouts are discovered. Even if Otis were in charge of it, I'm pretty sure Herschel would check his own property after his demise. Regardless, it was poorly written.

Dale tried to maintain his humanity but that's it. He had one trait and nothing else. To make matters worse, it's the same character trait as Herschel. Can you really tell me the difference between the personalities of either? And don't try to justify that absurd scene. Carl freed a zombie from some mud and it was the same one that killed Dale. Obviously, it was the same one that killed the cow and even if it wasn't, no zombie just stops eating and leaves their meal. They've been shown to devour any living creature as evident by the horse getting slaughtered in the pilot.

Actually it makes total sense. Why should the audience care about someone dying if they've spent no time getting to know that character? It doesn't matter if the writers know they're going to die, it's their job to make the audience care when it actually happens. You may use the redshirt excuse, and that's usually acceptable, but it typically applies to people who are only around for an episode or two. Herschel's family was around for the entire season. It doesn't even make sense from the show's own internal logic. The characters are the last survivors of humanity, you think they would take some time to get to know new people when they come around. And it's really not that hard to make the audience care, all it takes is minimal development that establishes the general idea of a person. Jimmy could be protective and kind towards animals, maybe he's more concerned with keeping stray dogs alive than people because he had a horrible childhood. That took me all of two minutes to write. It may not be David Simon, but at least it's something.

The prisoners said they didn't make noise or rattle the locked pantry door because it caused the zombies to start scratching at the main door. That's fine and makes sense for them but what about the main group? They just made a ton of noise and dragged a bleeding man into the room. Then, they caused even more blood to spill when they amputated his leg. The zombies can't smell fresh meat all of the sudden? And let's say the zombies did move away from the door after the few minutes the group stayed inside that room. Where did they all go? They weren't in any of the corridors at all when the group passed through them again. It doesn't matter how you look at it, it's lousy writing.

Glenn asked about medical supplies but he gave up immediately even though the father of his girlfriend could die at any moment. Rick, the supposedly determined leader, didn't push for an answer nor did he ask about the infirmary even though his friend was bleeding to death. Please, explain to me how that makes any sense when he previously mentioned the possibility of an infirmary during the previous episode.

Actually, it was Herschel with the shotgun, but since he and Dale are basically the same one dimensional character, I understand the confusion. Anyway, I get that infinite ammo is the norm for dumb action movies with Steven Seagal but this show should strive for more. All it takes is a keen eye from the director or prop managers on set. Anybody with any competence in putting together an action scene would notice it. Hell, the fact the post production visual effects crew didn't realize Herschel fired off a shot while putting a round in at the same time is mind boggling. You think they would suggest to the editor that perhaps he look for an alternate take. Wait a minute, that would actually cause the production to do something besides the bare minimum. Never mind, that's completely out of the question.

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Beth, and I didn't have to google it.
Most people would have to Google it. That's the problem. They introduced a character and gave them no identity. Not like it's to be unexpected considering the complete lack of development for anyone else.

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To jump on these points I would say that every character outside of T-Dog who has been in the show for more than a full season fully passes the "Plinkett character test" (for those who don't know what that is. It is basically...

Describe the character without including looks or what they did in the movie ( or show) once again T-Dog is a terrible character who to this point has no purpose and if you are looking for an arc for each character for the most part each character has some sort of arc. Can a show with this many recurring characters give each one their own arc? No! As for the farm characters they were basically red shirts whose only purpose was to advance or introduce the characters of Maggie and Hershel
Close, but to be more specific, this is the definition:

"A test used to gauge the strength of a character by "describing the character WITHOUT saying what they look like, what kind of costume they wore, or what their profession or role in the movie was." The more you can say under those restrictions, the stronger the character.

For a good example, let's try it with the most intriguing character on television:

Walter White: Corrupted by idea of having power and control for the first time in his life. He is cunning, cutthroat and manipulative while devolving further and further into the polar opposite of his former self with each action and decision. Walt stops at nothing to get what he desires, even if it means rationalizing his increasingly heinous actions with blatant lies.

Now let's try the same thing for the current cast on The Walking Dead:

Rick: In a constant internal struggle over his moral convictions.
Lori: Self-loather.
Andrea: Aggressive, but in a non-confrontational way. She is motivated to prove her worth to herself.
Glenn: Laid back.
Carl: Adventurous.
Daryl: Anti-social and standoffish.
Carol: Timid.
T-Dog:
Herschel: Wise.
Maggie: Warm and protective.
Beth: Suicidal.

I got a sentence out of Rick and Andrea. The rest of these people struggle to get a word or two.

Someone else try it. Seriously, I want one of you to give this a shot because I'm at an utter loss for most of these people.

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]And the story, so far, doesn't have any glaring plotholes that immediately come to mind.
In season three or general? Because I can name a ton of inconsistencies from season two.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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You could only get a few words out of the Plinkett test because you were trying to prove a point. You say Glen is laid back but he also struggles with self esteem, human confrontation, but he displays loyalty and bravery. Later he struggles internally with the choice between self-preservation and protection of the group. That might not be a good one because until today, I had never heard off the Plinkett test, but you can see it is pretty easy to come up with more than "laid back." But I could do what you did for Breaking Bad. How about Walt Jr. A high school kid who can't walk
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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In season three or general? Because I can name a ton of inconsistencies from season two.
In season three. I'm trying to forget that season two ever existed.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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You could only get a few words out of the Plinkett test because you were trying to prove a point. You say Glen is laid back but he also struggles with self esteem, human confrontation, but he displays loyalty and bravery. Later he struggles internally with the choice between self-preservation and protection of the group. That might not be a good one because until today, I had never heard off the Plinkett test, but you can see it is pretty easy to come up with more than "laid back." But I could do what you did for Breaking Bad. How about Walt Jr. A high school kid who can't walk
Walt Jr. is the same vein as the characters on The Walking Dead though. Not a lot to him.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Don't talk to him about breakfast though. He'll school your ass.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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He better get his ******* pancakes or he'll destroy the entire town.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jrdrylie View Post
You could only get a few words out of the Plinkett test because you were trying to prove a point. You say Glen is laid back but he also struggles with self esteem, human confrontation, but he displays loyalty and bravery. Later he struggles internally with the choice between self-preservation and protection of the group. That might not be a good one because until today, I had never heard off the Plinkett test, but you can see it is pretty easy to come up with more than "laid back." But I could do what you did for Breaking Bad. How about Walt Jr. A high school kid who can't walk
I'll give you self-esteem and confrontational issues. Loyalty and bravery? Nope. He seemed pretty loyal to Shane before Rick came along but showed no signs of distress when Rick revealed he killed him. Herschel bleeds out right in front of him and he doesn't even try to do anything that could help prevent his death. Bravery? How does that make him different from anyone else in the group? It's the apocalypse, every single character is doing something brave. It's not really a defining trait if everyone has it. When does he struggle with self-preservation and protection of the group? The barn dilemma? Doesn't that just fall into confrontational issues?

And yeah, I was trying to prove a point, that's why I brought the test up. None of these characters are complex or developed in the least. They have minor traits and that's it. With AMC cutting down on costs for the second season, you think the writers would spend time getting to know everyone and really discovering what makes each person tick. It bewilders me that they could spend an entire season in a solitary location and not get anywhere in character development besides mere baby steps.

Walt Jr, I will grant you, doesn't pass the Plinkett Test. However, that's not a huge concern when Walt, Hank, Jesse, Skyler, Gus, Mike, Saul, and the rest of the gang pass it due to their vastly developed and varied personalities. Nobody on The Walking Dead even comes remotely close to passing it with flying colors.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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He is absolutely loyal and brave. Who was sent into Atlanta to get supplies? Glen. Who helped Rick out of the tank? Glen. Who got sent into the sewers? Glen? Who put zombie guts all over himself and walked through a group of zombies? Glen. Who was sent down into the well to get the zombie out? Glen.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Every show on TV sucks when compared to Breaking Bad.
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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It just so happens this one sucks compared to most good shows. Also it should really say something about the shows plot holes and writers when you need to constantly assume something happened or listen to the writers bs excuse in TTD to make sense of things. Most of the problems with the plot holes could be easily reconciled in a few minutes if they had someone with an actual brain writing them.

Also, the characters on this show are the worst. They are the Britta of television characters that we are supposed to care about. Petty things in this show get exemplified into full episodes because thats how the writers include drama.

Also in relation to Brothgars post, how much time did we spend with her? Not alot outside of the one episode I mentioned where we had to sit through the whole dilemma of whether or not she should be allowed to kill herself. Like Alex said, why do even ******* care if this girl lives or dies? We havent spent any time with her or developed her character yet we need to deal with another episode dealing with if its ethical for her to kill herself or not? God damn didnt we get enough of that boring plot with Andrea in S1?
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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And yeah, I was trying to prove a point, that's why I brought the test up. None of these characters are complex or developed in the least. They have minor traits and that's it. With AMC cutting down on costs for the second season, you think the writers would spend time getting to know everyone and really discovering what makes each person tick. It bewilders me that they could spend an entire season in a solitary location and not get anywhere in character development besides mere baby steps.
Yes but you sully your point by purposefully rigging the test, by which I mean you purposefully held out personality traits to falsely give the impression that that was all you could come up with. Also in your description of Walter White you used what he did in the show which goes against the Plinkett test.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:07 AM    (permalink
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I'll give you self-esteem and confrontational issues. Loyalty and bravery? Nope. He seemed pretty loyal to Shane before Rick came along but showed no signs of distress when Rick revealed he killed him. Herschel bleeds out right in front of him and he doesn't even try to do anything that could help prevent his death. Bravery? How does that make him different from anyone else in the group? It's the apocalypse, every single character is doing something brave. It's not really a defining trait if everyone has it. When does he struggle with self-preservation and protection of the group? The barn dilemma? Doesn't that just fall into confrontational issues?

And yeah, I was trying to prove a point, that's why I brought the test up. None of these characters are complex or developed in the least. They have minor traits and that's it. With AMC cutting down on costs for the second season, you think the writers would spend time getting to know everyone and really discovering what makes each person tick. It bewilders me that they could spend an entire season in a solitary location and not get anywhere in character development besides mere baby steps.

Walt Jr, I will grant you, doesn't pass the Plinkett Test. However, that's not a huge concern when Walt, Hank, Jesse, Skyler, Gus, Mike, Saul, and the rest of the gang pass it due to their vastly developed and varied personalities. Nobody on The Walking Dead even comes remotely close to passing it with flying colors.
Walt Jr doesn't pass the Plinkett Test? What a load of ****, he has a well established character and personality.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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Yes but you sully your point by purposefully rigging the test, by which I mean you purposefully held out personality traits to falsely give the impression that that was all you could come up with. Also in your description of Walter White you used what he did in the show which goes against the Plinkett test.
I honestly didn't rig it. I'm at a complete loss for the characters on the show. Honestly, tell me something about T-Dog or Carol.

And I don't know what you're talking about with the Walter White portion.

"Corrupted by idea of having power and control for the first time in his life. He is cunning, cutthroat and manipulative while devolving further and further into the polar opposite of his former self with each action and decision. Walt stops at nothing to get what he desires, even if it means rationalizing his increasingly heinous actions with blatant lies."

Where do I specify what he does in the show? I say he rationalizes his actions with lies, but that's a character trait rather than something like "Walt sells meth".

Also, I like how jrdrylie took the mountains of paragraphs I wrote in my rebuttal and decided to just focus on the one blurb about Glenn.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 10-27-2012, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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I used to think that about most of the characters, but as they've killed them off we've been left with a group that I like a lot, except for T-Dog. I don't know his name or anything that he has done or anything about him other than he's the token black guy that the racist redneck hated.

I've watched the whole thing over the last two weeks, and I like it enough. Has me intrigued to see what happens down the road. Of course not among my favorite shows, but it's good enough to keep watching.
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Old 10-27-2012, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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The first two episodes are better than the first two seasons combined. Although the Tomas character was overdone.

And what in the **** is Andrea sick with?
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Old 10-27-2012, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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I honestly didn't rig it. I'm at a complete loss for the characters on the show. Honestly, tell me something about T-Dog or Carol.
I've admitted several times that T-Dog is the most useless character in the history of television. The definition of "token black guy" he is only there to be able to write out Tyrese from the comics.

Carol - Carol is a kind-hearted and soft-spoken woman, though often meek and defenseless. This changes though out the next two seasons as she develops a thicker skin and becomes more independent (I'm not sure if personality progression is allowed in the Plinkett test) Carol is also a very devout Christian showing a nearly unshakable faith in spite of horrible trauma.

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And I don't know what you're talking about with the Walter White portion.

"Corrupted by idea of having power and control for the first time in his life. He is cunning, cutthroat and manipulative while devolving further and further into the polar opposite of his former self with each action and decision. Walt stops at nothing to get what he desires, even if it means rationalizing his increasingly heinous actions with blatant lies."

Where do I specify what he does in the show? I say he rationalizes his actions with lies, but that's a character trait rather than something like "Walt sells meth".
I misread the part about the lies part. instead of you stating he lies to himself thinking he lies to others its my fault.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.

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Old 10-27-2012, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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I actually think Carol is a interesting character. They don't do a lot with her, but as a side character we've seen her evolve from a battered wife to a helpless mom when Sophia was lost to a fairly strong woman lately. I think her character suffers a lot from not having clear relationships with the others. There's just really not a spot for her, even though I think there could be if the writers would give her the time.
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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I'm hoping for a good episode tonight. I have liked pretty much all of the jail storyline so far. The focus will be on the Governor and what not tonight and I hope they don't mess it up.
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