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Old 11-14-2012, 03:46 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by Pat Sims 90 View Post
Geno Atkins has been the best DT to come out of that class so far.
Yes he has.

Geno is a beast.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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I'm on board with Suh going backwards. As a Detroit fan, I'm really disappointed that he never improved his game or adjusted when teams started double teaming him.
He's definitely set the franchise back a bit.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Bust is a not much. Maybe Suh, what can be done?

Also let's not act like Watt is 2 gapping at 3-4 de. Wade let's him attack plenty. Watt Is awesome but he is allowed to shoot gaps and rush.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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Fairley is more disappointing than Suh. Suh while disappointing since his great rookie year should get some credit as most teams game plan around him.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Fairley was injury prone and picked at like #13. He had MUCH lower expectations.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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He was talked up after the NC Championship game. Being #13 overall you still need to be productive. Can't make excuses - first round picks need to produce. I didn't say Fairly was a bust I said he was disappointing.
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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Suh isn't playing as expected but we all completely over hyped him after his 1st year. People put him above established players like Ngata. He isn't a bust at all yet. We just need to be careful hyping a player at the next top guy too soon (ie: Suh, Newton, Bradford, Flacco)
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:13 PM    (permalink
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If the Lions offered Suh for Brockers today, I would say no. I think Brockers will be better. He is dominating now that he's healthy.
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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Suh isn't a 'JAG'. That's crazy talk. Suh is a starting DT on every team in the league, regardless of scheme. If the Lions were better in the secondary I think you'd see more plays behind the LOS for him.
He's still disruptive, he's still the guy who's at the top of most team's scouting reports.

What bothers me about Suh is that I feel he sells out to make sacks instead of just making plays. WIth his ability to penetrate, he should shut the run down on one side of the Lions D by himself.

It's silly to expect a player to consistently be able to beat double teams, although Suh isn't doubled on every play.
I also agree that Suh might best be suited to play 5 tech, but when he came out of Nebraska I thought his skillset was high enough to fit into any defensive scheme.

Teams still try to avoid him on the field, but yeah his statistical production is down. But his impact IMO for the Lions is still valuable on the field.
Suh will probably finish the season with 7.5-9 sacks for the season which are pro bowl numbers for most DTs.
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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If the Lions offered Suh for Brockers today, I would say no. I think Brockers will be better. He is dominating now that he's healthy.
He is a rookie and that is a knee jerk reaction, much like how people thought Suh was one of the best defenders in the league after his rookie year. Suh is still a good DT but he isn't where people thought he would be after his rookie year.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:28 PM    (permalink
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I thought Suh was overrated his first year. He made splash plays and cleaned up well but he was streaky that year too. He got blown off the ball repeatedly when the Browns played him that year. In frustration he inflicted that dirty hit on Delhomme. But then I thought McCoy would prove to be a complete bust this season and instead Schiano has him beasting. I'd agree with the article and say the issue with Suh is more coaching then anything else.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Bust has lost its meaning it is so overused
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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Suh has been one of the best players from his draft class.

This is stupid.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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He's not even close to Haden or JPP, he's been good, but still a disappointment.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:54 PM    (permalink
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He is a rookie and that is a knee jerk reaction, much like how people thought Suh was one of the best defenders in the league after his rookie year. Suh is still a good DT but he isn't where people thought he would be after his rookie year.


I am not saying Suh is a bust. I would take him anyday. But I think Brockers is and will be better. Brockers is a man child. He's just scratching the surface of his talent. Didn't he only play one year of DT at LSU?
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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this thread is fun. i love 'bust' conversations about anyone other than jamarcus russell after roughly two seasons.

"player X is a bust because stats!!!!1"
"have you actually watched a lions game?"
"... no?"
Knee jerk reactions around here? Non sense.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:17 PM    (permalink
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I think Suh is better than ppl are currently giving him credit for. But I also think he can be so much better.

I also think he's poorly coached. There's this emphasis on him to rush the passer, but honestly, he'd be better in a more controlled system.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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Suh is most certainly NOT a bust. Obviously his stats have gone down since his rookie year, because during his rookie year teams weren't scheming against him that much and he would typically go one on one with a Olineman. But after teams saw how much impact he had his rookie year they started to double and triple team him so they could neutralize him. So the next question is if Suh is being double teamed constantly shouldn't that free up other guys to make plays? Not exactly. On the line we have KVB, Avril, Suh, and Fairly. KVB is nearing retirement and obviously hasn't been playing good at all and will probably be let go at the end of the season. Avril had one big year for us (last year) but with him getting into training camp late because of a contract situation he started the season kind of behind everybody else and simply hasn't had the capability to produce like he did last season(Avril will probably be gone after this year also). Nick Fairly has been decent but having that injury last season really cost him some time to get valuable experience during his rookie season.

Honestly I would hate to see what our Dline would look like without Suh. I still remember when we got rid of Shaun Rogers years ago and it seemed a lot people were glad to see him go because they thought he was lazy, I wasn't one of those people. I thought it was incredibly stupid to get rid of our best D-lineman at the time. After he left our d-line play went down the drain performance wise and it didn't come back to life until Suh got there. So you can't judge a D-lineman solely on stats. Its a similar situation with a cornerback. If a corner only gets one interception in a season, it doesn't mean he was getting beat by WRs all year long, it could simply mean that QBs don't like throwing to their side of the field or at least near their area for fear of getting picked off. So stats don't really tell the whole story when it comes to players like Suh and you actually have to watch the game to see what their performance is actually like.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:30 PM    (permalink
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I've seen Suh invisible a lot of the time one on one with an offensive lineman, so this whole "teams game plan around him" is a load of ****. He's taken a nosedive since his rookie year, and he has spurts where he makes plays, but otherwise he's been nothing special at all. I would LOVE to have Geno Atkins instead of him right now.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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Three Notable Busts
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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I think Suh is better than ppl are currently giving him credit for. But I also think he can be so much better.

I also think he's poorly coached. There's this emphasis on him to rush the passer, but honestly, he'd be better in a more controlled system.
All of this. The Lions are the most up and down team I've seen from week to week, and year to year now. Just look at Stafford. The coaching staff can't seem to keep these talents focused.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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I think people are hating on Suh because of the dirty player rap he's gotten. I've even said to myself that I don't like the guy. I don't know what it is about him? Just not likable.

With that said.... One hell of a player! Sets the tone for a nasty D Line.

Lions are just a mess in the back 4. Them and the Bucs might have the worst CB's in the NFL.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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I just see a poorly coached player. I see the tools. I see the potential. But he's just poorly coached. There's no discipline. Just go do whatever. That's what they're told to do. Suh was a 2 gap guy in college. He'd stack and shed. He's now in a role where he just tries to penetrate at all costs. It's not his strong suit.

He needs to be in a more disciplined defense, and he needs better coaching. The potential is there. I also think he set such crazy standards with his rookie year that we now expect the guy to get 10 sacks every season. Not gonna happen.

That said, Geno Atkins is the best DT from that draft class. He's a beast and a steal for the Bengals. McCoy is coming along as well.

I think Suh can still become a top tier DT. But he needs better coaching.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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Suh's attitude and off-field problems have been a surprise. But Schwartz isn't a good leader long-term and I think Suh's lack of effectiveness (just like the other good players on that team that aren't producing consistently) is a symptom of that.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
Suh's attitude and off-field problems have been a surprise. But Schwartz isn't a good leader long-term and I think Suh's lack of effectiveness (just like the other good players on that team that aren't producing consistently) is a symptom of that.
Schwartz to me is very like Rex Ryan. He is a helluva defensive coordinator and his personality gets his guys fired up and willing to go extra for him. However that isn't always the best method as a head coach. There has to be a guy who hands down discipline for any transgression. That may not make him a popular guy all the time, and God knows we hear enough of how guys love to play for these types of coaches, however if not nipped in the bud players go further and further until it becomes a liability. There is a reason why the Lions are one of the most undisciplined teams in the league, be it in terms of penalties or simply not executing
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