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Old 11-15-2012, 03:47 PM    (permalink
AntoinCD
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Originally Posted by SolidGold View Post
Tebow is about 250 right now and anytime he is in the wildcat teams are expecting the run. Put him back there as an every down back and I think he can avg 4 ypc. It takes someone to actually think out of the box to use him in this manner.
The Jets have Lex Hilliard who can do that as well but won't cause a QB controversy. Tebow won't be an upgrade over Greene at RB because he simply isn't a RB. We don't know how he will handle the mesh point when he's on the other end, how is his pass protection? Can he catch out of the backfield?

Tebow can't change just to fit in. He is a running QB who can run power lead or QB draws. It's a different story taking a handoff at full speed, having the vision to see where the hole or cutback is and hitting it without hesitation.

Really, the Jets made a monumental fuckup when acquiring Tebow. Asking him to be anything but the backup QB now is simply putting a square peg in a round hole
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I just want to see it fail first. We blow off the offense without giving it a chance.

We all say the wildcat is dead. It was just a gimmick right? Wrong. The wildcat evolved. The vision that Bill Parcells had when he drafted Pat White, it's come to fruition now, with Cam Newton and RGIII.

Come on BBD, even in the way you worded this analogy, it's laughable to try and make any correlation between Pat White to Cam & RGIII. We are talking about two elite QB prospects who have arm strength and accuracy that rivals the best of them in the NFL, they just were fast along with it. Pat White was a gimmick player, little, and couldn't throw. He was barely 185lbs. Those situations are hardly the same. The guys you are comparing him to are full time QB's who throw the ball a majority of the time, and throw it well.


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The concepts are very much alive in the NFL. It just takes the right talent to execute it. The wildcat made way to the offenses that Carolina and Washington run.


I know you truly don't believe this. Just because you have a running QB doesn't mean you can say it's the Wildcat.



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The offense that Tebow runs can work, if the right talent is there to execute it. Now I'm not saying that Tebow is necessarily the guy to run it, but I think this offense has a place in the NFL. And I want to see it.

Well then, I'm not sure what the point is then. I kinda thought the whole point was people trying to explain how bad Tebow sucks, and that he can't throw, thus you can't run an offense through him. How long do you think it'll last with your QB trucking people, throwing passes like punts, and scrambling around in the backfield aimlessly until the play breaks down so you can sandlot chunk a football downfield?


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Think about it. A spread offense with Percy Harvin, RGIII, LeSean McCoy, and some big vertical WRS on the edges can't work? I think it can.

LOL. Yea, because RGII is actually a real QB, and a good one. That's what you seem to be missing.

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Why do you think Chip Kelly is getting consideration in the NFL? The game is changing. NFL teams are more open to college schemes than ever before.

It can work. We just have to be open to change. I'd love to see Tebow run his offense with the proper pieces around it. Just to see it. Let's give it a chance.

It's not a gimmick. It's a system that can work, as long as you have the right players.


Which Tebow isn't....



See how long Chip Kelly last as a Head Coach in the NFL without a real QB. I don't care what offense he runs, let's see how they fare with Pat White or Tim Tebow as their longterm QB.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Come on BBD, even in the way you worded this analogy, it's laughable to try and make any correlation between Pat White to Cam & RGIII. We are talking about two elite QB prospects who have arm strength and accuracy that rivals the best of them in the NFL, they just were fast along with it. Pat White was a gimmick player, little, and couldn't throw. He was barely 185lbs. Those situations are hardly the same. The guys you are comparing him to are full time QB's who throw the ball a majority of the time, and throw it well.






I know you truly don't believe this. Just because you have a running QB doesn't mean you can say it's the Wildcat.






Well then, I'm not sure what the point is then. I kinda thought the whole point was people trying to explain how bad Tebow sucks, and that he can't throw, thus you can't run an offense through him. How long do you think it'll last with your QB trucking people, throwing passes like punts, and scrambling around in the backfield aimlessly until the play breaks down so you can sandlot chunk a football downfield?





LOL. Yea, because RGII is actually a real QB, and a good one. That's what you seem to be missing.





Which Tebow isn't....



See how long Chip Kelly last as a Head Coach in the NFL without a real QB. I don't care what offense he runs, let's see how they fare with Pat White or Tim Tebow as their longterm QB.
Pat White clearly isn't RGIII or Cam Newton. I'm not saying he is. But when Parcells drafted him, he did with the intention of hoping that White would become that type of player. He said himself that for the WildCat to take the next step, it needed a qb who can run and throw out of that offense, which he thought Pat White could be. He obviously wasn't that. But Cam and RGIII are those guys. That's what he envisioned when he drafted White. It just didn't work out.

And as far as scheme is concerned, what Cam runs in Carolina, and a lot of the concepts that RGIII runs in Washington are similar to what Tebow ran in Denver. They just made it work better because they could actually throw.

You'll see what I'm talking about when you guys play the Redskins this year. Watch RGIII and what he runs. It's the same **** that Tebow runs. He just makes it work because he can actually throw and thus take guys out of the box with his threat of actually throwing the ball.

Even Madden said that RGIII is a Tim Tebow who can throw. The concepts are the same. The execution isn't.

But with Tebow, hell, let's just see it fail before we kill it. Maybe he improved his passing, who knows. Let's just see it in action.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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i don't think you meant to quote me there... i haven't (and won't) argue that the offense itself can't work. i fully agree that it seems like the 'next thing', given the qbs coming out, and the skillsets players have. the issue is whether or not the jets have that offense installed. tebow can't run a 'traditional' offense. he just can't drop back and read a defense that way. so if the jets don't already have that kind of offense in place, as we saw in denver, it's a really, really difficult thing to do mid-stream. having 5 wildcat like plays doesn't really cut it, even if tebow really was only capable of running about 5 plays in denver's custom tailored offense.
They tried trading for Percy Harvin before the season started, had they done that, they would have had great potential for a spread option offense. Hill is from the spread option, Holmes can run block and stretch the field, Keller can get you on the seams, and they could have done a lot of misdirection with Harvin and Tebow.

But not having that Percy Harvin type of player and Holmes going down hurt the ability of it to be as effective as it could have been.

But regardless. Sanchez sucks. Let's just see Tebow. At least they'll sell more tickets if Tebow starts. And isn't that why Woody got him to begin with?

And trust me, this was ALL Woody Johnson. After the trade, Tannenbaum was on the radio having to explain the trade. He couldn't even do it. He kept fumbling his words. He was making no sense. It was so obvious Woody Johnson forced him to do it.

I have season tickets to the Giants. During the draft party, we went to the Jets shop. 90% of the merchandise in there was for Tebow. I **** you not. 90%.

I know I'm going off on tangents right now, but whatever.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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I actually really don't enjoy this at all. Tebow sucks as a QB, but he doesn't deserve that. He works his tail off and is a phenomenal guy. He is on the bench and no one but the media was calling him for QB so just don't do that. I am sick of hearing about the Jets. Gut the franchise and start over with class.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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I just want to see him play. He's just so damn entertaining!

You see him side arm a 15 yard out pattern and it knuckles 10 yards over the WR's head and laugh.

Then he does a spin move, evades 2 defenders, and throws a 5 yard pass into the dirt.

Then he unleashes a 50 yard bomb pass touchdown, the team recovers a fumble on defense, and he jump passes another touchdown pass somehow to his FB with 10 seconds left, and he's praying on the sidelines and we're all watching laughing hysterically.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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I just want to see him play. He's just so damn entertaining!

You see him side arm a 15 yard out pattern and it knuckles 10 yards over the WR's head and laugh.

Then he does a spin move, evades 2 defenders, and throws a 5 yard pass into the dirt.

Then he unleashes a 50 yard bomb pass touchdown, the team recovers a fumble on defense, and he jump passes another touchdown pass somehow to his FB with 10 seconds left, and he's praying on the sidelines and we're all watching laughing hysterically.
This is why I'm rooting for it.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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The Jets' offense is un-watchable, I don't see how it could possibly hurt to put Tebow in there instead. At least the guy has the ability to improvise with his legs.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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I wish I could find the gif where Tebow did a reverse spin move in the pocket when nobody was in front of him at all.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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you have a weird bias for tebow. it's the only thing i can think of to explain why you think he's not one of the worst three qbs in the entire league.
The problem is the other two are Sanchez and Cassel.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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I wish I could find the gif where Tebow did a reverse spin move in the pocket when nobody was in front of him at all.
It was against the Patriots if that helps.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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nope, clausen and quinn.
must be a Notre Dame thing.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:37 PM    (permalink
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Just give a shot and bring the jets back into the play offs where Tebow belongs.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:15 AM    (permalink
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It was against the Patriots if that helps.
Best I could find, but still never fails with the lollzz:





Seriously? What the **** was he trying to do?
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:37 AM    (permalink
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Honestly, I don't see why they don't start him. Who cares? The Jets are going no where this season. If nothing else maybe it lets them suck more and get a better pick.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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I just want to see it fail first. We blow off the offense without giving it a chance.

We all say the wildcat is dead. It was just a gimmick right? Wrong. The wildcat evolved. The vision that Bill Parcells had when he drafted Pat White, it's come to fruition now, with Cam Newton and RGIII.

The concepts are very much alive in the NFL. It just takes the right talent to execute it. The wildcat made way to the offenses that Carolina and Washington run.

The offense that Tebow runs can work, if the right talent is there to execute it. Now I'm not saying that Tebow is necessarily the guy to run it, but I think this offense has a place in the NFL. And I want to see it.

Think about it. A spread offense with Percy Harvin, RGIII, LeSean McCoy, and some big vertical WRS on the edges can't work? I think it can.

Why do you think Chip Kelly is getting consideration in the NFL? The game is changing. NFL teams are more open to college schemes than ever before.

It can work. We just have to be open to change. I'd love to see Tebow run his offense with the proper pieces around it. Just to see it. Let's give it a chance.

It's not a gimmick. It's a system that can work, as long as you have the right players.
The difference is that newton and rg3 can attack those defenses in the air. That is something Tebow cannot do.

Tebow is a backup qb. For every system, it has it's starters and backups. Tebow is a backup to that system
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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nope, clausen and quinn.
Clausen still taking flak despite not seeing the field for 18 months. Seems fair.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, I don't see why they don't start him. Who cares? The Jets are going no where this season. If nothing else maybe it lets them suck more and get a better pick.
They don't start him because other people's jobs depend on success. Not many members in New York's organization will (or at least should) be safe if the Jets finish fourth in the division. While pulling Sanchez for Tebow may lead to short-term excitement and some extra spending money for Woody Johnson, Jets fans will still be calling for changes if he is unsuccessful; we also recently learned how Jets players feel about Tebow.

Without truly believing that Tebow would represent an improvement over Mark Sanchez, such a move would be motivated by fan pressure, short-term financial gain, and possibly long-term organizational gains (in the form of higher draft choices) that the people in charge of the decision (Mike Tannenbaum, Rex Ryan, Tony Sparano) would not be around to reap the rewards of.

I'm a fan of Ryan, but I could very easily see him taking the fall for New York's diminishing returns over the past three seasons (13-6, 8-8, 3-6.) More significantly, Mike Tannenbaum should probably be fired. The Jets have enjoyed some moderate success during his tenure, but it has typically been sporadic, and the current team is a mess.

Tannenbaum is responsible for quite a bit of poor roster management, and is on his fifth head coach (Parcells, Groh, Edwards, Mangini, Ryan.) Regardless of whether or not Woody Johnson retains Rex Ryan beyond this season, he may still want to consider firing Tannenbaum for such mistakes as creating a mess in the locker room (permissive coaching, potential disruptions such as Santonio Holmes, Bart Scott, Antonio Cromartie), the financial apology given to Mark Sanchez which will cost the Jets at least $12.85 million next year and $4.8 million in 2014, introducing Tebow to a fragile locker room, and investing heavily in old players.

If Johnson does want to move on from Rex Ryan, firing Tannenbaum should be an even easier decision. Does Tannenbaum really deserve a sixth chance, or should the Jets look for another decision-maker to reform their locker room and provide structure to their organization? He has been a fairly successful decision-maker, but the team is not going in the right direction and it would be wise to consider finding another personnel man to reinvest the cap savings gained from cutting players like Jason Smith, Calvin Pace, Bart Scott, and Eric Smith this year (~$31 million) and possibly Mark Sanchez/Santonio Holmes in 2014 ($16.55.)
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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I agree with MJ. Tannenbaum should absolutely be gone. I think Rex is a solid coach, really good defensive mind, and I could see him being a good NFL coach. I don't care for all the bravado personally, but he certainly does have a lot of pluses otherwise.

He seems like he's lost a lot of confidence and the team, however. I'd give him another year or two and see how it goes. If he doesn't end up sticking with the Jets I think he'll find success with another franchise at some point.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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They don't start him because other people's jobs depend on success. Not many members in New York's organization will (or at least should) be safe if the Jets finish fourth in the division. While pulling Sanchez for Tebow may lead to short-term excitement and some extra spending money for Woody Johnson, Jets fans will still be calling for changes if he is unsuccessful; we also recently learned how Jets players feel about Tebow.

Without truly believing that Tebow would represent an improvement over Mark Sanchez, such a move would be motivated by fan pressure, short-term financial gain, and possibly long-term organizational gains (in the form of higher draft choices) that the people in charge of the decision (Mike Tannenbaum, Rex Ryan, Tony Sparano) would not be around to reap the rewards of.

I'm a fan of Ryan, but I could very easily see him taking the fall for New York's diminishing returns over the past three seasons (13-6, 8-8, 3-6.) More significantly, Mike Tannenbaum should probably be fired. The Jets have enjoyed some moderate success during his tenure, but it has typically been sporadic, and the current team is a mess.

Tannenbaum is responsible for quite a bit of poor roster management, and is on his fifth head coach (Parcells, Groh, Edwards, Mangini, Ryan.) Regardless of whether or not Woody Johnson retains Rex Ryan beyond this season, he may still want to consider firing Tannenbaum for such mistakes as creating a mess in the locker room (permissive coaching, potential disruptions such as Santonio Holmes, Bart Scott, Antonio Cromartie), the financial apology given to Mark Sanchez which will cost the Jets at least $12.85 million next year and $4.8 million in 2014, introducing Tebow to a fragile locker room, and investing heavily in old players.

If Johnson does want to move on from Rex Ryan, firing Tannenbaum should be an even easier decision. Does Tannenbaum really deserve a sixth chance, or should the Jets look for another decision-maker to reform their locker room and provide structure to their organization? He has been a fairly successful decision-maker, but the team is not going in the right direction and it would be wise to consider finding another personnel man to reinvest the cap savings gained from cutting players like Jason Smith, Calvin Pace, Bart Scott, and Eric Smith this year (~$31 million) and possibly Mark Sanchez/Santonio Holmes in 2014 ($16.55.)
Oh I understand that element, but they aren't going to get anywhere with Sanchez anyways so in likelihood their jobs are already gone.

And to be somewhat fair to Tannenbaum, many people believe Johnson is an overbearing owner who helps influence decisions on bringing in players (such as Tebow).
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:20 AM    (permalink
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first off, f--- all these reports about unnamed players saying this and that...I dont even believe it. For all I know, the journalist got a player or two to say something and then I just made a bunch of stuff up to make it a juicy story. This kind of stuff is worthless.


And in terms of the Jets...First off, theres a very simple reason theyre losing - Revis is out for the year. The offense was gonna suck and everyone knew it. The defense was supposed to be great, but it cant be without its best player.

Principle problems with the team:
-poor DL play, soft interior run d
-nonexistent pass-rush
-lack of depth at CB
-weak QB. Sanchez is and will always be a below average starting QB. Hes played well in the playoffs throughout his career, but has never shown ability to lead the team there w/o an incredible defense/run game
-not much talent at receiver. and a whole lot less with Santonio out for the year
-shonn greene??? Yea he was nice when they were using him as a tandem with LT or Thomas Jones, but he isnt a workhorse/feature back. FOr the front office to not do better than Bilal Powell and Joe McKnight is poor preparation. McKnight just doesnt look like an NFL running back, more like a career special teamer, and Powell is third-string HB quality.
-DBrick and Mangold no longer looking elite. Their OL used to dominate, but its not doing that anymore. They have a big problem at RT and arent getting as a high a level of play at LT and C as they were before.



What does Tebow have to do with this? Nothing. All the talk about chemistry and media circus??? I dont really think thats the problem here. The Jets have been and will continue to be a media circus, and there have been some bad moments, but I dont think the problem is Ryan has lost the locker room or whatever people are trying to make it out to be, but just theyre not a very good team right now and they are frustrated b/c they went to 2 straight AFCCG and now arent even sniffing the playoffs. They were already dealing with some talent issues, but they would be contending for a playoff spot if not for injuries. I knew as soon as Revis tore his ACL their season was over. Santonio going out for the year was the nail in the coffin. They simply arent a good enough team to overcome those kind of injuries. Their D goes from elite to below average just from the loss of that one player. And their offense goes from bad to worse without their best receiver.

The only solution for this year? PUT TEBOW IN. This is what he did in Denver. Took a a bad situation and found a way to win some game. Kept them in games by not turning the ball over and making a few timely plays. The Jets are getting embarrased right now cuz they are trying to win playing conventional football, but they dont have the right pieces to do it. If they start Tebow and use a run-heavy offense, the defense is still decent enough to make some stops and turnovers. They still have a good secondary, and if the game is close and the offense has good clock control, they can stop teams from running all over their defense without packing the box. When they had Revis they could send their safeties anywhere, but now they are much more limited in their coverage schemes.

-Mark Sanchez is not the QB of the future, they made a huge mistake extending him. If Rex Ryan decides to stick with Sanchez to the end, he will end up getting canned along with Sanchez getting cut. If he gets smart and starts over at QB, he can save his job. Give Tim Tebow the ball and let him win you a few games this season and help the team finish 7-9 or so, good enough to save your job and get another chance to get back on track next year. Use your first rounder on a QB or find a way to get a legit starter through FA or trade, pick up a good running back, a pass-rusher and RT, get Revis back healthy, and they can be a playoff team easily next year. Standing by Sanchez = mistake, and not putting Tebow in because you dont want to feed into the media circus is not good reasoning. You have to think about football here, and being concerned about people calling your offense gimmicky is stupid here. Theres no way the offense would be much more inneffective with Tebow than it is now with Sanchez. Itd probly be better because of the way Tebow makes plays.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:34 AM    (permalink
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This thread has a lot more pages than I thought it would have.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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This thread has a lot more pages than I thought it would have.
Huh? You know it's about Tebow, right?
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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yup, he's somehow not garbage anymore because he hasn't played in 18 months. seems like a reasonable argument.
Basically, if you're a ND QB, you should just quit.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:52 PM    (permalink
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I'm gonna call it; Tebow ends up in Kansas City this off-season. Whether traded or released and signed, I dunno.

Suffice it to say, Tebow-mania will threepeat and poor Matt Cassell will join Kyle Orton and Mark Sanchez in the proverbial ditch when all is said and done.

Note: I'm not claiming Tebow will be successful, just that the media frenzy will pretty much ruin Cassell like it cost Orton his job as a starter and is slowly crushing Sanchez right now.
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