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Old 11-23-2012, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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Well Howie Long and JJ sure seem to think RG3 is MVP caliber so I guess I'm not the only one. As far as OROTY AFTER TODAY IT's not even close.
Why can't you make an argument without sounding like your trolling? Seriously dude chill the **** out. You don't have to make your point for RGIII by trying to discredit everyone else and make it seem like what they are doing is inferior.

There have been numerous stats, facts, and accomplishments brought up for Luck and your best rebuttle is "well you obviously haven't watched the Redskins play".
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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Why can't you make an argument without sounding like your trolling? Seriously dude chill the **** out. You don't have to make your point for RGIII by trying to discredit everyone else and make it seem like what they are doing is inferior.

There have been numerous stats, facts, and accomplishments brought up for Luck and your best rebuttle is "well you obviously haven't watched the Redskins play".
I did.

Luck = more passing yards
Rg3 = better everything else

I explained why. Still waiting on WHY Luck is the clear cut favorite. Haven't heard anything but because I said so's. Probably because there isn't any logic behind the assertion.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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It's hard when it's such a one sided argument for RG3... I've presented all the facts for RG3 so when the Luck camp produces some actual facts to prove their point we'll all be ecstatic.
Luck reads defenses better and plays on a team that had a worse record last year (But were 12-4 the year before.)


Duhhh


RG3 is OROTY at this point and its not even close.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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I did.

Luck = more passing yards
Rg3 = better everything else

I explained why. Still waiting on WHY Luck is the clear cut favorite. Haven't heard anything but because I said so's. Probably because there isn't any logic behind the assertion.
No one is saying it's clear cut. And if you think our arguments were nothing more than "I said so" then there's no point of even discussing this any further with you.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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If the question is who is playing better or more efficiently then it is RG3. However it's not just a case of looking at the numbers. Luck's offense requires much more cognitive process than RG3's. Griffin is asked to sell hard fakes and make one read throws. He has leans on the leagues 2nd rated running attack. Luck is asked to take deep drops and go through progressions. And despite RG3 being praised for having a better arm than Luck coming out Luck has to make more "NFL" type throws on a consistent basis.

RG3's long TDs against Dallas a great example of big numbers but not doing anything speical. The first one was a very good play fake which absolutely froze the safety. But this was a one read throw where if it wasn't open he would likely take off running. The next one was a horrible throw behind Garcon who made a great catch and was helped by a poor play from Carr.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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To be fair to RGIII, he has one of the best PA fakes I've seen in awhile. He really sells it well.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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Long shot but Martin is still in the race. Number 1 in the league in yards from scrimmage. Fourth in the league in rushing yards at 1000. (only 5 yards separates 3rd and 4th place). Lot of football left.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
If the question is who is playing better or more efficiently then it is RG3. However it's not just a case of looking at the numbers. Luck's offense requires much more cognitive process than RG3's. Griffin is asked to sell hard fakes and make one read throws. He has leans on the leagues 2nd rated running attack. Luck is asked to take deep drops and go through progressions. And despite RG3 being praised for having a better arm than Luck coming out Luck has to make more "NFL" type throws on a consistent basis.

RG3's long TDs against Dallas a great example of big numbers but not doing anything speical. The first one was a very good play fake which absolutely froze the safety. But this was a one read throw where if it wasn't open he would likely take off running. The next one was a horrible throw behind Garcon who made a great catch and was helped by a poor play from Carr.

I think you are 1. Disregarding how fast you have to process information in the option read offense at the NFL level. You saw how fast he is able to get the ball out quickly. There is a reason this type of offense is ran by such few teams. It takes a special talent at QB for it to be effective.

2. How many times has Luck been bailed out by Wayne's stellar hands and TY's speed this year. These last two are the first games RG3 has had his recievers catch the ball when it wasn't perfect.

I mean you pick out two plays for RG3 that went for long TD's and yeah one wasn't perfect but the other was right on the money and is more of the reason RG3 leads the NFL in passing TD's over 25 yards. He'd have a few more if not for dropsies.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
To be fair to RGIII, he has one of the best PA fakes I've seen in awhile. He really sells it well.
Quote a post of relevance and I'll discuss it. All I've seen are subjective posts stating that Luck's offense is more complicated (which I'd like to see the playbooks u guys have access to in order to make that declaration), he is the more efficient runner (grasping much?), He has a worse running game (so does Arod but you don't see it affect him do you?).

I mean yeah he's got more yards passing but this is OROTY we're talking about. I mean even though I think RG3 is the better QB this award is about who is the best offensive player and that's RG3 and I don't think it's close. And once you factor in the injuries and 18 mil in cap penalty plus the worst secondary in NFL history it just makes what he's done all that more impressive.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
If the question is who is playing better or more efficiently then it is RG3. However it's not just a case of looking at the numbers. Luck's offense requires much more cognitive process than RG3's. Griffin is asked to sell hard fakes and make one read throws. He has leans on the leagues 2nd rated running attack. Luck is asked to take deep drops and go through progressions. And despite RG3 being praised for having a better arm than Luck coming out Luck has to make more "NFL" type throws on a consistent basis.

RG3's long TDs against Dallas a great example of big numbers but not doing anything speical. The first one was a very good play fake which absolutely froze the safety. But this was a one read throw where if it wasn't open he would likely take off running. The next one was a horrible throw behind Garcon who made a great catch and was helped by a poor play from Carr.
'More cognitive processes'??
Are Luck's WRs running differential calculus routes? Are the defenses he's facing playing with 14 players??

Good QBs make presnap reads, recognize defensive adjustments after the snap, diagnose the coverages on their drops and make the CORRECT read and throw.

Most NFL pass plays are designed to spring one primary WR free or in single coverage, but the QB is expected to make adjustments off that primary read if he's covered.

RGIII does all of this.

You don't think RGIII is going through his progressions??
One of the biggest complaints early in the season from SKins fans was that sometimes Robert tried to go through all of his reads TWICE before throwing the football.

RGIII has made every manner of difficult and basic NFL throw this season.
The difference between what RGIII is asked to do versus Luck is that Luck is being asked to throw the ball 40+ times a game with little to no run game support.

Kyle and Mike believe in committing to the run game in order to keep the offense balanced and take the pressure off the passing attack.

Luck began to put more pressure on defenses and IMO become more effective as a passer when he decided to use his legs more.

When a LB or a safety has to creep to the LOS to contain Luck possibly getting outside the pocket and picking up yardage, huge holes open up in the passing game.

Taking deep drops isn't really the best strategy against a D like the Cowboys btw.

I think Luck is a deserving OROTY candidate, but don't make it sound as if Luck is playing the position at a much higher level of schematic and diagnostic complexity than Robert.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
If the question is who is playing better or more efficiently then it is RG3. However it's not just a case of looking at the numbers. Luck's offense requires much more cognitive process than RG3's. Griffin is asked to sell hard fakes and make one read throws. He has leans on the leagues 2nd rated running attack. Luck is asked to take deep drops and go through progressions. And despite RG3 being praised for having a better arm than Luck coming out Luck has to make more "NFL" type throws on a consistent basis.

RG3's long TDs against Dallas a great example of big numbers but not doing anything speical. The first one was a very good play fake which absolutely froze the safety. But this was a one read throw where if it wasn't open he would likely take off running. The next one was a horrible throw behind Garcon who made a great catch and was helped by a poor play from Carr.
The Redskins are the second rated running attack because of Griffin. Replace Griffin's 642 yards with Luck's 163 and the Redskins fall to 12th, just two spots above what the Colt's currently are.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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I don't get why we're discussing WR talent. I'm sure you guys all saw the Skins/Cowboys game. Those WRs were wide open. Let's not sit here and pretend that RGIII doesn't have open WRs to throw to. Bc that's a load of crap.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I don't get why we're discussing WR talent. I'm sure you guys all saw the Skins/Cowboys game. Those WRs were wide open. Let's not sit here and pretend that RGIII doesn't have open WRs to throw to. Bc that's a load of crap.
Let's make assumptions based off of one game shall we?

Ahh yes the neg reps starting to come in because you can't support your stance. Standard of dickcountdown cronies. Yes Luck and RG3 are both great rookies, that's not the argument here. And yes Dallas lost, deal with it.

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Old 11-23-2012, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Let's make assumptions based off of one game shall we?
You're like a guy who won't stop posting about Peyton Manning in 2006. And only posts about Peyton Manning. Oh hey, you have a television. You like the Colts. Sweet.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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You're like a guy who won't stop posting about Peyton Manning in 2006. And only posts about Peyton Manning. Oh hey, you have a television. You like the Colts. Sweet.
And what are u doing?
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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Let's make assumptions based off of one game shall we?

Ahh yes the neg reps starting to come in because you can't support your stance. Standard of dickcountdown cronies.
I'm an NFC East fan in NJ. You don't think I've seen at least 5 RGIII games by now? Like seriously?

But no. Let's assume I'm basing my opinion on 1 game bc it isn't the same opinion as yours. Makes much more sense.

Let's ignore how your rushing attack (that I admit RGIII is partly responsible for) has no effect on your passing game. Let's ignore how Indy's lack of run game effect's Luck bc Aaron Rodgers can play well without a run game.

Brilliant logic.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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And what are u doing?
People aren't arguing with you because they think RGIII doesn't have any claim to the award, but because you don't understand that RGIII really is not "running away with it." And you've said things to that effect over and over again. He's had two great games in a row statistically. They follow a couple weeks of decidedly mediocre play. He's a rookie. He's up and down. If he has 5 more games like this and Andrew Luck's play plateaus, then he's got a leg up, sure. But Luck could also very easily have a huge game against Buffalo on Sunday. Then what? I'm sure you're still going to be stumping for RGIII, because you've made it clear through this entire thread that you really, really really want him to win. You don't really engage any of the serious criticism of him, or conversely, the very strong case Andrew Luck is making for his own OROTY campaign. You aren't engaging anyone in a real discussion, you're just saying how much you like RGIII and people are responding in kind. i.e., that your posts are annoying, even though RGIII is having a fantastic rookie year.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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I'm just curious how Luck is so neck and Neck with RG3? I'm looking at the total body of work, not the last two games. I thought it was close a few weeks ago but now I don't think it's close and I'm still waiting on why you guys think it is.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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I'm an NFC East fan in NJ. You don't think I've seen at least 5 RGIII games by now? Like seriously?

But no. Let's assume I'm basing my opinion on 1 game bc it isn't the same opinion as yours. Makes much more sense.

Let's ignore how your rushing attack (that I admit RGIII is partly responsible for) has no effect on your passing game. Let's ignore how Indy's lack of run game effect's Luck bc Aaron Rodgers can play well without a run game.

Brilliant logic.
Well you did say 'Dallas game' so im sorry for assuming that's what you were talking about (sigh). And there were at least 5 balls yesterday where he threaded the needle but funny how you disregard those. And if you've watched that many games you'd also make a point to note all the drops and him playing with a third string TE and no Garcon for much of the season. Not only that but the fact that he spreads the ball out so much just proves he reads his progressions. He doesn't force the ball to one guy all game cause he doesn't have that luxury.

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Old 11-23-2012, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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I'm just curious how Luck is so neck and Neck with RG3? I'm looking at the total body of work, not the last two games. I thought it was close a few weeks ago but now I don't think it's close and I'm still waiting on why you guys think it is.
One thing that's going to help you here is to understand that it is not a contest to see who has the prettiest stats. If it was, RGIII wins. If we can put that aside for a moment, you can see the significance of what Luck is doing.

And again - Griffin has had two fantastic weeks. If Luck falters this week, say the Colts lose to Buffalo - Griffin will be in great position to win the award, and I have no problem saying that. But prior to yesterday, they were really close. It doesn't hurt at all that Griffin had one of his best games against the season against Dallas on Thanksgiving. That's huge for PR. But over the course of the season, Luck's contribution to his offense is a bit more... I'm actually not quite sure what the word would be. Stable? Consistent? By the book? If you want to say RGIII is this year's Cam Newton, look at what Newton has looked like this year as Carolina's run game has laid a giant deuce. Washington is running a similar offense, and a lot of their passing game is predicated on the run. Which is fine, but it's important to see how their respective offenses work, because they work differently; this is why you can't just lay their stats side-by-side and pick one.

As has been said before, Griffin is a terrific athlete. Luck is, too, but Griffin's one of those guys who can do it "his way." He's got a style all his own, and it's a lot of fun to watch. But it's inconsistent. He's always reacting to defenses, improvising, making things up as he goes along. And he's athletic enough to pull it off, at least for now. On the other hand, Andrew Luck is not as unpredictable. But he's better at the little things. Andrew Luck is going to keep improving his style of play - I don't know how much you can "improve" on your ability to scramble in the open field. There's a reason running backs are the easiest players to plug-and-play straight from college; its all instinctive.

That's not a slight to RGIII, or an insinuation that he's not a cerebral player, or whatever, but when you watch Luck you see him always trying to pass, always trying to push the ball downfield, always trying to stick to his progressions. He'll run it, too, but watching the two RGIII clearly has a different mentality about running the ball. Where Luck will take what he's given and sometimes make a grittier play in a critical situation, RGIII is much more on the attack when he runs with the ball. Again - not necessarily a bad thing at all, and it sure makes him fun to watch, but you have to understand that their playing styles are different. RGIII's running ability is what leads to those short crossing routes being open all day as linebackers have to run horizontally all the way across the field, and receivers can always get open against that, and Washington's overall run game is good enough to use the playaction to connect on deep throws. So RGIII has a fantastic QB rating and a lot of big plays.

Andrew Luck hits "NFL throws" better than RGIII. Not the deep bombs, but the kind of difficult throws you need to make consistently. Throws you need to be able to make when the defense knows it's coming. That's Luck's strength. The Colts aren't having him run all over the place and walk the defense all over the field trying to mirror him and thus open up downfield passing options; they have him run standard plays that he'll be running the rest of his career, and he's doing well. The Colts were a very bad team last year, and now they're in the middle of the playoff race. That's huge. The Colts' running backs are pretty bad. If you want to say Washington's aren't any better, and they just have Shanahan, or something... whatever. Washington's ground attack is much better than Indy's, and that's huge for RGIII's style of play. I still have reservations about how well he'd play when Washington's run game can't get off the ground. That question doesn't apply to Luck, because Indianapolis hasn't had a good ground game for years. As crucial as RGIII is to Washington's offense, Luck is even more critical to his, and that's why you have to look past the stats a bit.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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Yeah that's why if Luck won OROTY the year I wouldn't get bent.
When you watch him play he makes enough 'wow' plays of his own, where he's dictating to a defense and not the other way around.

The offense Kyle Shanahan is running now for RGIII wouldn't be much different IMO if Luck were the SKins QB, except for the read option elements. But the bootlegs would still be there, the playaction, the rollouts.

I think Luck's stats would be very similar to RG3's in the Skins offense if they switched teams.

W/Ls. One of them is going to have them in his favor. The other won't.
It would really be something if BOTH these guys led their teams to the playoffs.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:33 PM    (permalink
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Good write up with quite a few inaccuracies. The first is assuming RG3 isn't looking to pass as much as Luck and that Luck is putting the ball in tighter windows than RG3. That just simply isn't true. Unless the play is a designed run RG3 is always looking to throw first and run second. It's not his fault that he's fast and his offense uses that to its advantage. You guys are knocking RG3 for that and it's just stupid to not take advantage of that wrinkle of his game but in no way should be a knock against his ability to go through progressions, find the open man, and deliver the ball accurately. If anything he does that much better than Luck considering none of his recievers are an obvious security blanket like Wayne is. With how often Luck throws to wayne I'd say He throws to his first read / primary more than RG3 which would mean he doesn't go through his progressions as well as RG3 which probably explain why Luck has 3x as many picks as RG3.

Even looking past the stats RG3 has been better (though both are good).

And what is an 'NFL Pass' to you? Are you implying that RG3's passes aren't NFL throws? FFS that's just ludicrously arrogant.

And I think you lost all credibility when you called RG3 inconsistent because of his style of QB play. That's where I'll stop responding because that's simply a laughable comment. It's like you're making up stuff to prove your point so it's hard to take your arguments seriously. I guess when all the stats tell another story people have to start making up subjective conjecture to prove a point that simply isn't there. It's sad really.

This isn't a thread asking who's the more prototypical pocket passer, is it?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
One thing that's going to help you here is to understand that it is not a contest to see who has the prettiest stats. If it was, RGIII wins. If we can put that aside for a moment, you can see the significance of what Luck is doing.

And again - Griffin has had two fantastic weeks. If Luck falters this week, say the Colts lose to Buffalo - Griffin will be in great position to win the award, and I have no problem saying that. But prior to yesterday, they were really close. It doesn't hurt at all that Griffin had one of his best games against the season against Dallas on Thanksgiving. That's huge for PR. But over the course of the season, Luck's contribution to his offense is a bit more... I'm actually not quite sure what the word would be. Stable? Consistent? By the book? If you want to say RGIII is this year's Cam Newton, look at what Newton has looked like this year as Carolina's run game has laid a giant deuce. Washington is running a similar offense, and a lot of their passing game is predicated on the run. Which is fine, but it's important to see how their respective offenses work, because they work differently; this is why you can't just lay their stats side-by-side and pick one.

As has been said before, Griffin is a terrific athlete. Luck is, too, but Griffin's one of those guys who can do it "his way." He's got a style all his own, and it's a lot of fun to watch. But it's inconsistent. He's always reacting to defenses, improvising, making things up as he goes along. And he's athletic enough to pull it off, at least for now. On the other hand, Andrew Luck is not as unpredictable. But he's better at the little things. Andrew Luck is going to keep improving his style of play - I don't know how much you can "improve" on your ability to scramble in the open field. There's a reason running backs are the easiest players to plug-and-play straight from college; its all instinctive.

That's not a slight to RGIII, or an insinuation that he's not a cerebral player, or whatever, but when you watch Luck you see him always trying to pass, always trying to push the ball downfield, always trying to stick to his progressions. He'll run it, too, but watching the two RGIII clearly has a different mentality about running the ball. Where Luck will take what he's given and sometimes make a grittier play in a critical situation, RGIII is much more on the attack when he runs with the ball. Again - not necessarily a bad thing at all, and it sure makes him fun to watch, but you have to understand that their playing styles are different. RGIII's running ability is what leads to those short crossing routes being open all day as linebackers have to run horizontally all the way across the field, and receivers can always get open against that, and Washington's overall run game is good enough to use the playaction to connect on deep throws. So RGIII has a fantastic QB rating and a lot of big plays.

Andrew Luck hits "NFL throws" better than RGIII. Not the deep bombs, but the kind of difficult throws you need to make consistently. Throws you need to be able to make when the defense knows it's coming. That's Luck's strength. The Colts aren't having him run all over the place and walk the defense all over the field trying to mirror him and thus open up downfield passing options; they have him run standard plays that he'll be running the rest of his career, and he's doing well. The Colts were a very bad team last year, and now they're in the middle of the playoff race. That's huge. The Colts' running backs are pretty bad. If you want to say Washington's aren't any better, and they just have Shanahan, or something... whatever. Washington's ground attack is much better than Indy's, and that's huge for RGIII's style of play. I still have reservations about how well he'd play when Washington's run game can't get off the ground. That question doesn't apply to Luck, because Indianapolis hasn't had a good ground game for years. As crucial as RGIII is to Washington's offense, Luck is even more critical to his, and that's why you have to look past the stats a bit.

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Old 11-23-2012, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by kBuc5 View Post
Long shot but Martin is still in the race. Number 1 in the league in yards from scrimmage. Fourth in the league in rushing yards at 1000. (only 5 yards separates 3rd and 4th place). Lot of football left.
As much as I'd like Martin to win it, he's got no shot.

All you have to do these days to win OROY is be a quarterback and not completely suck. Luck is playing well and has his team on the verge of a wild card berth and RG3 has a much higher national profile that Doug Martin does.

The fact that Martin isn't going to win it doesn't really bother me, though. I'm content with the fact that my team has him in the backfield.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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I have poor reading comprehension.
The whole point here is that the things which earn Luck such high praise are not always reflected explicitly in the stat sheet. Is that simple enough for you?
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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If Luck were doing all these things so well wouldn't there be something besides empirical testaments from arm chair QB coaches showing the results of such mastery of the QB position? It's obvious you have a hard on for luck and want him to be this all world QB but he's been painstakenly inconsistent and well, average. You'll pull out any nonsensical hyperbole like 'NFL throws' for example, to try to talk him up when in fact RG3 makes better reads, more accurate throws, and is better at going through his progressions.

Of course then you'll go into ad hominem conjecture like a 3 year old brat who doesn't get what they want. You simply think your opinion matters more than the facts and it doesn't.
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