Who is the current OROTY?

[njx9]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

what about Sanu?

who is sanu?

[Caddy]

Originally Posted by njx9

who is sanu?

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by gpngc

Completely disagree.

RG3, like Luck, makes his offense go. The running game, the passing game, it all works because of RG3.

Morris is a fine player, but make no mistake, his success can directly be attributed to the presence of RG3. He would not be doing anything close to what he's doing with Cousins at QB.

Yeah, I'll eat that. Kind of beside the point I was trying to make. Without that comment - it's typically accepted that there's a steeper learning curve for receivers than for running backs in the NFL, and right now the Colts are no. 8 in passing yards, and Luck is doing it with 2 rookie tight ends, a rookie wide receiver, a guy who totally destroyed his knee two years ago and who people thought might be done, and, of course, Reggie Wayne... who some people thought was on the downswing of his career and wondered if Indy would pay to keep him. He's obviously has had a fantastic season, but the difference between this year and last is pretty huge. Obviously Alfred Morris is a rookie himself, but to me it seems like RGIII has more established players to throw to. It's just an opinion, though - maybe people will just be saying Indianapolis had a slam-dunk draft in five years. And it's not hard to say "Well, he does have Reggie Wayne." So that wasn't the strongest statement in what I wrote.

[bigbluedefense]

So I went back and watched the Redskins/Cowboys game with the intent of studying the scheme and RGIII in particular. I noticed a lot of 1 read plays, lots of screen passes or bootleg 1 read or run type of plays. Other passes were heavily involved with play action pass, which often left guys wide open down the field.

He had a lot of wide open wide receivers that many qbs would hit off play action pass. Also I find it funny that Luck is being knocked for Wayne making acrobatic catches for him, yet we completely ignore how Pierre Garcon made an acrobatic catch and run for like 60 yards on 1 of Griffin's TD throws that should have been intercepted.

Griffin made a lot of throws he shouldn't have made. He did not read the defense properly on several throws, but he has such a rocket arm he got it in there anyway. It was also a result of poor awareness by the Cowboys in zone coverage.

What stood out to me the most was when Griffin was forced to go into 3rd and long. No more college stuff. 3rd and long is a traditional offensive set with a traditional drop back and you have to read and make progressions the typical way. He did not do too well in these situations. Definitely not on Luck's level in this aspect of his game. Often held the ball too long and made his reads late.

Having said that, he still had an amazing game bc of his incredible athletic ability, incredible arm, and accuracy. He can do and get away with things that most quarterbacks can't get away with. And we shouldn't hold that against him, but we also need to understand that he has some notable flaws to his game that will get exposed without continued development.

Shanny does a tremendous job of putting RGIII in a scheme that masks his weaknesses and takes advantage of his strengths. But I fully expect teams to adjust to this next year. So next year is the true test, he needs to develop his game to continue at his amazing level of play.

And I expect him to. I think RGIII has what it takes to develop. But his level of development isn't on Luck's level right now.

[Rosebud]

So we can all agree it's between Luck and Russel Wilson, right? With Martin as a darkhorse.

[Jvig43]

Originally Posted by Rosebud

So we can all agree it's between Luck and Russel Wilson, right? With Martin as a darkhorse.

Pretty much only I'd say Morris is in there for dark horse 1b.

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

So I went back and watched the Redskins/Cowboys game with the intent of studying the scheme and RGIII in particular. I noticed a lot of 1 read plays, lots of screen passes or bootleg 1 read or run type of plays. Other passes were heavily involved with play action pass, which often left guys wide open down the field.

He had a lot of wide open wide receivers that many qbs would hit off play action pass. Also I find it funny that Luck is being knocked for Wayne making acrobatic catches for him, yet we completely ignore how Pierre Garcon made an acrobatic catch and run for like 60 yards on 1 of Griffin's TD throws that should have been intercepted.

Griffin made a lot of throws he shouldn't have made. He did not read the defense properly on several throws, but he has such a rocket arm he got it in there anyway. It was also a result of poor awareness by the Cowboys in zone coverage.

What stood out to me the most was when Griffin was forced to go into 3rd and long. No more college stuff. 3rd and long is a traditional offensive set with a traditional drop back and you have to read and make progressions the typical way. He did not do too well in these situations. Definitely not on Luck's level in this aspect of his game. Often held the ball too long and made his reads late.

Having said that, he still had an amazing game bc of his incredible athletic ability, incredible arm, and accuracy. He can do and get away with things that most quarterbacks can't get away with. And we shouldn't hold that against him, but we also need to understand that he has some notable flaws to his game that will get exposed without continued development.

Shanny does a tremendous job of putting RGIII in a scheme that masks his weaknesses and takes advantage of his strengths. But I fully expect teams to adjust to this next year. So next year is the true test, he needs to develop his game to continue at his amazing level of play.

And I expect him to. I think RGIII has what it takes to develop. But his level of development isn't on Luck's level right now.

To me this is spot on. It doesn't matter if this is the offense or he gets by because of his athleticism, but RG3 does not do the same things Luck does. It works now, however it won't always work. There is a reason why the top QBs in the NFL are pure pocket passers. If you can't take a 5 or 7 step drop on 3rd and long and go through your reads then eventually you are going to lose. Teams will get used to Griffin's tendencies as a runner and close down the Redskins running game. He needs to able to throw his way out.

The long TD off of play action was the definition of a one read throw based off play action. The WR came from the slot on his right, ran right at the safety and that is who RG3 read. When the safety froze the play was open. If the safety read pass he was likely going to tuck it and run.

As I have stated before, RG3 is playing more efficiently than Luck, however Luck is asked to do so much more and IMO is the better player and will be the better player

[FUNBUNCHER]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

So I went back and watched the Redskins/Cowboys game with the intent of studying the scheme and RGIII in particular. I noticed a lot of 1 read plays, lots of screen passes or bootleg 1 read or run type of plays. Other passes were heavily involved with play action pass, which often left guys wide open down the field.

He had a lot of wide open wide receivers that many qbs would hit off play action pass. Also I find it funny that Luck is being knocked for Wayne making acrobatic catches for him, yet we completely ignore how Pierre Garcon made an acrobatic catch and run for like 60 yards on 1 of Griffin's TD throws that should have been intercepted.

Griffin made a lot of throws he shouldn't have made. He did not read the defense properly on several throws, but he has such a rocket arm he got it in there anyway. It was also a result of poor awareness by the Cowboys in zone coverage.

What stood out to me the most was when Griffin was forced to go into 3rd and long. No more college stuff. 3rd and long is a traditional offensive set with a traditional drop back and you have to read and make progressions the typical way. He did not do too well in these situations. Definitely not on Luck's level in this aspect of his game. Often held the ball too long and made his reads late.

Having said that, he still had an amazing game bc of his incredible athletic ability, incredible arm, and accuracy. He can do and get away with things that most quarterbacks can't get away with. And we shouldn't hold that against him, but we also need to understand that he has some notable flaws to his game that will get exposed without continued development.

Shanny does a tremendous job of putting RGIII in a scheme that masks his weaknesses and takes advantage of his strengths. But I fully expect teams to adjust to this next year. So next year is the true test, he needs to develop his game to continue at his amazing level of play.

And I expect him to. I think RGIII has what it takes to develop. But his level of development isn't on Luck's level right now.

IMO there's an assumption in this analysis that RG3's production is inflated by screen plays, his running ability and one read passing plays.

When you see a so called 'one read' passing play run by the Skins, look and see how many WRs are out on the pattern and see how much if at all RG3 shifts/scrambles to find the guy he wants. Kyle has plays designed to spring one primary WR, but he doesn't have one read plays. RG3 is expected to read the defense and find the open guy.


RG3 ran the ball exactly SIX TIMES against the Cowboys. One I believe was a keeper on a zone option, but the others were bailouts from pressure or first down runs. That's just a part of his game and will be for most of his career, his ability to scramble and beat outside contain. But the runs are less of the open field variety and more just to pick up the first down heading towards the sideline.
Yes RG3's innate 'run threat' forces defenders in coverage to adjust whenever he moves, but his athleticism isn't inflating his passing stats.

When Dallas got beat deep by Robinson in the 2nd quarter, they rolled their safeties back. Most NFL QBs would then begin to work the middle of the field on passing downs. That's what Grif did. I'd be curious to see what throws you saw that were 'rookie throws' against underneath coverage??

That's why Robert threw to 8 different WRs against Dallas, with none catching the ball more than 5 times. That's why his 4 TD passes went to FOUR different WRs. That's why his leading WR wasn't his TE, usually the easiest read for most QBs because he's covered by a slower defender.

You say Robert made throws he should be making..poor decision making. If you have Grif's arm strength and release, what's a good throw and read for him isn't necessarily the same for a QB who doesn't have his arm talent.

If you're going to list screen passes and balls thrown on rollouts as examples of atypical QB play, IMO you have to chart them for RGIII if you're going to suggest he's running an inordinate amount of these said plays. Grif didn't throw 10 one yard screens against Dallas that went for 20. He beat Dallas through the air, not with low risk pass attempts.

No one's knocking Luck for having Reggie Wayne to throw the football to, the fact is Robert doesn't have that kind of go-to WR, until Garcon came back healthy against Dallas.
Wayne still leads the NFL in catches, he's still the most targeted WR in the league. Having that kind of player helps a young QB out tremendously. If you took Wayne off the Colts, I don't know if Luck could manufacture that same production with his other WRs and TEs.

Robert's biggest strength as QB IMO is his decision making. It's what makes him elite. A simplified scheme and playbook don't let most rookies only throw 4 INTs and 16 TDs. Scheme alone isn't why Grif has completed over 67% of his passes all season.

What Robert does benefit from IMO is a brilliant playcaller and offensive strategist in Kyle Shanahan. Kyle's gameplan is tailored per the opponent every week, and most times all Robert has to do is execute the offense and make the right read(easier said than done..lol). That's why it's difficult for opponents to identify tendencies from previous Skins games.

I wish someone would make the case in more specifics what it is exactly Luck is doing as a rookie that leads his advocates to believe he's the better rookie QB. One thing I've noticed about Luck is if he's given time, he's going to find an open WR. He can read a defense. But otherwise I don't see gaping differences in his level of play and Robert's.

EDIT:

Pure dropback passer is a cliche.
Aaron Rodgers btw is the one player who most reminds many SKins fans of RGIII.
Mobility is not a negative for an NFL QB, but if it's the foundation of your overall a game then it's a limiting factor for long term success IMO.

Rodgers and Roethlisberger have 3 SBs combined because of their 'mobility'.
Let's not lose perspective.

Even Luck isn't a pure dropback QB in the sense that he has options once the pocket breaks down besides dumping off the football or taking the sack.

The pure dropback guys in the NFL aren't mobile and can't outrun anybody. That doesn't make them better QBs. It's just who they are.
It would be like criticizing Wes Welker because he lacks 4.3 speed.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

I don't see gaping differences in his level of play and Robert's.

There aren't. The last couple pages of this thread were basically reactions to statements along the lines of "Luck isn't even close to being on RGIII's level," which is absurd. They are very close, and this is one of the closest rookie of the year races I can remember.

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

IMO there's an assumption in this analysis that RG3's production is inflated by screen plays, his running ability and one read passing plays.

When you see a so called 'one read' passing play run by the Skins, look and see how many WRs are out on the pattern and see how much if at all RG3 shifts/scrambles to find the guy he wants. Kyle has plays designed to spring one primary WR, but he doesn't have one read plays. RG3 is expected to read the defense and find the open guy.


RG3 ran the ball exactly SIX TIMES against the Cowboys. One I believe was a keeper on a zone option, but the others were bailouts from pressure or first down runs. That's just a part of his game and will be for most of his career, his ability to scramble and beat outside contain. But the runs are less of the open field variety and more just to pick up the first down heading towards the sideline.
Yes RG3's innate 'run threat' forces defenders in coverage to adjust whenever he moves, but his athleticism isn't inflating his passing stats.

When Dallas got beat deep by Robinson in the 2nd quarter, they rolled their safeties back. Most NFL QBs would then begin to work the middle of the field on passing downs. That's what Grif did. I'd be curious to see what throws you saw that were 'rookie throws' against underneath coverage??

That's why Robert threw to 8 different WRs against Dallas, with none catching the ball more than 5 times. That's why his 4 TD passes went to FOUR different WRs. That's why his leading WR wasn't his TE, usually the easiest read for most QBs because he's covered by a slower defender.

You say Robert made throws he should be making..poor decision making. If you have Grif's arm strength and release, what's a good throw and read for him isn't necessarily the same for a QB who doesn't have his arm talent.

If you're going to list screen passes and balls thrown on rollouts as examples of atypical QB play, IMO you have to chart them for RGIII if you're going to suggest he's running an inordinate amount of these said plays. Grif didn't throw 10 one yard screens against Dallas that went for 20. He beat Dallas through the air, not with low risk pass attempts.

No one's knocking Luck for having Reggie Wayne to throw the football to, the fact is Robert doesn't have that kind of go-to WR, until Garcon came back healthy against Dallas.
Wayne still leads the NFL in catches, he's still the most targeted WR in the league. Having that kind of player helps a young QB out tremendously. If you took Wayne off the Colts, I don't know if Luck could manufacture that same production with his other WRs and TEs.

Robert's biggest strength as QB IMO is his decision making. It's what makes him elite. A simplified scheme and playbook don't let most rookies only throw 4 INTs and 16 TDs. Scheme alone isn't why Grif has completed over 67% of his passes all season.

What Robert does benefit from IMO is a brilliant playcaller and offensive strategist in Kyle Shanahan. Kyle's gameplan is tailored per the opponent every week, and most times all Robert has to do is execute the offense and make the right read(easier said than done..lol). That's why it's difficult for opponents to identify tendencies from previous Skins games.

I wish someone would make the case in more specifics what it is exactly Luck is doing as a rookie that leads his advocates to believe he's the better rookie QB. One thing I've noticed about Luck is if he's given time, he's going to find an open WR. He can read a defense. But otherwise I don't see gaping differences in his level of play and Robert's.

EDIT:

Pure dropback passer is a cliche.
Aaron Rodgers btw is the one player who most reminds many SKins fans of RGIII.
Mobility is not a negative for an NFL QB, but if it's the foundation of your overall a game then it's a limiting factor for long term success IMO.

Rodgers and Roethlisberger have 3 SBs combined because of their 'mobility'.
Let's not lose perspective.

Even Luck isn't a pure dropback QB in the sense that he has options once the pocket breaks down besides dumping off the football or taking the sack.

The pure dropback guys in the NFL aren't mobile and can't outrun anybody. That doesn't make them better QBs. It's just who they are.
It would be like criticizing Wes Welker because he lacks 4.3 speed.

All fair points. But I think comparing progression reading in the NFL, ie (presnap read of the rush, adjustment of protections, identifying the mike, identifying presnap mismatches, then snapping the ball, reading the defense, then identifying which routes are open based on the defense and going 1,2,3 progression based on the routes vs the coverage) vs a read option play where you read the safety and if he cheats up, PA pass down the seam to your WR or if he doesn't, keep it and run is totally different in terms of complexity. A lot less information is being processed at once.

And you can't compare Rodgers to Griff. Griff is running a lot of spread option, Rodgers runs a WCO and scrambles when no one is open. It's different.

Now to be fair, Griffin's incredible athleticism is why he can run that system. So it shouldn't be used against him, but at the same time, we need to understand that many successful plays in this system will work this year, but it won't next year.

So he's going to have to develop to continue his incredible play. And I've been saying all along that I fully expect him to develop bc he's the real deal. All I'm pointing out is, we have to look beyond the numbers to truly analyze quarterbacks.

Mark Sanchez had a 94 qb rating vs the Patriots. But he sucked and anyone who watched the game would tell you that. You gotta look beyond the numbers sometimes.

Having said all that, it would not upset me one bit if RGIII wins OROTY. If he continues to play like this, and he outperforms Luck then sure, he deserves it.

All I'm saying is, let's look deeper before we mold his bust in Canton. Let's all take a deep breathe, and remember that this is a game of adjustments. Year 2 will tell us a lot about RGIII.

[FUNBUNCHER]

I think people see that RG3 ran several read option plays early in the season and think that's the cornerstone of the Skins offense.
IMO Kyle wants to make defenses think early on Grif is a threat to run at the snap, but the number of designed read/runs have decreased dramatically since the Saints/Rams/Cincy games.

Luck doesn't run any read option plays, but it's not like a third to a half of Griffin's offensive snaps are option runs.

They do still use that read-option ball fake, but rarely is Grif keeping it to run.

IMO the Skins offense as of late is about 15% of the Baylor playbook and 85% Kyle and Mike's WCO/ZBS and the offense being run in Houston.

With that said, if the SKins hope to have any chance to push for a wildcard, RG3 is going to have to run. A lot. They're going to have to outscore opponents, and that means Grif is going to need the find the endzone at times as a runner.

[bigbluedefense]

Let's be clear, I don't think any of us are saying RGIII isn't good. He's amazing. We're just pointing out that he is in a great situation right now and is being developed perfectly by the coaching staff and how they incorporate his skills into a modified scheme.

The next chapter for RGIII will be his development in Shanny's traditional sets in the offseason. I think he's gonna be great. We're witnessing arguably the best 1,2 qb punch to ever come out of the draft.

[descendency]

I'm in no way an expert, but I think this is a dead heat at this point.

Luck and Griffin both are on pathetic teams and both are putting up numbers. Luck will probably win because his team will be in playoff contention. If RG3 wants to win, he needs to beat the Giants in their next match and put his team into playoff contention again.

It shouldn't come down to that, but that's what it feels like the gap is.

[J-Mike88]

Originally Posted by descendency

I'm in no way an expert, but I think this is a dead heat at this point.

Luck and Griffin both are on pathetic teams and both are putting up numbers. Luck will probably win because his team will be in playoff contention. If RG3 wants to win, he needs to beat the Giants in their next match and put his team into playoff contention again.

It shouldn't come down to that, but that's what it feels like the gap is.

Luck has a 1/1 TD/Int ratio, which is below Phil Rivers and Brandon Weeden.
Griffin has a 4/1 Int ratio, which is spectacular, and he also has almost 700 yards rushing the ball, and 6 TD runs.

This, at the moment, is Griffin by 4 lengths, no wire-to-wire finish here.

[SeanTaylorRIP]

Lets remember the question is who is the OROTY not who is more developed, who does more, or who you think is better in your opinion. I would be thoroughly shocked if the Skins finish at least 7-9 and RGIII doesn't win based on the media and coaches opinion of him.

[Ness]

Andrew Luck's team is winning, which is a huge bonus. But playing in the AFC South is different than playing in the NFC East. I should say playing in the AFC overall is different than the NFC, which seems a lot tougher. I think Griffin III at this point is more deserving. The team is only 5-6, but I think they've had a tougher road and Griffin III is still putting up fabulous numbers.

[Mufasa]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I think it's Griffin easily. They have both played very well, no real advantage there. Luck's team has a better record, but only slightly. Griffin has much better stats, and that's what puts him at the top. Griffin has 3100 total yards and 22 total TDs to go with just 6 total turnovers. Luck has 3100 total yards and 17 TDs to go with 17 turnovers. Clear advantage to Griffin.

Actual production should be the most important factor for a rookie of the year award, and Griffin unquestionably beats Luck there.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

Luck has a 1/1 TD/Int ratio, which is below Phil Rivers and Brandon Weeden.
Griffin has a 4/1 Int ratio, which is spectacular, and he also has almost 700 yards rushing the ball, and 6 TD runs.

This, at the moment, is Griffin by 4 lengths, no wire-to-wire finish here.

sweet, more stats from someone who doesn't watch football. love when the box score experts weigh in.

Originally Posted by SeanTaylorRIP

or who you think is better in your opinion

that's sort of exactly what it is.

Originally Posted by Ness

Andrew Luck's team is winning, which is a huge bonus. But playing in the AFC South is different than playing in the NFC East. I should say playing in the AFC overall is different than the NFC, which seems a lot tougher. I think Griffin III at this point is more deserving. The team is only 5-6, but I think they've had a tougher road and Griffin III is still putting up fabulous numbers.

meh, the nfc east is god awful. outside of the jags, who i still might take in a game against philly, there isn't a team in the east that's better than the respective team in the south.

[vidae]

Originally Posted by Rosebud

So we can all agree it's between Luck and Russel Wilson, right? With Martin as a darkhorse.

[SuperPacker]

Originally Posted by vidae

I was just about to say something to this effect.

I haven't watched much football lately, but last time I checked Russell Wilson was pretty useless.

[Jvig43]

Good job getting the joke guys......

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by SuperPacker

I was just about to say something to this effect.

I haven't watched much football lately, but last time I checked Russell Wilson was pretty useless.

You're pretty wrong about that. Unless you just mean you only paid attention during the first month of the season. He's had a very strong midseason, and the Seahawks offense is clicking with him under center.

[SuperPacker]

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

You're pretty wrong about that. Unless you just mean you only paid attention during the first month of the season. He's had a very strong midseason, and the Seahawks offense is clicking with him under center.

That's exactly what I mean. I've been out of touch with everything football for quite a while now.

[SolidGold]

It will be interesting to see if Griffin regresses drastically like Newton has in year 2. Game film and defensive preparation will be much better for the Redskins offense next season.

[vidae]

Originally Posted by Jvig43

Good job getting the joke guys......

Oh I got it, I just found that the other day and I've been wanting to use it since. This seemed like a good opportunity!