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Old 12-04-2012, 04:54 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by xjxdarren View Post
Committing turnovers, be it int or fumble, doesn't erase offense contributions.
Ok?

So doesn't that argument help Luck, not RGIII?
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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Committing turnovers, be it int or fumble, doesn't erase offense contributions.

Luck's offense philosophy as prescribed by Arians dictates he often has to play a hand out even when holding 7&8 of spade, whereas Griffin simply doesn't unless he gets dealt QJ to say the least
Ok, I get it. And I agree with you on this. I was just confused bc earlier you gave the impression that you were discrediting Luck.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Ok?

So doesn't that argument help Luck, not RGIII?
Haven't you been reading my posts these couple pages?! Jesus Christ
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:56 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Luck has 8 fumbles lost and 17 INTs.
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...L/LuckAn00.htm
17 + 8 = 25.

You can believe the SKins would still be a 6 win team if RGIII had 25 total turnovers after 12 games.

I don't.

http://www.nfl.com/player/andrewluck/2533031/profile

16+5=21

Either way you're reaching.

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Old 12-04-2012, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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I haven't seen enough of Luck's games, but I've seen more throws from him that are impressive than I've seen from RG3.

Alfred Morris is tied for third in rushing right now. Indianapolis' top three rushers barely break 1000 yards. Throwing with a dominant run game is cake compared to throwing without one.

It's all about play action for RG3. In the last three games, 2/3 of his yards and TDs come off of play action. The play calling is pretty much even for play action passes and non-PA...

But it's not the number of play action plays it's the production. In the same three game span: 15.9 yards from PA pass and only 6.34 yards off normal drop back passes.

This somewhat supports my belief that he throws a lot of quick screens and short passes for normal drop backs.

RG3 is a smart QB, and the combination of play calling and a very good run game would help any QB avoid throwing interceptions. Then we have to factor in his rushing ability and it just seems that it's incredibly hard to put him in a difficult situation.


Nobody is going to make the case that Indianapolis' running game is the key to their offense but I would for Washington.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't know who to vote for between Luck and RG3. They are both so good and so different. The Giants had no answer for RG3 last night.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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I think if you ask the players who they'd rather face it would easily be Luck. And I also think folks here are really underestimating the decisions he has to make in a short time period. He has to decide whether to hand it off, keep it or throw depending on what the DE's do. And once he does decide to throw he has A .35 second release and cannon arm. He makes it look easy but it's not. Now the fact that he is so dangerous in every aspect of the game it turns into a pick your poison type situation and we have the D in check the entire game. One thing I take into consideration is that I know RG3 could run Lucks O but I'm not so sure Luck cld run RG3's. I don't like how you guys are knocking RG3 for playing in the offense he's playing in. Just like Luck can't help who the Colts have beat, RG3 can't help it that he's in the O he's in. All he can do is execute it and he's done that better than Luck has his. You can have all the gunslinger crap. i'll take the ultimate weapon.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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What? How do you know he can run Luck's O? He can't run a conventional offense yet which is why he's running so much spread option to begin with, and you think he can run Luck's offense that put's a lot of checks and protection calls on the qb?

Stop being such a blatant homer.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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This whole thread has been a gigantic waste of time. The obvious choice for OROY is Doug Martin, ya jackwagons.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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No the reason he's being asked to run the offense he's in is because it's ridiculously effective and fits his strengths to a T. He doesn't do it cause he can't make all the throws or go through progressions, it's to amplify his strengths. When you have a guy as fast a AP playing the QB position you use that in your offense. He's a threat to take it to the house with his legs or arm and D's have to respect that and in turn it opens up gigantic holes and can totally negate a great passrush. The strategy is simply genius. Holistically speaking it's simple but making it work at the NFL level takes a special talent.

And how do I know he cld run Lucks offense? Really? He's as smart as Luck, has a quicker release, stronger arm, better pocket presense. Why do you think he'd have trouble running Lucks O?



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Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
I don't think Wilson is even in the discussion for the award yet. In terms of where the hype is right now its all RG3 (at least going into this week not considering the 1:00 games). I think Luck is going to be the run away winner by the end of the year unless the Redskins make the playoffs. The Redskins are basically fighting with the Seahawks, Vikings, Bucs, Cowboys and Rams for the final wildcard spot (Chicago and Green Bay have the first one locked up as far as I'm concerned). Right now the Seahawks have the best record of that group (7-5), followed by the Bucs (6-5), Vikings (6-6), Rams (5-6-1) and then the Redskins and Cowboys (5-6). I posted this in the Week 13 thread but figured I'd toss it in here too.

There is no "the Colts have to make the playoffs for Luck to win" any more. They are 8-4 and going to the playoffs. There are only two teams who could even realistically take a wildcard spot from them (Bengals and Steelers, both 6-5 right now and if either loses today it becomes an even greater guarantee that the Colts make the playoffs) and only one of them will realistically be able to finish ahead of the Colts considering that the Bengals and Steelers play eachother in Week 16. The Colts will inevitably get a wildcard spot and likely the winner of the Steelers/Bengals game in Week 16 will get the other wildcard spot.

Luck is also going to break Peyton Mannings record for most yards in a season by a rookie in Week 14 as long as he passes for more than something like 130 yards and will in all likelihood finish the season closer to 5000 yards than 4000.

RG3 is flashy, but their teams aren't that far apart in terms of talent (you could probably argue in favour of either roster if you wanted to), and Luck is asked to do a lot more than RG3. Throw in the feel good story about playing for your coach who is battling cancer and I think even the media will flip over to Luck's side by the end of the year for the award.

edit. fixed some stuff.
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What? How do you know he can run Luck's O? He can't run a conventional offense yet which is why he's running so much spread option to begin with, and you think he can run Luck's offense that put's a lot of checks and protection calls on the qb?

Stop being such a blatant homer.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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On the real though, people need to chill the **** out about rookies. Especially this guy above me. You literally say in this post that Luck is worse at everything than RG3.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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No the reason he's being asked to run the offense he's in is because it's ridiculously effective and fits his strengths to a T. He doesn't do it cause he can't make all the throws or go through progressions, it's to amplify his strengths. When you have a guy as fast a AP playing the QB position you use that in your offense. He's a threat to take it to the house with his legs or arm and D's have to respect that and in turn it opens up gigantic holes and can totally negate a great passrush. The strategy is simply genius. Holistically speaking it's simple but making it work at the NFL level takes a special talent.

And how do I know he cld run Lucks offense? Really? He's as smart as Luck, has a quicker release, stronger arm, better pocket presense. Why do you think he'd have trouble running Lucks O?
I was tipping towards liking RGIII for rookie of the year, but then you started posting again.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Luck has 8 fumbles lost and 17 INTs.
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...L/LuckAn00.htm
17 + 8 = 25.

You can believe the SKins would still be a 6 win team if RGIII had 25 total turnovers after 12 games.

I don't.
Well congratulations, you and abaddon can go jerk eachother off while reading stats to determine who is the better QB, while the rest of us will actually watch the position being played and let you know who is doing more with less.

Or wait, it must be because Luck has the defense that holds teams to a huge marginal .5 difference per game than the Redskins do, he basically just has them win games for him. I'm tapping out of this thread now. Its Luck, it will be luck and RG3 will be second no matter how much blatant homerism goes on in here.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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If we're talking OROY you have to go with Griffin he has the stats and his team has improved tremendously with him as their starter. They may or may not make the playoffs but its Griffin's award to lose.

If we are talking about who will be better going forward? My money is on Luck no doubt... I want to see how RGIII does outside of a option offense or if he can really be that QB who can change the game bringing the option back from the dead... but I doubt it. He is going to need to start becoming less athlete and more field general if he wants to exceed Luck in the NFL.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:50 PM    (permalink
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Well congratulations, you and abaddon can go jerk eachother off while reading stats to determine who is the better QB, while the rest of us will actually watch the position being played and let you know who is doing more with less.

Or wait, it must be because Luck has the defense that holds teams to a huge marginal .5 difference per game than the Redskins do, he basically just has them win games for him. I'm tapping out of this thread now. Its Luck, it will be luck and RG3 will be second no matter how much blatant homerism goes on in here.
And I get banned?

The award is Offensive Rookie Of the Year not QB Rookie of the year. Rg3 is the best offensive rookie. Luck is also very good but he's been more Tony Romo than Peyton Manning so I don't get why people are acting like this is a no brainer in his favor.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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I was tipping towards liking RGIII for rookie of the year, but then you started posting again.
Feelings mutual.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:55 PM    (permalink
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And I get banned?

The award is Offensive Rookie Of the Year not QB Rookie of the year. Rg3 is the best offensive rookie. Luck is also very good but he's been more Tony Romo than Peyton Manning so I don't get why people are acting like this is a no brainer in his favor.
This a draft board and Andrew Luck is practically the messiah.

RGIII if the season ended today would win it. The stats are in his favor. None, or maybe a very select few, of the voters for OROY look at such variables like "Luck has more responsibilities," "Luck does well in a much more complex offense," "Luck makes way more analytical decisions and reads." The voters look at wins and stats. The wins are much too close to make a difference and at this point RGIII has much better stats.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:59 PM    (permalink
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Wins are not even close. There is a huge difference between 8-4 and 6-6.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:02 PM    (permalink
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If we're talking OROY you have to go with Griffin he has the stats and his team has improved tremendously with him as their starter.
THIS ^^^ is correct, at this point.
Hard to argue with that, with a straight face.

Funny thing here, or ironic, is compare Russell Wilson's stats, wins, late game performance, to that of Sam Bradford, who won the damn award a couple years ago.
And Wilson is not gonna sniff a 1st or 2nd place vote this year, unless homer Seattle gets a vote.

Wilson has been rock solid the past almost-2 months. Making a lot of teams pissed off they didn't draft him.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:02 PM    (permalink
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On the real though, people need to chill the **** out about rookies. Especially this guy above me. You literally say in this post that Luck is worse at everything than RG3.
What does he have physically, mechanically, intangibally, mentally than RG3?

Lucks an incredible prospect too but RG3 is off the charts. It's like comparing 1a to 1b. They're both awesome.

Just because someone compliments RG3 does not mean it's a knock to Luck.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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Wins are not even close. There is a huge difference between 8-4 and 6-6.
The difference is two games.

Both are making a playoff push.

Luck has the better chance at the playoffs as far as I am concerned it doesn't mean much.

It's too much of a stretch to directly compare Dalton's situations to Luck's but it does provide evidence that wins are not the trump card in the OROY discussion stats are.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:12 PM    (permalink
jsagan77
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Originally Posted by MetSox17 View Post
Wins are not even close. There is a huge difference between 8-4 and 6-6.
Rg3 has made wine out of water this season. The skins have more injuries, 18m less in cap space, historically bad secondary and pass rush, and are still recovering from the Ceratto years. A lot of people point to who walked onto the better team and it was a huge unknown because of how much turnover the Colts had (no this colts team was not the worst in the NFL last year--they jettisoned that staff and most of the roster.).
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:17 PM    (permalink
Malaka
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Rg3 has made wine out of water this season. The skins have more injuries, 18m less in cap space, historically bad secondary and pass rush, and are still recovering from the Ceratto years. A lot of people point to who walked onto the better team and it was a huge unknown because of how much turnover the Colts had (no this colts team was not the worst in the NFL last year--they jettisoned that staff and most of the roster.).
Look let's not be completely blind to what Luck has done either.

Luck made a team that was just completely atrocious to watch last year into a playoff team. That is extremely impressive. He is turning water into wine just as much as RGIII is. His team drafted extremely well, but all in all the Colts' roster is not notably different than it was last year.

My case for RG3 rests on the fact that OROY is not the "What Player Do I Want Moving Forward the Most Award?" its an award given to the player who has been the most productive with his team. That would be RG3. Who do I want going forward? Andrew Luck he has impressed me much more than Bobert. I wouldn't worry too much, Luck will end up having his own rewards I assure you.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:47 PM    (permalink
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RGIII is a cross between Jesus Christ and Peyton Manning.
And that's just from this page. You understand that you're using so much hyperbole its literally impossible to have a serious discussion with you?
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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And that's just from this page. You understand that you're using so much hyperbole its literally impossible to have a serious discussion with you?
It's impossible to have a serious discussion with you because you don't even attempt to throw out any facts. Most of the reason is because everything I've said is the truth and that's hard to argue with. The rest probably has to do with something else but meh.

And the whole jesus/manning thing. That's just ridiculous. Neither of those guys are black, have dreads, can run a 4.4, or have the release of RG3.

Last edited by jsagan77 : 12-04-2012 at 09:34 PM.
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