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Old 12-05-2012, 05:00 AM    (permalink
Razor
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Don't get me started about that play. I was about to have a heart attack when he fumbled the ball and Morgan ran it in for a TD, and Gruden then said something like: "The magic of RGIII!"... I mean, really?! WTF? The guy just fumbled, he got lucky that the Giants didn't get the ball. Both RGIII and Luck are so overhyped right now. I like both, but they're going to come down to earth next year the same way that Newton did this year.
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
I think if you ask the players who they'd rather face it would easily be Luck. And I also think folks here are really underestimating the decisions he has to make in a short time period. He has to decide whether to hand it off, keep it or throw depending on what the DE's do.
The decision-making required to run read option isnít earth-shattering. Thereís nothing to underestimate. There are college quarterbacks that can execute the same read option concepts that RGIII does. If the defensive end cheats to the runner, RGIII keeps it. If the defensive end freezes at the exchange, RGIII hands it off. On their packaged calls, if cornerbacks are sitting in off-coverage, RGIII gets it to the perimeter quick and lets his athletes work in space.

Nothing about that is complex. Itís a couple clear, this-or-that reads. Yes, he needs to be decisive in those situations to capitalize on defensive conflict, but decisiveness ≠ complicated decision-making.

(And before someone jumps on the college quarterback comment, itís just speaking in terms of executing the same kind of reads. RGIIIís skill set separates him from them. Heís special because heís capable of so much more.)

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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Now the fact that he is so dangerous in every aspect of the game it turns into a pick your poison type situation and we have the D in check the entire game. One thing I take into consideration is that I know RG3 could run Lucks O but I'm not so sure Luck cld run RG3's.
This is conjecture. We donít know that.

The Colts donít have a running game to keep their offense on-schedule. When the Colts need to move the ball, itís square on Andrew Luckís shoulders. If thereís been a weakness of RGIIIís this season, itís been third-and-long. When heís been forced to operate within the confines of NFL structure, heís struggled more. Itís not a knock. Most quarterbacks do.

But, as a rookie, Iíve watched Luck shred defenses on third-and-long. Against the Dolphins, the top third-down defense in the NFL at the time, he converted distances of twelve, fourteen, nine, twenty, ten, sixteen, and eleven. Against the Bills, he converted distances of eleven, eleven, eight, seventeen, eight, ten, and scrambled for fourteen to convert another 3rd & 8. I didnít see the game against the Lions, but saw that he threw a touchdown on 3rd & 11 in the red zone. Thatís being clinical in third-and-long.

As for the inverse, I am confident Luck would shine in a Shanahan offense. His athleticism fits with a lot of Shanahanís concepts. It shouldnít feature the run option element much, but Shanahan loves stretching defenses using athleticism at the quarterback position. Iím confident there would be a lot of bootlegs, rollouts, and moving the pocket. Just like I am confident RGIII would still have flashes of pure brilliance in Indianapolisí offense. But, I think itís fair to speculate that RGIIIís inexperience with intermediate concepts would suggest he doesnít replicate his numbers from D.C. in Indianapolis.

As for the ďultimate weaponĒ talk, RGIII isnít revolutionizing the quarterback position. If he becomes one of the all-time greats, it will be because he evolved into a phenomenal passer. Not because his 40-time is 4.3 and stuff. Because as much as an athlete like RGIII keeps defensive coordinators awake at night, cerebral drop-back passers like Luck give them nightmares. You might stress coverage discipline, gap integrities, and cage pursuit against someone like RGIII. But with someone like Luck, calling the game is much different. You have to design creative blitz packages and rotate through the rolodex of shells. Weave front seven pressure with back seven coverage. Give false pre-snap reads. You want to confuse them without tipping too much. When are the best disguises implemented within the game? Saved for the stretch? Or shown at the start? Knowing that the potential exists for them to be obsolete later in the game. Itís a constant struggle.

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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
And how do I know he cld run Lucks offense? Really? He's as smart as Luck, has a quicker release, stronger arm, better pocket presense. Why do you think he'd have trouble running Lucks O?
Two things:

1.) RGIII is a super smart kid, but Luck has heightened football awareness at this point. And itís a direct function of Luckís experience within a pro passing skeleton. Luckís NFL-esque reps started at Stanford. Art Brilesí scheme, while successful at the collegiate level, is more all-or-nothing. It spreads defenses out, strikes them with quick-hitters in space, sticks with it until safeties get impatient, and then swings for the home run. Itís lighter on intermediate concepts and stick throws. Itís not RGIIIís fault. Heís just behind Luckís curve right now in that department. And itís a big part of NFL offenses.

2.) This is a discussion of proactive vs. reactive pocket presence. I would argue that Luck has better pocket presence, but RGIIIís gifts enable him to escape pressure even if he identifies it later.

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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
That is not a FACT.... It's been said here and people cherry picked a couple of plays but no one knows anything about the nuances that these guys must accomplish in their respective offenses. None of you sit in a film room with these guys or have their playbook or have any idea what is asked of them on each play. You guys assume and last I checked assumptions are not FACTS. Statistics are facts.. Metrics are facts... What context you'd like to add to them are in FACT--SUBJECTIVE...
Facts come with context. And not all facts illuminate the whole picture.

Fact 1: RGIII has a better completion percentage than Andrew Luck.
Fact 2: No quarterback in the NFL throws more passes behind the line of scrimmage than RGIII.

Fact 2 adds context to Fact 1. Most facts have subjective spin to them, too. Statistics can be deceiving. Football isnít baseball. It canít be simplified to just a few variables and quantified in a neat formula and used as the decider in debates. Thereís too much going on.

As for the second claim, no, I havenít been in the meeting room with either Luck or RGIII. But Iíve been around football long enough to recognize patterns and piece together consistent themes to build the rough framework of an offensive scheme. And, on that front, Luckís scheme is more challenging for a rookie quarterback. More difficult throws, more intricate progressions, more responsibilities as a game manager, etc.

Thatís one of his most remarkable qualities. How he manages the game. I hate the game-manager label not because itís demeaning to lesser quarterbacks, but because managing the game is a trait of elite quarterbacking. As a rookie, Andrew Luck has been given great freedom at the line and input on overall offensive direction. When to speed things up, when to slow things down, what the defense is doing to him, what he needs to do in response, etc.

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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
In this race objectivity reigns supreme. Since RG3 doesn't throw a million times a game you have to look at who has the better ratio's, percentages, averages, etc.
The more quarterbacks throw, the harder it gets. So we canít just extrapolate RGIIIís averages and percentages and assume the numbers were get would be an accurate representation.

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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
You guys are grasping at contextual evidence because there's no stat you can represent to validate your OPINIONS.
Andrew Luck is the first quarterback taken number one overall to lead his team to at least eight wins in the Super Bowl era. Heís also on-pace to eclipse the rookie passing record. And heís manufactured five game-winning drives this season. Those stats, and all of the other things Iíve seen, give me reason to believe heís the OROTY.

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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Not to get side tracked but I went and watched every Luck completion I could find on Youtube and I'm still not seeing what you guys are. He's locking onto his primary's, waiting for plays to develop (not going through progressions), he's not calling audibles or adjusting too many protections at the LOS, he's hitting a lot of high percentage passes, and his receivers have made a TON of great plays. Luck looks amazing, and he's gonna be good, but everything that has been argued in his favor is being way overblown....
Thereís two passes that have been plastered on ESPN from the Lions game alone. Down five with :52 left at his own 34 on 3rd & 1 and he drops a dime between three Detroit defenders. Then with less than :20 left and no timeouts, he delivers a laser in the back of the endzone thatís dropped. Even the eventual game-winner. The Colts called back-to-back trip receiver sets. Both times the trip set streaked to the endzone. If the inside window is there, itís a touchdown, but that would take an error in defender presence given that situation. Then, on the final call, Indianapolis added the wrinkle of a crossing route. So the streaks became clear-outs (with LaVon Brazill doing an excellent job of pushing his route to the sideline to widen the running lane) and the dump-off did the job. I donít know who made the call, but it was still good awareness on Luckís part.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Not to get side tracked but I went and watched every Luck completion I could find on Youtube and I'm still not seeing what you guys are. He's locking onto his primary's, waiting for plays to develop (not going through progressions), he's not calling audibles or adjusting too many protections at the LOS, he's hitting a lot of high percentage passes, and his receivers have made a TON of great plays. Luck looks amazing, and he's gonna be good, but everything that has been argued in his favor is being way overblown....
jsagan77--

Before posting again, I would suggest you step back for a second, re-read this thread and your posts and ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish here. Both Luck and RG3 are having dominant rookie seasons. Both have exceeded expectations. Depending on what factors you choose to highlight, you can find good arguments for RG3 or Luck. This was debated on an ESPN show yesterday and both Hasselbeck and the other guest commentator favored Luck but admitted it was close.

From reading your posts, your mind is made up and your single focus appears to be browbeating people into agreeing with you that RG3 is clearly the best rookie of the year. People give long posts explaining why they think Luck is having an amazing season and offer different interpretations. You seem to ignore what they say and several times in this thread I have seen you call people clueless or claim they are effectively ignorant by not watching the games.

Everyone who comes to these forums watches a lot of football and is very knowledgeable about football. I am relatively ignorant about football compared to most posters. However, I am open-minded and willing to hear what everyone has to say. You will get a lot more mileage by becoming more open-minded. I don't think you realize how your posts can turn people off as you appear to have a clear agenda and no willingness to acknowledge the validity of what anyone else says.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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I'm on my phone so I can't respond to everything now but this argument between Pro and College spread doesn't hold water anymore. Most teams are utilizing shotgun, spread type offenses in the NFL. The development and prevalence of the slot reciever and TE's becoming as effective as #1 recievers is no coincidemce and most of the concepts used have been developed from the college game. It's all about mismatches and clearing defenders out, completing high percentage passes and letting recievers work in space to get YAC. All the top passing teams spread the D out and Indy is no different. Arians uses a lot of 4 WR sets, always has. And the Read option at the NFL level is much more difficult than college. The speed of the game makes it ridiculously hard. Why do you think teams can't run it effectively? And the whole 'threw more passes behind the line' thing is by design. He also has the most TD passes of 25 yards or more but we wouldn't want to bring that up. It's all about #1 gaining confidence, #2 sucking up the D so you can hit them over the top.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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I really disagre with your last paragraph. Most people that post on these forums watch red zone or their fav team every week or whats oncable. Most have no clue. They try tp use a lot of jargon and hyperbole to make their points but in most cases they're just making stuff up to sound smart or act like they have some intimate knowledge of certain situations and thay don't. Thid board used to have some top notch posters but has taken a nosedive in rescent years. This place is the extreme skins of the draft forum world. A lot of quantity but very little quality.


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Originally Posted by Cardinal96 View Post
jsagan77--

Before posting again, I would suggest you step back for a second, re-read this thread and your posts and ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish here. Both Luck and RG3 are having dominant rookie seasons. Both have exceeded expectations. Depending on what factors you choose to highlight, you can find good arguments for RG3 or Luck. This was debated on an ESPN show yesterday and both Hasselbeck and the other guest commentator favored Luck but admitted it was close.

From reading your posts, your mind is made up and your single focus appears to be browbeating people into agreeing with you that RG3 is clearly the best rookie of the year. People give long posts explaining why they think Luck is having an amazing season and offer different interpretations. You seem to ignore what they say and several times in this thread I have seen you call people clueless or claim they are effectively ignorant by not watching the games.

Everyone who comes to these forums watches a lot of football and is very knowledgeable about football. I am relatively ignorant about football compared to most posters. However, I am open-minded and willing to hear what everyone has to say. You will get a lot more mileage by becoming more open-minded. I don't think you realize how your posts can turn people off as you appear to have a clear agenda and no willingness to acknowledge the validity of what anyone else says.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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I really disagre with your last paragraph. Most people that post on these forums watch red zone or their fav team every week or whats oncable. Most have no clue. They try tp use a lot of jargon and hyperbole to make their points but in most cases they're just making stuff up to sound smart or act like they have some intimate knowledge of certain situations and thay don't. Thid board used to have some top notch posters but has taken a nosedive in rescent years. This place is the extreme skins of the draft forum world. A lot of quantity but very little quality.





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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Not to get side tracked but I went and watched every Luck completion I could find on Youtube ...

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Old 12-05-2012, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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Some of the preseason odds if people are interested:
http://www.profootballaddicts.com/33...e-of-the-year/
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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Cudders where did you get the stat from that RGIII has thrown the most passes behind the LOS?? Just curious.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
I thought that I was missing something from the 7 games of his that I've watched this year. Sorry I'm working on my PhD, have a great job, run my own business, and have a family meaning that i'm so busy that I can't watch every game every week. I'd say I watch about 70% of the games though and one day I'll watch all of them every week.

That's not the point though. The point is that most people claim to have some intricate knowledge of the nuances of Luck and Griff but it's blatantly obvious that most people posting don't, myself included. I didn't pretend to know everything about these players, but I have seen enough of both of them to spot some BSery going on.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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you're more than welcome to go elsewhere at any time. posting just to insult the entire board is highly, um, non-productive. moreso when some users who have disagreed with you have, outside of this thread, demonstrated FAR more actual understanding of the sport than you know.
I like this board as a change up from my normal skins board. Makes me appreciate them more. Also, I'm sticking around just to see if you ever make a relevant post. It's like searching for bigfoot. You hear they exist, there is proof (your strangely high +rep), but you never quite see one.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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more personal attacks? nice.
What exactly is your definition of a personal attack? That was an observation. You've posted no stats, no anlalysis, no nothing, just snide remarks and a lot of opinionated conjecture. I wan't attacking YOU, just your posts. It was just a statement of something I've percieved over the last few years and this thread in particular.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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What exactly is your definition of a personal attack? That was an observation. You've posted no stats, no anlalysis, no nothing, just snide remarks and a lot of opinionated conjecture. I wan't attacking YOU, just your posts. It was just a statement of something I've percieved over the last few years and this thread in particular.
To echo Cardinal96... what are you trying to accomplish in this thread? This whole thread has become a contest between you and the rest of the board, and I'm not sure why, except perhaps that you think the discussion taking place in this thread actually affects who wins the award. I know you're from Washington, but this isn't an election.

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Old 12-05-2012, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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Cudders where did you get the stat from that RGIII has thrown the most passes behind the LOS?? Just curious.

I haven't seen the stat logged anywhere, but I would bet it's true. I remember vividly in the game against the Saints, the first 5-6 passes didn't pass the LOS, and it wasn't checkdowns(to Griffin's credit), it was all designed.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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I'm on my phone so I can't respond to everything now but this argument between Pro and College spread doesn't hold water anymore. Most teams are utilizing shotgun, spread type offenses in the NFL. The development and prevalence of the slot reciever and TE's becoming as effective as #1 recievers is no coincidemce and most of the concepts used have been developed from the college game. It's all about mismatches and clearing defenders out, completing high percentage passes and letting recievers work in space to get YAC. All the top passing teams spread the D out and Indy is no different. Arians uses a lot of 4 WR sets, always has.
Base doesnít dictate concept though. The best offenses run their concepts out of multiple bases. In fact, the Redskins are no different in that regard. And thereís still a difference between standard college spreads and traditional NFL shotgun sets. There are exceptions, but most college spreads are still designed to give their quarterbacks the easiest throws and minimize exposure. Itís how some of these passing factories can plug a new quarterback into the offense without experiencing a drop-off. In the NFL, itís more about isolating certain matchups and manipulating defenses with personnel groupings. That means more meticulous route combinations, more sight adjustments, more progressions, etc. In college, itís not uncommon to limit quarterbacks with half-field reads. While those exist in the NFL, quarterbacks need to have some degree of backside validation.

Right now, Washingtonís passing offense is unique. Just because Bruce Arians works a lot of shotgun into a game doesnít mean it entails all of the same things. New Orleans features a lot of shotgun. But the Saints offense is quite different from the Redskins, too.

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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
And the Read option at the NFL level is much more difficult than college. The speed of the game makes it ridiculously hard. Why do you think teams can't run it effectively?
The first reason is most teams donít have an athlete like RGIII at quarterback. The second reason is franchises donít want their biggest assets getting pounded from week-to-week.

Yes, running read option in the NFL is harder because of the speed of the game. It is, however, much easier than lining up under center and attempting to dissect the amoeba defense of an aggressive coordinator. On a scale of decision-making responsibilities, running the read option ranks low on the list.

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And the whole 'threw more passes behind the line' thing is by design. He also has the most TD passes of 25 yards or more but we wouldn't want to bring that up. It's all about #1 gaining confidence, #2 sucking up the D so you can hit them over the top.
Yeah, itís careful offensive design. And itís smart coaching from the Redskins staff. It highlights what RGIII does best, puts him in a great position to build a confident base for his career, and acts as a stabilizer while he masters more advanced concepts. It also widens windows on some of those explosive gains.

As far as Iím concerned, RGIII is having one of the most impressive rookie seasons Iíve ever seen, so I donít want it to seem like defending Luck is tearing RGIII down. In a normal season, heís the landslide winner. Heís been pure class. Heís re-energized the Redskins and propelled them to postseason contention over two more favored rosters in his division. RGIII isnít a talentless hack that is just tripping into his production. At the moment, heís just unfortunate that his entrance to the NFL coincided with Luckís.

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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Cudders where did you get the stat from that RGIII has thrown the most passes behind the LOS?? Just curious.
It was on ESPN's post-game show for MNF.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Sorry I'm working on my PhD, have a great job, run my own business, and have a family meaning that i'm so busy that I can't watch every game every week. I'd say I watch about 70% of the games though and one day I'll watch all of them every week.
Huh? Why are you all of a sudden talking about your personal life? Every time somebody is on a message board and starts spouting off things that in essence is like a high school student saying "my dick is bigger than your dick", it's really just a cover for an inability to make a coherent argument. I'll bite, so you're saying you have all that going on, yet still somehow find a way to watch ~30 hours of football a week?

Regardless, there are some great football posters on this board. None who are as good as me of course except Cudders. You'd do much better by trying to make counterpoints to their arguments by attempting to logically refute their points. Your condescending self-aggrandizing style really does nothing to further the debate, and just makes you look like a jackass.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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So to sum up this thread;

RG3 is the bestest ever because statzzzzz

Andrew Luck has more responsibilities thrust upon him

But completion %, TD/INT!!!!

Luck has to make more complex reads and more difficult throws

RG3 is faster, stronger, smarter than Luck

RG3 has one of the best run games to lean on which helps him use play action

RG3 is fast

Griffin makes easier reads based on how the scheme is set up

You don't know what you are talking about

Griffin throws one read slants and screens on straight drop backs

You have never watched a snap of football in your life and I have watched them all

Griffin is having a great year but a lot of that is helped by his scheme hiding his flaws

STATZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Griffin has the most amount of throws behind the LOS this year

RG3 is Jesus

In 3rd and long he struggles

You don't know what you're talking about

There's proof. Also RG3 throws an inordinate amount of play action passes which help him

Cannon arm and smartest man in the world

Luck took a historically bad team to being an almost lock for the playoffs

Skins were worse and the Colts got new coaches which means winzzzzzz


Ok, so now that we have gotten past that can't we all just get along???

EDIT: Let me clarify this by saying that I don't think it is ridiculous to believe RG3 should be rookie of the year, however a more clear cut argument, IMO, can be made for Luck
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
I like this board as a change up from my normal skins board. Makes me appreciate them more. Also, I'm sticking around just to see if you ever make a relevant post. It's like searching for bigfoot. You hear they exist, there is proof (your strangely high +rep), but you never quite see one.
So go post there. And, you know, not here.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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I really hate living in DC. Local sports talk radio has moved passed RGIII vs. Luck because "its clear RGIII is vastly superior" and are now on to debating Luck vs. Wilson for "best of the rest."
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i don't think ANYONE has suggested that, in spite of some redskins' fans' belief that anyone who doesn't believe rg3 is literally the greatest qb in nfl history is an idiot who doesn't watch football.
Yeah that's why I don't get all the anger in some of these posts. If you don't think Griffin is the greatest you have either never watched football or are a Redskins hater. Why is it so bad that some people think Luck is more deserving?
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
I thought that I was missing something from the 7 games of his that I've watched this year. Sorry I'm working on my PhD, have a great job, run my own business, and have a family meaning that i'm so busy that I can't watch every game every week. I'd say I watch about 70% of the games though and one day I'll watch all of them every week.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
To echo Cardinal96... what are you trying to accomplish in this thread? This whole thread has become a contest between you and the rest of the board, and I'm not sure why, except perhaps that you think the discussion taking place in this thread actually affects who wins the award. I know you're from Washington, but this isn't an election.
You know I'm from washington? Good to know. Was Honolulu acquired by DC recently?

What I was trying to get out of this thread is some logical views of the OROTY race. All i've gotten are made up stories and people saying stats don't mean anything(unless of course they HELP someone's argument).

RG3 is playing with a MASH unit (like 11 injuries and 2 suspensions) who had 18M less than anyone else to spend in FA (which makes it more impressive imo)

Comp% = RG3
TD:Int= RG3
Passer rating = RG3
YPA = RG3
Rushing yards = RG3
Rushing TD's = RG3
TD passes over 25 yds = RG3

Clutch performances = Tie


Passing yards, attempts, completions and incompletions = Luck
Winning % = Luck (though look at who they've played while Washington had to play the NFCE, NFCS, and AFCN.. 6-6 is more impressive in that context imo)

Both players are fantastic but I don't see how anyone can say Luck is superior to RG3? So many excuses are made as to why RG3 is performing when it's really because he's simply a great player.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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You put up a bunch of numbers like its an apples to apples comparison. They are just simply playing in much different offenses and you can't just lump the numbers directly against one another.

I don't buy that either player has a distinct advantage or disadvantage with the players around them. Probably a wash overall to me.

Its a super close race, but I favor Luck because he carries a larger individual burden in my eyes.

That infographic on the last page or so is all kinds funky stats picked out haha. "Most yard gained on zone reads." Aren't there only like 2 or 3 teams that might run zone read plays?
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
What I was trying to get out of this thread is some logical views of the OROTY race.
No, you're not. You want people to say, "Ah yes, Mr. Sagan, you are totally right about everything. Your PhD program is lucky to have you, because you're so intelligent and insightful."

Quote:
All i've gotten are made up stories and people saying stats don't mean anything(unless of course they HELP someone's argument).
The stats you cite don't help yours, which is hardly even an argument. It's the kind of "argument" you'll find with picketers on street corners.

Quote:
RG3 is playing with a MASH unit (like 11 injuries and 2 suspensions) who had 18M less than anyone else to spend in FA (which makes it more impressive imo)
Oh, boo hoo.

Quote:
Comp% = RG3
TD:Int= RG3
Passer rating = RG3
YPA = RG3
Rushing yards = RG3
Rushing TD's = RG3
TD passes over 25 yds = RG3

Clutch performances = Tie


Passing yards, attempts, completions and incompletions = Luck
Winning % = Luck (though look at who they've played while Washington had to play the NFCE, NFCS, and AFCN.. 6-6 is more impressive in that context imo)

Both players are fantastic but I don't see how anyone can say Luck is superior to RG3? So many excuses are made as to why RG3 is performing when it's really because he's simply a great player.
I'm not going to respond to your stats. Break down their play. You can't get beyond RGIII being a better athlete. You're unable to take the point that RGIII's success is primarily because of the way defenses have to account for his athleticism, while Luck's success is primarily because of how adept he already is at executing a traditional NFL offense. That's neither a knock on Griffin's intelligence nor Luck's athleticism.

I don't understand why you insist on continually coming back exclusively to stats found on their player profiles. If you want to use stats, how can you just ignore what (I think) Cudders posted earlier about how many times Andrew Luck converted 3rd and medium-long plays? If you watch football games, you know how critical that is. Or conversely, the idea that several other posters have supported, that RGIII throws a lot of short throws and a lot of bombs - resulting in a higher passer rating without the throws themselves actually being harder than the passes other quarterbacks attempt. YES! - that is because of his running ability, and that does factor into the race, but it doesn't make him the winner. When you look at their teams side-by-side and Luck is 8-4 with the team which picked no. 1 overall last year, and he doesn't have either a stud running back or a reliable defense, you are talking about what Peyton Manning was doing in Indianapolis for years.

This is the best ROY race in a long time.

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Old 12-05-2012, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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I think both RGIII and Luck are neck and neck (still) for the award. Luck may be ahead right now in football acumen but to say the Skins run the pistol and simplify the offense to cover up Griffin's flaws is just incorrect, IMO. The Skins do it to take advantage of Griffin's skills. He can read defenses and make audibles just fine, maybe not quite Luck's level but the difference isn't as vast as some are making it out to be.

And to throw anther log into the fire:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ffensive-line/

Basically the author is saying that despite one of the poorest Olines in the league Griffin is producing offense for the Skins at an exceptional rate, better ratio than any QB in the league by a wide margin. This isn't the be all and end all argument but it certainly adds perspective.

In my view those who say one or the other is way ahead, are full of it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
No, you're not. You want people to say, "Ah yes, Mr. Sagan, you are totally right about everything. Your PhD program is lucky to have you, because you're so intelligent and insightful."



The stats you cite don't help yours, which is hardly even an argument. It's the kind of "argument" you'll find with picketers on street corners.



Oh, boo hoo.



I'm not going to respond to your stats. Break down their play. You can't get beyond RGIII being a better athlete. You're unable to take the point that RGIII's success is primarily because of the way defenses have to account for his athleticism, while Luck's success is primarily because of how adept he already is at executing a traditional NFL offense. That's neither a knock on Griffin's intelligence nor Luck's athleticism.


Break down their play? I have... have you? RG3 is more efficient with his passing attempts, and uses his legs to move the chains as well. He's very balanced... Luck turns the ball over quite a bit but is very very good but I don't see a glaring difference between what he does from a passing perspective that RG3 doesn't. Can you provide some type of example or video or something that shows what you are talking about?

And what I don't get is why you're using RG3's athleticism against him? You're so caught up on "traditional NFL offense" that you can't respect the fact that RG3 is redefining the game (Much like Walsh did with the WCO).


I don't understand why you insist on continually coming back exclusively to stats found on their player profiles. If you want to use stats, how can you just ignore what (I think) Cudders posted earlier about how many times Andrew Luck converted 3rd and medium-long plays? If you watch football games, you know how critical that is. Or conversely, the idea that several other posters have supported, that RGIII throws a lot of short throws and a lot of bombs - resulting in a higher passer rating without the throws themselves actually being harder than the passes other quarterbacks attempt.

This is also something I have been trying to tell you guys. It's like you watched the first three games of the season and all of a sudden pegged RG3 as a bubble screen passer. They brought him along slowly but since have opened up the play book and they might use a screen once or twice a game. All the rest of his passes are either bombs or intermediate throws. He's also been money on 4th down and "must have" conversions. He'd be MUCH better if not for all the drops (another thing you guys are missing) I'd probably say half of the drops he's had have been for first downs on 3rd down. So while you're telling me to watch them play, I urge you to do the same.

YES! - that is because of his running ability, and that does factor into the race, but it doesn't make him the winner. When you look at their teams side-by-side and Luck is 8-4 with the team which picked no. 1 overall last year, and he doesn't have either a stud running back or a reliable defense, you are talking about what Peyton Manning was doing in Indianapolis for years.

This again is NOT a true statement. This team is NOT the same team as last year. It has something like an 80% turnover, new staff, new defensive scheme, etc. They still have most of their best players, had a full draft, and full lot of cap space to address positions and depth in FA. The Redskins did not have that luxury. Then when you add in all the injuries and lack of money or depth due to shoddy drafting by Ceratto for years (I know--Boo Hoo, but it matters whether you think so or not).

This is the best ROY race in a long time.


Agreed!

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