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Old 12-10-2012, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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Griffin is more elusive for sure but Luck has a clear edge is pocket presence. The guy just naturally works a pocket and steps up. Its not that RG3 is bad, but Luck might be in the elite level there. Its one of his best attributes.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Griff is houdini back there. Again not a nock on luck cause he's good too but RG3 is elusive as hell.
I don't want to turn into the spelling police here, but didn't you say you were working on a PhD? Why do you not see the little red squiggly lines in your post?
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Yeah, people normally act in response to as their being treated...

Look I loved Luck coming out and I still do. I agree that both guys have it all with respect to rookie QB's. Even if I wasn't an RG3 fan I'd still say Luck is on the outside looking in in this race because of so many things we use to measure a player (metric or intangible) such as QBR (Griff #1 in the NFL as a rookie), accuracy (RG3 is 5th in the NFL), YPA (RG3 is 1st in the NFL), TD:Turnover (Griff Stellar, Luck Not), taking care of the football (RG3's 10 fumbles are farce BTW a lot of those are botched handoffs or pitches the pitch man didn't catch but RG3 get's the tic), pocket presence (both have very good pocket presence), clutch play (both are very clutch), overall playmaking ability (both can make plays but Griff is the best dual threat player at the position ever IMO), toughness (Think Griff has this one), leadership (I'll take Griff over luck here but it's a preference thing).
Here's the thing. This is probably my favorite post of yours in this whole thread, because you just lay some information out there to be worked with. For example, I can grant you that a lot of those statistics contribute to RGIII's case while still pointing out that being 5th in completion percentage doesn't mean being 5th in accuracy. But it's like you say in the beginning - there are "so many things we use to measure a player (metric or intangible)." What you've consistently done throughout this thread is bring up metric after metric and then when people argue for Luck's intangibles, you point back to the metrics and insist that it's incontrovertible proof that Griffin has superior intangibles as well - aspects of the game like reading defenses, making his teammates better, etc.

Now, 18 picks is a lot. It's enough of a difference between the two (Griffin having only 4) that I would expect there to be some positive things to be said about Griffin for keeping his pick numbers so low. But this is where the respect thing comes in - people are arguing that Luck consistently, on a game-to-game basis, is attempting harder throws - throws that are more likely to get picked off, no matter who is throwing them. That doesn't mean RGIII isn't making fantastic throws himself, but that the designs of their respective offenses are such that the throwing responsibilities of Luck are greater, and that's a big reason for lower YPA, lower completion %, and higher INT numbers. We all understand that part of what makes RGIII so amazing is his running ability, although I think you're getting kind of hyperbolic again calling RGIII the best dual threat of all time. But certainly - even if I'm going to say that RGIII's throwing responsibilities are less than Lucks (and I really do - I think they are considerably less), the fact that they are less than Lucks is clearly because of how talented of a runner he is - again, this is a perfectly reasonable thing to point out when making a case for him, but it's just not as simple as comparing their stats because the game scenarios are so different.

Luck's leading the league in interceptions, but that's really the only big negative to his game. You're really going to have to try pretty darn hard to find another statistical reason to put RGIII ahead of him that holds as much water. Because aside from that, Luck is 4th in the league in total offense, second in the league in attempts per game (You were saying "RGIII is the Redskins offense, so consider those two stats to be counterpoints), the Colts are 3rd in the league in first downs (meaning that they consistently move the ball), and Luck leads the league in both 4th quarter comebacks (4) and game-winning drives (6). Particularly if you go back to last year's ranks and see that the Colts were 31st in first downs, have gone from 30th to 7th in total offense, 27th to 8th in passing yards... It's clear that Luck has had a huge impact on that team. The team that picked first overall is a lock for the playoffs. You just can't poo-poo that, no matter how amazing RGIII has been. That's why people feel disrespected when you claim anyone who doesn't think RGIII should win it "must not watch him." The case to make for Luck is more subtle, because it's almost more a matter of understanding what is required of Luck than simply watching him. I think to a lay fan, RGIII does look waaaaaay more impressive on the field, running around, breaking ankles and throwing bombs, but Andrew Luck is being very impressive in his own right - he just has a much different style of play. In some ways, I feel like Luck's performance at the combine is hurting him in this debate; he's such a good athlete (Analysts like to point out that his numbers were really similar to Cam Newton's) that I wonder if people think he should be making more splash plays instead of mastering the routine, which has always been his strength.

So as far as I'm concerned, you can really take your pick. Russell Wilson needs to finish the season in an absolute tear to be seriously in the conversation, being that he started much slower than the other two, but aside from the picks and running ability, there's not a whole lot RGIII has on Luck. Might throw a prettier deep ball. Same goes for Luck - you can say he has a better feel for reading NFL defenses, that he's doing it without really having a running game, that it all comes down the the overall record, etc. There's a lot to say about RGIII and again - I have no problem saying he's got the pole position right now, but it really takes the fun out of the debate when you've got people acting like they and theirs have got the only valid opinion on the matter and won't stop posting to that effect.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Griff is houdini back there. Again not a nock on luck cause he's good too but RG3 is elusive as hell.
Since when is elusiveness is equated with pocket awareness?! Absolutely ludicrous. Or do you think Vick had elite pocket awareness as well? Safe to say your credibility is no where near the Fed's; not that it's your fault.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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Since when is elusiveness is equated with pocket awareness?! Absolutely ludicrous. Or do you think Vick had elite pocket awareness as well? Safe to say your credibility is no where near the Fed's; not that it's your fault.
Again, you have to watch him play to trily understand. RG3 rarely has a pocket to step up in. But when he does he steps up properly, when he doesn't he evades the outside rush with the best of them. Then when he does stand tough he's constantly looking down field and will take the big hit but throw the ball into a small window with that pressure in his face. What is your definition of pocket presence? Mine is seeing or feeling the rush and reacting accordingly.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:09 AM    (permalink
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I want to say the Dolphins for the following reasons:

1. Tannehill isn't 30
2. Because Browns
3. I like Miami's defensive coordinator and they have pass rushers

Although if you give Cleveland 1 or 2 pass rushers on defense and a WR or TE on offense, they suddenly look pretty good themselves.

Both teams are in tough divisions too. But I think Miami has a better chance bc Buffalo and NYJ are both meh, whereas the Steelers will always be the Steelers, the Ravens will always be the Ravens, and the Bengals look like an up and coming team as well.
The Browns are about 2 or 3 plays this year from being 7-6 or 8-5 which is really disappointing, but it is what it is.

I'm for once excited about what we have and moving forward, we are so much better with Haden and Taylor on the field it isnt even funny... And with Richardson getting a year to rest up I hope this team comes out firing next year.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:28 AM    (permalink
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I don't understand why one has to be terrible for the other one to be good.
because internet.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:29 AM    (permalink
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Again, you have to watch him play to trily understand. RG3 rarely has a pocket to step up in. But when he does he steps up properly, when he doesn't he evades the outside rush with the best of them. Then when he does stand tough he's constantly looking down field and will take the big hit but throw the ball into a small window with that pressure in his face. What is your definition of pocket presence? Mine is seeing or feeling the rush and reacting accordingly.
who are you even trying to convince or talk to at this point? All your points are just using stats that favor RG3 and use the most ridiculous "have to watch him play" argument. Stop it, just stop it. Get Ditka out here.

You're embarrassing yourself and making people not want to like RG3 with your ridiculousness.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:45 AM    (permalink
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But can the Colts beat the Texans??
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:31 AM    (permalink
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who are you even trying to convince or talk to at this point? All your points are just using stats that favor RG3 and use the most ridiculous "have to watch him play" argument. Stop it, just stop it. Get Ditka out here.

You're embarrassing yourself and making people not want to like RG3 with your ridiculousness.
Says the guy whose STILL ADDED NOTHING TO THIS! Oh except for calling another guy an idiot and getting zero reaction from your buddys. Here's an idea, Quit making yourself look ridiculous by actually adding something to the discussion besides posts like this. Do you really think you've watched more of RG3 than me? Absolutely no way, the best you could do is see as much as me (which I highly doubt) and if that's the case then quit acting like you know something when it's obvious you're just an arm chair evaluator. I'm not going to sit here and talk about Tannehills tendencies or Weedens because I don't care. With Luck and RG3 I've spent a ton of time watching them so quit acting like you know sonething and prove that you do by proving me wrong.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:41 AM    (permalink
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You're embarrassing yourself and making people not want to like RG3 with your ridiculousness.

The babies love RGIII.

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Old 12-11-2012, 08:25 AM    (permalink
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Yeah but babies are stupid. I'm a father so I know.
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i done stole dis sig
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:35 AM    (permalink
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This guy cracks me up. If you've seen every game of your favorite player that means any stance you take on him is right because you saw him play more then anyone else. Then proceed to call everyone else arm chair evaluators who just watch highlights and try to sound smart after admitting he had to go dig up Andrew Luck completions on Youtube. Obvious troll is obvious.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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Says the guy whose STILL ADDED NOTHING TO THIS! Oh except for calling another guy an idiot and getting zero reaction from your buddys. Here's an idea, Quit making yourself look ridiculous by actually adding something to the discussion besides posts like this. Do you really think you've watched more of RG3 than me? Absolutely no way, the best you could do is see as much as me (which I highly doubt) and if that's the case then quit acting like you know something when it's obvious you're just an arm chair evaluator. I'm not going to sit here and talk about Tannehills tendencies or Weedens because I don't care. With Luck and RG3 I've spent a ton of time watching them so quit acting like you know sonething and prove that you do by proving me wrong.
I've never tried to add anything to the argument. I'm literally just posting in here mocking you because you're so ridiculous and it's hilarious.

You also have worse reading comprehension than the 5th graders I work with, which also gives me chuckles.

But no, continue the classic worst argument ever of "I've seen him play more so I know better than you" argument. It's never failed. Ever.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:52 AM    (permalink
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This guy cracks me up. If you've seen every game of your favorite player that means any stance you take on him is right because you saw him play more then anyone else. Then proceed to call everyone else arm chair evaluators who just watch highlights and try to sound smart after admitting he had to go dig up Andrew Luck completions on Youtube. Obvious troll is obvious.
I've seen more Bear Pascoe than you, so you clearly can't get an idea of what he does for this team or his true talents. He's so much better than Jason Witten. Especially the intangibles he brings, his charisma, they're unmatched.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:56 AM    (permalink
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I personally liked his argument that "Luck probably has had his WRs bail him out more than RG3."

And I wasnt aware there was a real discussion even taking place in here at this point so I'm not sure how Scotty can be at fault. Its basically turned into the Jsagan vs SWDC thread.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:24 AM    (permalink
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I've never tried to add anything to the argument. I'm literally just posting in here mocking you because you're so ridiculous and it's hilarious.

You also have worse reading comprehension than the 5th graders I work with, which also gives me chuckles.

But no, continue the classic worst argument ever of "I've seen him play more so I know better than you" argument. It's never failed. Ever.
Yeah buddy, sure another personal attack. Doubt you'll have njx say anything tho.

Good analisys dude. You're awesome man. Just add something, anything.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:36 AM    (permalink
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Yeah buddy, sure another personal attack. Doubt you'll have njx say anything tho.

Good analisys dude. You're awesome man. Just add something, anything.
Quite a few people in this thread have given actual examples and critique, however no matter what anyone says it is met with the same responses.

You are the person who started this thread and the first person who said Andrew Luck should win you responded by saying "not sure if serious", then when someone brought up the Colts record you stated that it wasn't RG3's fault that the Skins secondary is historically bad (which it isn't).

Then you made a comment about how you can't believe that people like Luck because RG3 " being superior in almost all statistical categories". Then when people called you out about this saying that Luck is the Colts offense you replied "Well neither of you have obviously watched the redskins this season. RG3 is the Redskins. W/O him I doubt the win a single game"

You also stated that "Luck is in the same type of offense he was in college so why hasn't he been better at it?" when he clearly isn't in the same type of offense.

You then stated " Maybe if RG3 had a WR that could catch a cold he'd throw more" yet when I brought up the bad throw which ended up being a TD against the Cowboys you stated that RG3 trusted Garcon. Make up your mind, he either has **** WRs or he doesn't.

When people bring up RG3's perceived weakness in reading defenses you continuously bring up stats. Stats don't tell the whole story. When RG3 doesn't have his first or second guy open he turns everything into a scramble drill. At that stage coverages tend to break down but that isn't a style that is conducive to long term winning, especially considering that he has already suffered a concussion and a sprained LCL as a rookie.

When BBD posted saying he wants to see RG3 make more audibles, sight adjustments, go through his progressions more your response was a well thought out and eloquently put "Well he does all those things so not sure why you say he doesn't" without the slightest hint of any evidence to support our claim.

After that it basically came down to anything anyone ever said about RG3 was wrong, yet we weren't provided any evidence of why and anything anyone said about Luck was clear favourtism because he was still living off hype
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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4,796 yards is the NFL record for worst all time. They were on track to beat that output earlier in the season then they Playeed Foles, clamped down in the second half aganst Eli and Flaaco to bring their average down. So while now the Bucs look to be the worst in NFL history but the skins were on that pace and still could break it (they are that bad).

Then you bring up ONE play where his reciever helped him out (despite him actually saying he meant to put it there) to make it look like he's had his recievers making great catches all year (despite Garcon only playing in 2.2 games up until recently. He had that catch, the Moss grab, and maybe a couple others but it's been way less than some of the amazing grabs I've seen Luck recievers make. But that's part of the game. All QB's get help from their recievers. But for most of the season he's been throwing to journeymen, UDFA's, a declining Moss and 6th round draft pick and he's still killing it. (and again this shows me that you haven't watched him nearly enough to form a valid opinion.)

Then there are the drops. I'm not going to get into it much because again it's part of the game. But they've literally cost us two games a few deep bomb touchdowns and tons of first downs.

Then you talk about him reading defenses. You have no validation to even assert what your saying. Did you ever stop and think that the reason he scrambles is because there's nothing there from all his progressions and he's got defenders bearing down on him? I don't get why you try to make it look like he only hits his primary. There's a reason he has 4 guys peaking toward 500 yards instead of one or two with 1k+? It's because he DOESN't lock onto his primary read and spreads the ball out appropriately. He gets the ball to the open guy period, and he does it quickly and accurately and hist stats reflect the eye test.

His stats are not smoke and mirrors. In his case they are extremely telling as to what he's done on the field.

The reason I've been so shocked throughout this thread is because RG3 has been consistently better, more accurate, less careless with the football, and has shown immense ability as a playmaker and has brought his team back or put them in position to win constantly, and has been an exceptional leader.

Luck has done a lot of the same things. I think he's great and will be a good one but this year he has not out performed RG3 and there is no shame in that.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Haha, I got negrepped with a quote of 'don't mess with Scotty'. Some people are just.. Wow.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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Haha, I got negrepped with a quote of 'don't mess with Scotty'. Some people are just.. Wow.
I really just needed to put something. Your mere presence is justification enough.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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I really just needed to put something. Your mere presence is justification enough.
I imagine a world without you presence would be a much better one. I know this thread w/o your presence would up the quality quite a bit.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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It's when people make assertions that RGIII has difficulty reading defenses, or only makes one or two reads before scrambling is the reason why I as a SKinsfan feel people are making evaluations without having watched an entire Skins game.

(Sorry I know 'you haven't watch X team or player play' is becoming the new SWDC insulting catchphrase, right up there with 'if you don't agree with me you don't understand football'.lol I'm trying not to use it.)

It's the same problem when fans make the offhand comment that Grif runs the option all the time.

In Redskins TC this summer, reporters had an early Q&A with coaches about why Griffin was still allowed to continue running a play when the play was 'dead'; after the defense in a real game would have sacked him?

The explanation was that RGIII wanted to see the full progression of the entire play, where his WRs were breaking and their routes ended on the field, essentially learning to see the entire field offensively without having to stop because of the defense had beaten the Skins oline.

Grif is a little obsessive with his progressions and there have been times this season when he's gone through his progressions twice before throwing the football.

People see RGIII run on a passing down and think he's not processing the game from the pocket and that's not really the case. Sure he has a tendency to slightly hold the ball too long which is on him, but his real issue is he doesn't get the value of taking a negative(a sack) or zero gain play, such as throwing the ball out of bounds.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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But seriously, you want an argument for Luck over RG3 for OROTY, here you go. Do you think AJ McCarron was the best player in college football this year? No, right? Yet because of his record, safe offense that lead to neat stats, he was considered a serious contender for the Heisman. Do you really think Peyton's comeback with a year off is that much more impressive than APs torn ACL that he suffered last December? It's debatable, but because of Peyton's record he is the frontrunner. Voters Value Wins! Remember this! RG3 has been incredible yes, but if Luck takes the 5th seed and the Redskins miss the playoffs this award is Luck's. He took a 1-15 team who had the #1 overall pick and made them a double-digit win team that made it to the playoffs. IF the Colts win even 1 game in the playoffs, it's a wrap. Watch Luck play and tell me his stats still tell the whole story. You talk about how we need to watch RG3 to fully understand, well maybe you need to watch Luck, cause if you did you would see that he has one of the highest football IQs of a rookie EVER! RG3 has raw talent and great ability, but he does not play as smart as Luck and isn't asked to do as much. I absolutely love RG3 and think he is an incredible athlete and QB, but the Redskins could win 5+ without him, the Colts on the other hand, are nothing without Luck. This is why Luck should win, because he has the wins and his team needed him to get those wins
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
It's when people make assertions that RGIII has difficulty reading defenses, or only makes one or two reads before scrambling is the reason why I as a SKinsfan feel people are making evaluations without having watched an entire Skins game.

(Sorry I know 'you haven't watch X team or player play' is becoming the new SWDC insulting catchphrase, right up there with 'if you don't agree with me you don't understand football'.lol I'm trying not to use it.)

It's the same problem when fans make the offhand comment that Grif runs the option all the time.

In Redskins TC this summer, reporters had an early Q&A with coaches about why Griffin was still allowed to continue running a play when the play was 'dead'; after the defense in a real game would have sacked him?

The explanation was that RGIII wanted to see the full progression of the entire play, where his WRs were breaking and their routes ended on the field, essentially learning to see the entire field offensively without having to stop because of the defense had beaten the Skins oline.

Grif is a little obsessive with his progressions and there have been times this season when he's gone through his progressions twice before throwing the football.

People see RGIII run on a passing down and think he's not processing the game from the pocket and that's not really the case. Sure he has a tendency to slightly hold the ball too long which is on him, but his real issue is he doesn't get the value of taking a negative(a sack) or zero gain play, such as throwing the ball out of bounds.
See this is the type of post which actually warrants a decent response. Look, I don't think anyone is stating that he can't go through multiple progressions, it's more to the point of the offense is tailored to limit his exposure to having to do so on a regular basis.

Part of the difficulty in reading defenses and checking through your progressions is being able to do so in a very short space of time and make the correct decision. Either being slow at recognising coverages and route progressions or having to do it twice is a fault of Griffin's, one that everyone within the Redskin's organisation will be anxious gets worked on maniacally throughout the offseason.

However, this year, and to their credit, the Shanahan's have designed an offense to limit his exposure to the rush while giving him time to work on this aspect of the game. It's tough to argue with the numbers he has put up, however we see a completely different QB when he has to pass on anything more than manageable distances.

RG3 is able to improvise on plays a lot because of his athleticism, however there is a real chance he can end up like Michael Vick if he keeps going like this. Scramble drills where the QB buys time gives the WRs and TEs more time to uncover and make throws easier. But it isn't a consistent way to move the chains. Against the Saints the Redskins lined up in pistol formation and ran play action boot left. RG3 had the FB in the flat free and would have easily picked up the first. However he didn't take it, ran around for a bit and hit Fred Davis throwing across his body. It doesn't take an NFL expert to realise that throwing against your momentum is not a good idea.
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