Who is the current OROTY?

[LonghornsLegend]

This guy cracks me up. If you've seen every game of your favorite player that means any stance you take on him is right because you saw him play more then anyone else. Then proceed to call everyone else arm chair evaluators who just watch highlights and try to sound smart after admitting he had to go dig up Andrew Luck completions on Youtube. Obvious troll is obvious.

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Says the guy whose STILL ADDED NOTHING TO THIS! Oh except for calling another guy an idiot and getting zero reaction from your buddys. Here's an idea, Quit making yourself look ridiculous by actually adding something to the discussion besides posts like this. Do you really think you've watched more of RG3 than me? Absolutely no way, the best you could do is see as much as me (which I highly doubt) and if that's the case then quit acting like you know something when it's obvious you're just an arm chair evaluator. I'm not going to sit here and talk about Tannehills tendencies or Weedens because I don't care. With Luck and RG3 I've spent a ton of time watching them so quit acting like you know sonething and prove that you do by proving me wrong.

I've never tried to add anything to the argument. I'm literally just posting in here mocking you because you're so ridiculous and it's hilarious.

You also have worse reading comprehension than the 5th graders I work with, which also gives me chuckles.

But no, continue the classic worst argument ever of "I've seen him play more so I know better than you" argument. It's never failed. Ever.

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend

This guy cracks me up. If you've seen every game of your favorite player that means any stance you take on him is right because you saw him play more then anyone else. Then proceed to call everyone else arm chair evaluators who just watch highlights and try to sound smart after admitting he had to go dig up Andrew Luck completions on Youtube. Obvious troll is obvious.

I've seen more Bear Pascoe than you, so you clearly can't get an idea of what he does for this team or his true talents. He's so much better than Jason Witten. Especially the intangibles he brings, his charisma, they're unmatched.

[Jvig43]

I personally liked his argument that "Luck probably has had his WRs bail him out more than RG3."

And I wasnt aware there was a real discussion even taking place in here at this point so I'm not sure how Scotty can be at fault. Its basically turned into the Jsagan vs SWDC thread.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

I've never tried to add anything to the argument. I'm literally just posting in here mocking you because you're so ridiculous and it's hilarious.

You also have worse reading comprehension than the 5th graders I work with, which also gives me chuckles.

But no, continue the classic worst argument ever of "I've seen him play more so I know better than you" argument. It's never failed. Ever.

Yeah buddy, sure another personal attack. Doubt you'll have njx say anything tho.

Good analisys dude. You're awesome man. Just add something, anything.

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Yeah buddy, sure another personal attack. Doubt you'll have njx say anything tho.

Good analisys dude. You're awesome man. Just add something, anything.

Quite a few people in this thread have given actual examples and critique, however no matter what anyone says it is met with the same responses.

You are the person who started this thread and the first person who said Andrew Luck should win you responded by saying "not sure if serious", then when someone brought up the Colts record you stated that it wasn't RG3's fault that the Skins secondary is historically bad (which it isn't).

Then you made a comment about how you can't believe that people like Luck because RG3 " being superior in almost all statistical categories". Then when people called you out about this saying that Luck is the Colts offense you replied "Well neither of you have obviously watched the redskins this season. RG3 is the Redskins. W/O him I doubt the win a single game"

You also stated that "Luck is in the same type of offense he was in college so why hasn't he been better at it?" when he clearly isn't in the same type of offense.

You then stated " Maybe if RG3 had a WR that could catch a cold he'd throw more" yet when I brought up the bad throw which ended up being a TD against the Cowboys you stated that RG3 trusted Garcon. Make up your mind, he either has **** WRs or he doesn't.

When people bring up RG3's perceived weakness in reading defenses you continuously bring up stats. Stats don't tell the whole story. When RG3 doesn't have his first or second guy open he turns everything into a scramble drill. At that stage coverages tend to break down but that isn't a style that is conducive to long term winning, especially considering that he has already suffered a concussion and a sprained LCL as a rookie.

When BBD posted saying he wants to see RG3 make more audibles, sight adjustments, go through his progressions more your response was a well thought out and eloquently put "Well he does all those things so not sure why you say he doesn't" without the slightest hint of any evidence to support our claim.

After that it basically came down to anything anyone ever said about RG3 was wrong, yet we weren't provided any evidence of why and anything anyone said about Luck was clear favourtism because he was still living off hype

[jsagan77]

4,796 yards is the NFL record for worst all time. They were on track to beat that output earlier in the season then they Playeed Foles, clamped down in the second half aganst Eli and Flaaco to bring their average down. So while now the Bucs look to be the worst in NFL history but the skins were on that pace and still could break it (they are that bad).

Then you bring up ONE play where his reciever helped him out (despite him actually saying he meant to put it there) to make it look like he's had his recievers making great catches all year (despite Garcon only playing in 2.2 games up until recently. He had that catch, the Moss grab, and maybe a couple others but it's been way less than some of the amazing grabs I've seen Luck recievers make. But that's part of the game. All QB's get help from their recievers. But for most of the season he's been throwing to journeymen, UDFA's, a declining Moss and 6th round draft pick and he's still killing it. (and again this shows me that you haven't watched him nearly enough to form a valid opinion.)

Then there are the drops. I'm not going to get into it much because again it's part of the game. But they've literally cost us two games a few deep bomb touchdowns and tons of first downs.

Then you talk about him reading defenses. You have no validation to even assert what your saying. Did you ever stop and think that the reason he scrambles is because there's nothing there from all his progressions and he's got defenders bearing down on him? I don't get why you try to make it look like he only hits his primary. There's a reason he has 4 guys peaking toward 500 yards instead of one or two with 1k+? It's because he DOESN't lock onto his primary read and spreads the ball out appropriately. He gets the ball to the open guy period, and he does it quickly and accurately and hist stats reflect the eye test.

His stats are not smoke and mirrors. In his case they are extremely telling as to what he's done on the field.

The reason I've been so shocked throughout this thread is because RG3 has been consistently better, more accurate, less careless with the football, and has shown immense ability as a playmaker and has brought his team back or put them in position to win constantly, and has been an exceptional leader.

Luck has done a lot of the same things. I think he's great and will be a good one but this year he has not out performed RG3 and there is no shame in that.

[jsagan77]

Haha, I got negrepped with a quote of 'don't mess with Scotty'. Some people are just.. Wow.

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Haha, I got negrepped with a quote of 'don't mess with Scotty'. Some people are just.. Wow.

I really just needed to put something. Your mere presence is justification enough.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by cmarq83

I really just needed to put something. Your mere presence is justification enough.

I imagine a world without you presence would be a much better one. I know this thread w/o your presence would up the quality quite a bit.

[FUNBUNCHER]

It's when people make assertions that RGIII has difficulty reading defenses, or only makes one or two reads before scrambling is the reason why I as a SKinsfan feel people are making evaluations without having watched an entire Skins game.

(Sorry I know 'you haven't watch X team or player play' is becoming the new SWDC insulting catchphrase, right up there with 'if you don't agree with me you don't understand football'.lol I'm trying not to use it.)

It's the same problem when fans make the offhand comment that Grif runs the option all the time.

In Redskins TC this summer, reporters had an early Q&A with coaches about why Griffin was still allowed to continue running a play when the play was 'dead'; after the defense in a real game would have sacked him?

The explanation was that RGIII wanted to see the full progression of the entire play, where his WRs were breaking and their routes ended on the field, essentially learning to see the entire field offensively without having to stop because of the defense had beaten the Skins oline.

Grif is a little obsessive with his progressions and there have been times this season when he's gone through his progressions twice before throwing the football.

People see RGIII run on a passing down and think he's not processing the game from the pocket and that's not really the case. Sure he has a tendency to slightly hold the ball too long which is on him, but his real issue is he doesn't get the value of taking a negative(a sack) or zero gain play, such as throwing the ball out of bounds.

[OSUGiants17]

But seriously, you want an argument for Luck over RG3 for OROTY, here you go. Do you think AJ McCarron was the best player in college football this year? No, right? Yet because of his record, safe offense that lead to neat stats, he was considered a serious contender for the Heisman. Do you really think Peyton's comeback with a year off is that much more impressive than APs torn ACL that he suffered last December? It's debatable, but because of Peyton's record he is the frontrunner. Voters Value Wins! Remember this! RG3 has been incredible yes, but if Luck takes the 5th seed and the Redskins miss the playoffs this award is Luck's. He took a 1-15 team who had the #1 overall pick and made them a double-digit win team that made it to the playoffs. IF the Colts win even 1 game in the playoffs, it's a wrap. Watch Luck play and tell me his stats still tell the whole story. You talk about how we need to watch RG3 to fully understand, well maybe you need to watch Luck, cause if you did you would see that he has one of the highest football IQs of a rookie EVER! RG3 has raw talent and great ability, but he does not play as smart as Luck and isn't asked to do as much. I absolutely love RG3 and think he is an incredible athlete and QB, but the Redskins could win 5+ without him, the Colts on the other hand, are nothing without Luck. This is why Luck should win, because he has the wins and his team needed him to get those wins

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

It's when people make assertions that RGIII has difficulty reading defenses, or only makes one or two reads before scrambling is the reason why I as a SKinsfan feel people are making evaluations without having watched an entire Skins game.

(Sorry I know 'you haven't watch X team or player play' is becoming the new SWDC insulting catchphrase, right up there with 'if you don't agree with me you don't understand football'.lol I'm trying not to use it.)

It's the same problem when fans make the offhand comment that Grif runs the option all the time.

In Redskins TC this summer, reporters had an early Q&A with coaches about why Griffin was still allowed to continue running a play when the play was 'dead'; after the defense in a real game would have sacked him?

The explanation was that RGIII wanted to see the full progression of the entire play, where his WRs were breaking and their routes ended on the field, essentially learning to see the entire field offensively without having to stop because of the defense had beaten the Skins oline.

Grif is a little obsessive with his progressions and there have been times this season when he's gone through his progressions twice before throwing the football.

People see RGIII run on a passing down and think he's not processing the game from the pocket and that's not really the case. Sure he has a tendency to slightly hold the ball too long which is on him, but his real issue is he doesn't get the value of taking a negative(a sack) or zero gain play, such as throwing the ball out of bounds.

See this is the type of post which actually warrants a decent response. Look, I don't think anyone is stating that he can't go through multiple progressions, it's more to the point of the offense is tailored to limit his exposure to having to do so on a regular basis.

Part of the difficulty in reading defenses and checking through your progressions is being able to do so in a very short space of time and make the correct decision. Either being slow at recognising coverages and route progressions or having to do it twice is a fault of Griffin's, one that everyone within the Redskin's organisation will be anxious gets worked on maniacally throughout the offseason.

However, this year, and to their credit, the Shanahan's have designed an offense to limit his exposure to the rush while giving him time to work on this aspect of the game. It's tough to argue with the numbers he has put up, however we see a completely different QB when he has to pass on anything more than manageable distances.

RG3 is able to improvise on plays a lot because of his athleticism, however there is a real chance he can end up like Michael Vick if he keeps going like this. Scramble drills where the QB buys time gives the WRs and TEs more time to uncover and make throws easier. But it isn't a consistent way to move the chains. Against the Saints the Redskins lined up in pistol formation and ran play action boot left. RG3 had the FB in the flat free and would have easily picked up the first. However he didn't take it, ran around for a bit and hit Fred Davis throwing across his body. It doesn't take an NFL expert to realise that throwing against your momentum is not a good idea.

[jsagan77]

So how many players are still there from that 1-15 team? Coaches, GM's?

[y.f.s.]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

It's when people make assertions that RGIII has difficulty reading defenses, or only makes one or two reads before scrambling is the reason why I as a SKinsfan feel people are making evaluations without having watched an entire Skins game.

I haven't read through every post in this thread, but I don't really think that assertion is being made.

My assertion is that the Redskins offense, through formations and play design, is able to get clearly defined defensive looks. You have to run an 8 man front against them, because the threat of him running gives the offense a numbers advantage in the box and in the run game. Remember, there's only so many things you can do Coverage wise from an 8 man front (you've either gotta run a single-high coverage, or a no-safety coverage - basically Cover 1, 3, or 0). So in that sense, he's able to completely dictate what the defense does simply by being on the field. That makes things easier for him and the Redskins O.

Again, they're seeing clearly defined looks and coverages, because RG3 and the offensive design puts the defense in such a conflicting run/pass bind - especially the 2nd and 3rd level defenders who are keying off backfield action. That's not something that should be held against RG3, since he is the catalyst.

[jsagan77]

again, that is an inaccurate assumption. Funbuncher hit the nail on the head. Maybe the fact that rg3 is so fast at processing his reads that you guys aren't seeing it. Now I will agree that he's not back there every play scanning the field because this offense has so many different caveats. But when he does he's been phoenominal. But u can't knock him for that. He should only be judged on what he's asked to execute. I know everything he does isn't traditional but that's because he's so dangerous in every aspect of the game the staff would be dumb not to use all his ability to create mismatches for a defense. When you have a QB with the release of Arod (.35 sec), and the burst (0-15 mph in 1 sec) and top gear speed of Adrian Peterson you have the opportunity to develop an offense that is unprecedented, and the skins have done that. When Giants players say that RG3 is harfer to defend than Drew Brees (as a rookie) you know you have a special talent.

This award isn't about win's and losses (that's more of a team accolade). It's about the best offensive rookie, period. When you take into account everything he's done in the air and on the ground and then look at the numbers and him leading the NFL in multiple categories (again as a rookie) there isn't really anything you can look at and say definitively that Luck has been better than RG3.

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

See this is the type of post which actually warrants a decent response. Look, I don't think anyone is stating that he can't go through multiple progressions, it's more to the point of the offense is tailored to limit his exposure to having to do so on a regular basis.

Part of the difficulty in reading defenses and checking through your progressions is being able to do so in a very short space of time and make the correct decision. Either being slow at recognising coverages and route progressions or having to do it twice is a fault of Griffin's, one that everyone within the Redskin's organisation will be anxious gets worked on maniacally throughout the offseason.

However, this year, and to their credit, the Shanahan's have designed an offense to limit his exposure to the rush while giving him time to work on this aspect of the game. It's tough to argue with the numbers he has put up, however we see a completely different QB when he has to pass on anything more than manageable distances.

RG3 is able to improvise on plays a lot because of his athleticism, however there is a real chance he can end up like Michael Vick if he keeps going like this. Scramble drills where the QB buys time gives the WRs and TEs more time to uncover and make throws easier. But it isn't a consistent way to move the chains. Against the Saints the Redskins lined up in pistol formation and ran play action boot left. RG3 had the FB in the flat free and would have easily picked up the first. However he didn't take it, ran around for a bit and hit Fred Davis throwing across his body. It doesn't take an NFL expert to realise that throwing against your momentum is not a good idea.

[Jvig43]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

So how many players are still there from that 1-15 team? Coaches, GM's?

So how many new players/coaches are contributing just as much or more so than Luck?

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

I imagine a world without you presence would be a much better one. I know this thread w/o your presence would up the quality quite a bit.

Meh, I'm sure the world would be pretty indifferent either way if it was +/- one college aged white guy in Connecticut, but that is just my opinion.

As far as the RGIII/Luck thing goes, I've generally tried to avoid this thread because of the general terribleness of this abortion of discussion, but I think RGIII should be OROTY. You can't really hold it against him because his offense has been so successful thus far. His exceptional ability to move the football with his legs coupled with some solid accuracy has been deadly to opponents so far. It's a testament to his physical and mental traits as a player that he has been so successful early in his career.

With that said if given the choice today between the 2 of them I'd take Luck without hesitation. You see so much of what Luck is going to become in every game you see him play. He has about 3-5 throws every game where you basically throw up your hands and say "Yup this guy is going to be the best one day". The way he has been t'd off on all season behind his O-line and you still see the determination to hang in there and throw down the field is incredible. He's basically everything we've ever wanted Jay Cutler to become with his godawful supporting cast. His ball placement is incredible on most throws, but I think he's had to attempt too many difficult passes on the run which has boosted his turnovers. A better O-Line is going to make him an absolute stud.

Griffin is playing awesome, and who is to say that people ever really begin to stop the offense he's running, but Luck is 2 years away from being every bit as good as Rodgers, Manning, and Brady are now. I think RGIII has a lot more work to do on his game to take it to that level. Again it has no bearing on this year's race, which is why RGIII should be ROTY.

[jsagan77]

Oh jesus her we go with the neg rep waterfall from the highschool crowd. Go OD on some acid or something please.

[descendency]

I've seen quite a few games of both and I can't (without sitting down and grading the games) tell you which is better. It's really close.

[killxswitch]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Oh jesus her we go with the neg rep waterfall from the highschool crowd. Go OD on some acid or something please.

LOL but you don't really care, right? Because your life is so great and as a doctoral candidate you're totally above all this silly "rep" business. You're just complaining about it BECAUSE you don't care.

[Jvig43]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Oh jesus her we go with the neg rep waterfall from the highschool crowd. Go OD on some acid or something please.

No one messes with Scotty.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by Jvig43

So how many new players/coaches are contributing just as much or more so than Luck?

I forgot Luck has had no help all season. Sorry about that.

[Jvig43]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

I forgot Luck has had no help all season. Sorry about that.

I was just wondering specifically who it was, be it players or coaches that you were referring to that had just as much of an impact to that teams turn around as Luck.

[y.f.s.]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Oh jesus her we go with the neg rep waterfall from the highschool crowd. Go OD on some acid or something please.

It's virtually impossible to overdose on Acid. It'd cost a small fortune just to get enough to attempt it.