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View Poll Results: Who's your MVP entering Sunday week 12
P Manning 28 50.00%
A Rodgers 4 7.14%
T Brady 12 21.43%
R Griffin 1 1.79%
D Brees 3 5.36%
M Ryan 2 3.57%
A Peterson 4 7.14%
A Foster 0 0%
M Lynch 1 1.79%
Other: Who? 1 1.79%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-19-2012, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jvig43 View Post
We certainly didnt have a similar running attack. What so ever. Maroney was awful. Neither did we utilize the TE position like we are right now either. Ugh I dont even want to continue down this list. Stupid argument is stupid.
Exactly, our RBs that year were Maroney, Lamont Jordan and Sammy Morris. Jordan had a relatively nice year but the rushing attack was completely different compared to this year and the TEs were Thomas and Watson simply because it was a completely different offensive scheme and that position wasn't featured.

The Patriots offensive scheme has literally changed about 4 times since their last Superbowl win.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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[quote=njx9;3217390]and good randy moss, and completely different offensive personnel, and a more competent defense (10th in yardage, vs 27th, 8th in points vs 17th). you're an idiot if you think brady isn't valuable to the patriots because of 2008, period. it's indefensible.


Obviously I never said Brady wasn't valuable. I'd pick manning or ad at this point over him but wouldn't hate it if Brady won. He deserves to be right there in the race.

But 2008 is relevant to the discussion. To completely dismiss the 1 season belichicks pats did not have Brady would be silly if you're trying to gauge his value to the team.

Is it a perfect case study? No way. Should it be the entire argument or the sticking point that changes your decision? Probably not. But you can't just ignore it because they had different weapons and a better d.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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Without AD the vikes win like three games max. Seems pretty valuable to me.

Without andrew luck colts win 2 games
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:54 AM    (permalink
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Obviously I never said Brady wasn't valuable. I'd pick manning or ad at this point over him but wouldn't hate it if Brady won. He deserves to be right there in the race.

But 2008 is relevant to the discussion. To completely dismiss the 1 season belichicks pats did not have Brady would be silly if you're trying to gauge his value to the team.

Is it a perfect case study? No way. Should it be the entire argument or the sticking point that changes your decision? Probably not. But you can't just ignore it because they had different weapons and a better d.
The Pats have 8 players on their roster who were also there in 2008. Brady, Welker, Mankins, Connolly, Slater, Wilfork, Mayo and Gostkowski.

4 offensive players, 2 defensive players and 2 special teamers. It was also a completely different scheme. That year has little to no relevance on this year. People can say that the one year Brady went down the Pats still won 11 games, but if that is their argument to lower Brady's value then it really doesn't hold much water
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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[quote=gpngc;3217413]
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
and good randy moss, and completely different offensive personnel, and a more competent defense (10th in yardage, vs 27th, 8th in points vs 17th). you're an idiot if you think brady isn't valuable to the patriots because of 2008, period. it's indefensible.


Obviously I never said Brady wasn't valuable. I'd pick manning or ad at this point over him but wouldn't hate it if Brady won. He deserves to be right there in the race.

But 2008 is relevant to the discussion. To completely dismiss the 1 season belichicks pats did not have Brady would be silly if you're trying to gauge his value to the team.

Is it a perfect case study? No way. Should it be the entire argument or the sticking point that changes your decision? Probably not. But you can't just ignore it because they had different weapons and a better d.
Your logic in this thread isn't consistent. First you come into the thread stating this

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Why? What does Manning's reputation have to do with him coming into a completely new environment with all but what 1 new teammate and immediately making that team into a Super Bowl contender?
Then a few posts later you follow up with this


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In these discussions I'll never forget Matt Cassel's 11-5 season or last year's Colts. I know that's unfair for many reasons, but I just won't.
Those are two completely conflicting statements, because you ask what Mannings reputation has to do with his ability this year, then directly bring up the importance he had on the Colts team which he isnt playing for any more, as if that somehow affects his importance to the Broncos.

I would give Manning my vote as well, but this argument is just so asinine. It has no bearing on this conversation what so ever.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:16 AM    (permalink
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Idk I I'm tired or off today but I have no idea how those statements are contradicting. I think mannings more valuable than Brady this year and he has been for most years.

Both of those statements support that idea.

Maybe that idea is wrong to you but it isn't inconsistent.

Edit. Now I get it. You are completely taking the quote out of context.

Ness said manning would win the award this year bc of rep, not bc he deserves it. Then I replied that his accomplishments this yr by themselves are special bc. He's taken that team to new heights in his first year.

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Old 12-19-2012, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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I agree Peterson is the best player, but again I do not think ANY hb is the most valuable player in the NFL(in todays game)
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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Without andrew luck colts win 2 games
If they had Curtis Painter, yeah.
Not if they had Russell Wilson, or Matt Flynn.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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I think for a RB to be MVP he needs to have a season like Ladainian Tomlinson had in 2006 when he won it; 1816 yds rushing/28 TDs/56 catches for 506 yds/3 TDs.


For a RB to win I think he has to do more than gain yards, he needs to score.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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For a RB to win I think he has to do more than gain yards, he needs to score.
I guarantee that the Chargers were in the redzone FAR more that year than the Vikings have been this year. Not really a fair comparison.

Also, I know RB's aren't valuable but we all agree that Minnesota would be a strong contender for the #1 pick and not a 8-6 team if it wasn't for Peterson, right?
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Not to mention the Chargers were LOADED on offense, giving Tomlinson a million more opportunities because his QB could actually get them in the red zone.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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I think for a RB to be MVP he needs to have a season like Ladainian Tomlinson had in 2006 when he won it; 1816 yds rushing/28 TDs/56 catches for 506 yds/3 TDs.


For a RB to win I think he has to do more than gain yards, he needs to score.
Peterson is having a more impressive season than Tomlinson had. I value TDs over yards for QBs, but yards are more impressive than TDs for RBs. And it's not like Peterson has never scored. He has 11 TDs, good enough for second in the league. For the top RBs, TDs is all about opportunity. Tomlinson had so many more chances for easy TDs than Peterson. 23 of Tomlinson's 28 came from within 10 yards, but once you get outside that Peterson is creating more TDs on his own.

TD Runs over 10 yards

Tomlinson: 4
Peterson: 4

TD runs over 50 yards

Tomlinson: 2
Peterson: 4

Give Peterson the same opportunities that Tomlinson had in '06 and he'd be in the 30s. I know MVP is about actual production, not theoretical production, but 13 or 14 TDs is still plenty.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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If they had Curtis Painter, yeah.
Not if they had Russell Wilson, or Matt Flynn.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:52 PM    (permalink
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Just checked into the official wagering line on the MVP from Vegas, and they tend to know more than people like BS Dreadlock, me, even njx9.

Here's what they have:

P Manning 2/3
A Peterson 6/5
T Brady 10/1

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Old 12-19-2012, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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Probably because Watt is a defensive player and his production has dropped a bit in comparison with his ridiculous first half, and the fact that Rodgers shouldnt be considered in the running for MVP this year.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:43 AM    (permalink
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Vegas would read what all the MVP voters are saying about the MVP race and then base calculations on that.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:38 AM    (permalink
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Td's are no different for HB's or any other position in my mind.

You win games by scoring points, I dont care if you are on Defense, or a TE, HB, QB or WR..

Yards look good on the stat sheet but TD's(points) are honestly the only thing that has a direct impact...


If a HB has 90 yard run and then the QB throws an INT in the endzone what good does that run do for the team?



I would take a HB that puts up 1500 yards and 28 touchdowns over a 2000 yard rusher with 15 td's..that's a 78 point difference
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:52 AM    (permalink
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Adrian Peterson: 1,313 Rush yds in last 8 games (most over any 8-game span in NFL history) #ALLDAY -- NFL on ESPN (@ESPNNFL
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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Td's are no different for HB's or any other position in my mind.

You win games by scoring points, I dont care if you are on Defense, or a TE, HB, QB or WR..

Yards look good on the stat sheet but TD's(points) are honestly the only thing that has a direct impact...


If a HB has 90 yard run and then the QB throws an INT in the endzone what good does that run do for the team?



I would take a HB that puts up 1500 yards and 28 touchdowns over a 2000 yard rusher with 15 td's..that's a 78 point difference
Yeah I don't see how yards are more important than touchdowns necessarily. Peterson is having a great year, but it isn't necessarily better than Tomlinson's 2006 year just because he has more yards and is averaging a little more per carry. 28 touchdowns is absurd.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:19 AM    (permalink
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Yeah I don't see how yards are more important than touchdowns necessarily. Peterson is having a great year, but it isn't necessarily better than Tomlinson's 2006 year just because he has more yards and is averaging a little more per carry. 28 touchdowns is absurd.
Tomlinson scored a ton of his TD's because he had one of the most potent offenses in the league. Stacked with talent.

Adrian Peterson has Christian Ponder...
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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Peterson has an astounding 8 touchdowns!!.... 2 games where he didnt score

Want to see impactfull/dominant or a player that had a direct impact on his team winning look at 2006 LT 33 Td's(Passing,Receiving,Rushing) in the last 8 weeks he scored 16 Td's along with 987 yards... you can take your 326 extra yards all day I will take the extra 48 points

Again yards look nice on paper, but points win games
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:27 AM    (permalink
Forenci
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Peterson has an astounding 8 touchdowns!!.... 2 games where he didnt score

Want to see impactfull/dominant or a player that had a direct impact on his team winning look at 2006 LT 33 Td's(Passing,Receiving,Rushing) in the last 8 weeks he scored 16 Td's along with 987 yards... you can take your 326 extra yards all day I will take the extra 48 points

Again yards look nice on paper, but points win games
Or you know, having an amazing offense and defense wins you games too. Including a QB who can get you into the red zone and near the goal line. And one who is respected enough where you can't stack the box and sell out against the run.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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That's fine, I just think with a superior offense, defense and a quarterback who doesn't suck Peterson would have likely scored more touchdowns.

And I don't really put much weight on TD's for running backs. A running back gets his team in position to help score points, even if he doesn't score them himself. That's why the yardage is so important. Sure he might not be converting the TD's himself, but there are any number of reasons for that.

And 28 touchdowns was a huge fluke. LT never even came close to that mark again. Getting those many touch downs is more a matter of circumstance than skill.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:56 AM    (permalink
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Peterson has 11 touchdowns though. So that's cool. Not sure how you mess up a stat such as that. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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Is there a chance that Brady wins the MVP, Peyton wins the comeback player, and AD wins nothing? Would be pretty weird if a RB and WR broke the all-time yardage records of Dickerson & Jerry Rice in a season but neither won an award for them.
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