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Old 12-19-2012, 05:45 AM    (permalink
bucfan12
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Josh is better than Alex.
Really? Do tell? I'm interested in hearing the comparison.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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Thoughts on the Banks prediction/mock? Personally not a big fan but CB is such a big need.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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Thoughts on the Banks prediction/mock? Personally not a big fan but CB is such a big need.
Not a fan either. Want a CB but not Banks. Xavier Rhodes if possible or take dion Jordan , as Scott has him available at 15.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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Really? Do tell? I'm interested in hearing the comparison.
Alex Smith to me is a nice QB. A QB that's needs all parts of his team to be good so he can be good and not force things. A game manager, a great one at that.

Josh Freeman can become a great QB. Has all the tools to do so. Is still very young and in the first year in a new offense with new players all around him ( Vjax, Clark, Martin and most of the O line. )

Freeman also playing on a team that's defense is dead last in passing, 29th in sacks and giving up 25 points a game. As Bucs fans we all need to calm down. The great Peyton Manning has had games where his tossed 4 or more ints.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:18 AM    (permalink
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Alex Smith to me is a nice QB. A QB that's needs all parts of his team to be good so he can be good and not force things. A game manager, a great one at that.

Josh Freeman can become a great QB. Has all the tools to do so. Is still very young and in the first year in a new offense with new players all around him ( Vjax, Clark, Martin and most of the O line. )

Freeman also playing on a team that's defense is dead last in passing, 29th in sacks and giving up 25 points a game. As Bucs fans we all need to calm down. The great Peyton Manning has had games where his tossed 4 or more ints.
I think this is what this team needs. Smith was on his way to a great year til a concision knocked him out. He's shown he can win on the playoffs Nd is only 28 years old. Accurate and good arm strength. Makes all the throws necessary.

With freeman how much longer can you bank on potential? 4 years in the league and he still looks lost. Manning may occasionally have bad games but freeman is no where near his level nor deserves to be in the same sentence in comparison.

Alex smith would have the supporting cast on offense to succeed. Then we can focus on the defense.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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I would punch babies if we replaced Freeman with Alex Smith. The idea is stupid.
Compare Alex Smith's first 4 years to Freeman's, it's not even a competition in my mind. Freeman has right around the same numbers (a little less) in 4 seasons compared to Smith's 7 seasons.
If you want to dump Freeman then draft a QB, I wouldn't want to go the veteran route like we did under Gruden.
I still think Freeman is our guy, he will never be top 5 but I think he can be a top 10 guy, kinda like Big Ben.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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I would punch babies if we replaced Freeman with Alex Smith. The idea is stupid.
Compare Alex Smith's first 4 years to Freeman's, it's not even a competition in my mind. Freeman has right around the same numbers (a little less) in 4 seasons compared to Smith's 7 seasons.
If you want to dump Freeman then draft a QB, I wouldn't want to go the veteran route like we did under Gruden.
I still think Freeman is our guy, he will never be top 5 but I think he can be a top 10 guy, kinda like Big Ben.
I also would not be against starting freeman getting the top pick in 2014 and drafting Bridgewater outta Louisville. Elite prospect
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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You are either a dumbass or you just really hate Freeman to think we would get the number one pick in 2014 if Freeman remains the starter.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:08 AM    (permalink
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You are either a dumbass or you just really hate Freeman to think we would get the number one pick in 2014 if Freeman remains the starter.
Wit the weapons he has on offense he should be performing better. Especially against better teams. Take note: that hot streak he played during 4 game stretch was against sub .500 opponents. Teams know how to figure freeman out and confuse him. It's simple because you take away his first target he's not completing a pass bc he doesn't process coverages not see the field well enough. Even during those games they were noticeable but no one pointed them out bc bucs were winning.

If you haven't developed accuracy 4 years into the league where you can't just constantly live by the deep ball, then you won't be an accurate qb.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:11 AM    (permalink
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You are either a dumbass or you just really hate Freeman to think we would get the number one pick in 2014 if Freeman remains the starter.
Also your comments are impulsive. I do not hate anyone. This is a football opinion and discussion in terms of play on the field. Get the message.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:12 AM    (permalink
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Also your comments are impulsive. I do not hate anyone. This is a football opinion and discussion in terms of play on the field. Get the message.
Got the message, you're a dumbass.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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Look is freeman going to be replaced next year? No. But the frot office should not commit long term to an erratic inconsistent qb long term who cannot beat good teams. You can talk clutch FA toe all you want but he doesn't show that in BIG games.

Regardless of the 25 tds and 12 INTs his stats have been inflated towards poor defenses and yes big plays bailed out by his supporting cast.

If cannot be accurate on short and intermediate routes, it usually means you are not a starter in this league. He has never been accurate and these issues have dated back since college.

Free is successful due to the long ball but you can't consistantly live by that.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:30 PM    (permalink
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Alex Smith will be available.
We're looking for a franchise QB, not a stop gap in the Brad Johnson mold. BTW, how was Alex Smith's career up to the point he was 24? Better yet, let's look at where he was after 4 seasons, shall we?

Let's see... took him until his 7th season until he had a rating of over...83... His first 4 seasons his best QB rating was 75.7, best completion percentage was 58.1, best TD:INT ration was 16:16.

Let's look at his entire career because it's obvious Freeman is 1000X better at the same stage in their careers.

The most TDs Smith ever threw? 18? WOW, that's awesome! It took him until his 7th season to have a season in which he was over .500 as a starter... what exactly makes you think he is such a huge upgrade? The first season in his career that he actually completed more than Freeman's second best season of 61.4% of his passes was this year.

Oh, and by the way, Freeman was well over .500 in his second year as a starter, threw for 60% or more 2 of 4 years, and twice threw for 25 TDs (including this season which isn't over) while Smith has once thrown for as many as 18 TDs.

As for career numbers, Freeman's career rating is 80.8, which is a full point and a half better than Smith's 79.1. Oh yeah, Freeman's career TD:INT numbers of 76:58 are better than Smith's 81:63.

So what you're saying is that we should dump that 24 year old guy that is just scratching the surface of his potential, in favor of a QB that has one more contract in him and hasn't even been better over the course of his career than the one you want to get rid of?

Seriously, this is why they don't allow kids in the draftroom. Your logic is flawed, your reasoning is moronic, and your final conclusion is flat out wrong.

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Old 12-21-2012, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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I think this is what this team needs. Smith was on his way to a great year til a concision knocked him out. He's shown he can win on the playoffs Nd is only 28 years old. Accurate and good arm strength. Makes all the throws necessary.

With freeman how much longer can you bank on potential? 4 years in the league and he still looks lost. Manning may occasionally have bad games but freeman is no where near his level nor deserves to be in the same sentence in comparison.

Alex smith would have the supporting cast on offense to succeed. Then we can focus on the defense.
And it took Alex Smith 7 years to become a useful starter.... A useful starter that was widely considered the weak-link on an otherwise excellent team.

His arm strength is good? Have you watched the 49ers play? Kaepernick has excellent arm strength and it shows because the 49ers have finally opened up the playbook because Harbaugh doesn't have to deal with Smith's average arm.

BTW, it was well documented on this site, that I was a huge fan of Colin Kaepernick coming out of college and knew it was only a matter of time that he showed he was clearly a better option for the 49ers than Smith... just like I believe Freeman is as well.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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Watching a young QB develop can be very painful. But the key is that patience is maintained as we wait for the finished product. We will never see that finished product if we give up too soon.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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Wit the weapons he has on offense he should be performing better. Especially against better teams. Take note: that hot streak he played during 4 game stretch was against sub .500 opponents. Teams know how to figure freeman out and confuse him. It's simple because you take away his first target he's not completing a pass bc he doesn't process coverages not see the field well enough. Even during those games they were noticeable but no one pointed them out bc bucs were winning.

If you haven't developed accuracy 4 years into the league where you can't just constantly live by the deep ball, then you won't be an accurate qb.
Seriously, Smith didn't complete 60+% of his passes until his 5th season in the league.... what did you just say again?

Did I mention that Freeman did it two of his first three seasons?

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Old 12-21-2012, 07:50 PM    (permalink
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Default Defensively speaking the Bucs are more talented than the last good Buc D

I posted this on JoeBucsFan earlier today and I figure I didn't want my research to be wasted over there and thought I would share it with you.

In regards to potential D coordinators. My choice is Ron Meeks, then Monte Kiffin, then Marinelli. Bill Sheridan is awful and he proved that when he took a top 5 Giant D and they finished 30th under his watch, then bounced back to number 13 when he was fired. QBs before he arrived had a 75.7 rating and were sacked 42x, when he arrived they threw unimpeded at 95 rating and only being sacked 32X, and after he left QBs had a 80.2 rating and were dumped 48X. This is with pretty much the same talent all three years. The Bucs are not lacking in the talent department, they are lacking in the defensive coordinator department. Here is what I wrote on JoeBucsfan:


Some of you guys are bitter towards Kiffin for ZERO reason. Even the year that he left to coach with his son (understandable), despite the defense completely tanking the last 4 games, it was the 12th time in 13 seasons his defense finished top 10 in scoring defense. Keep in mind please, that he did this without: Sapp, Rice, Lynch, Brooks in his prime, Quarles, Kelly and others. Instead, he led a ragged group of Buc defenders led by Barrett Ruud (back when people thought he was good), Cato June, Philip Buchanan, Kevin Carter, Gaines Adams, Stylez White, Chris Hovan, Jermaine Phillips, Jovan Haye, and Sabby Piscitelli. Any of those guys get Pro Bowl consideration that year? No, it was mainly due to Kiffin and his coaching that these horrid defenders did as well as they did… all the way back in 2008 it was. You have people on here saying he’s done, his system is outdated, etc…. sure, the same system the Bears and Vikings use so well is outdated.

There’s more talent on this Buc defense than the 2008 top 10 defense of the Bucs. BTW, the 2008 Bucs held opposing QBs to a 75.3 rating…compare that to the current rating of 95…

Check it out
2008 2012
LDE Kevin Carter Michael Bennett
UT Jovan Haye Gerald McCoy
NT Chris Hovan Roy Miller
RDE Gaines Adams/S. White Adrian Clayborn/D. Bowers

SLB Cato June Quincy Black/Adam Hayward
MLB Barrett Ruud Mason Foster
WLB Derrick Brooks Lavonte David

LCB Philip Buchanan EJ Biggers
FS Tanard Jackson Ronde Barber
SS Jermaine Phillips Mark Barron
RCB Ronde Barber Eric Wright

Person for person each member of the of the 2012 Bucs defensive line is far better than their 2008 counterpart.

At SLB, Cato June statistically speaking is no better than Black and Hayward. As a matter of fact, both Black and Hayward have done very well when on the field this season (especially Black against the run). I’ll try to be fair and call this a push…even though June only played in ONE NFL game the rest of his career after 2008.

I’m going to call the MLB Ruud vs Foster matchup in favor of Foster. Ruud had his deficiencies against the run, Foster against the pass, the needle is clearly pointed up for Foster, it was all downhill for Ruud after 2008, Considering the SLB battle was a push, it’s only fair if 2012 gets the nod in this battle.

At WLB, even though it was Brooks’ last season in the NFL and he had clearly lost a step or two and David looks to be a burgeoning super star in the making. I’ll give the nod to the 2008 Bucs WLB because of Brooks’ HOF career.

So far the 2012 Bucs defenders have a 5-1-1 edge over the 2008 squad that was top 5 when Kiffin announced he was leaving with 4 games left.

LCB People love to hate on EJ Biggers even though he has been the best cover CB for the Bucs this season by far. Hate on him all you want, he’s the best we have and under a decent DC he would probably be excellent. We let him go, we have Al Harris all over again. He’ll go on to be a really good player for a good long while for another team. Either way. Buchanon’s 2008 season was his last in Tampa, he played a few more years and was decent for the Bucs. To make the Biggers haters happy, I’ll give Buchanon the nod though I tend to see it as more of a push.

FS Ronde Barber will make the Pro Bowl this season and deservedly so. Tanard Jackson had potential and occasionally lived up to it. That being said, this is closer than the numbers should indicate, but the edge goes to Barber.

SS Mark Barron vs Jermaine Phillips. I really liked Phillips, Barron has done some good things. That being said, they are very similar players except Phillips missed the last 5 games and was replaced by Sabby the GOAT. I have to go with Barron simply for the reason that his forearms aren’t made of glass. Advantage Barron and 2012 Bucs

RCB Wright isn’t as bad as we think, Barber not as good as we thought. Still the 2008 version of Barber gets the nod over Wright due to production and not being suspended.

Final tally? Person to person, the 2012 Buccaneers defense has better players by a 7-3-1 edge. The big difference of why better players don’t equal a better defense? A terrible defensive coordinator vs. an excellent one. Say what you want about Kiffin, but the truth is, is that he had those average defenders playing great defense for the first 12 games of the season.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:17 PM    (permalink
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I do want to see us get CB help... in rounds 2 or 3 (Barber, D. Abraham, and Dwight Smith were 3rd rounders... Al Harris was a 6th rounder, Brian Kelly was a 2nd rounder). But more than anything I want to see us continue to upgrade the pass rush.

The 3 guys I like:

DE/SLB Dion Jordan. He can play SLB in the base defense, DE in the nickel.
DT Sheldon Richardson. McCoy and he could be interchangeable, either at UT or NT, beefing up the pass rush from the DTs and keeping McCoy from getting double teamed constantly.
DE Ezekial Ansah. He's a freak of nature. He could be similar to JPP, lining up anywhere and everywhere.

I like some of these big CBs to fall into round 2. Amerson, Banks, Wreh-Wilson, Trufant, etc. Perhaps get another in round 3... or not. Slot WR would be a nice find.


My draft:
1) DE/SLB Dion Jordan Oregon-pass rushing specialist on 3rd down, sam backer on early downs
2) CB Desmond Trufant Washington-Should come in right away and press for playing time
3) WR Stedman Bailey WVU-ultra productive hands catcher with speed and toughness.
4) DT Josh Boyd Mississippi St.-Would push for reps at NT and may eventually be an inside pass rusher
4) S Micah Hyde Iowa-productive in collge playing for a pro style coach
5) RB Perry Jones Virginia-productive little RB with punt and kick return skills and 3rd down RB productivity.
6) TE/H-B Mike Shanahan Pitt-collegiate WR with the size and toughness to move to a move TE
7) TE Colter Phillips Virginia-big, strong blocking TE with good hands and decent production.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by brasho View Post
And it took Alex Smith 7 years to become a useful starter.... A useful starter that was widely considered the weak-link on an otherwise excellent team.

His arm strength is good? Have you watched the 49ers play? Kaepernick has excellent arm strength and it shows because the 49ers have finally opened up the playbook because Harbaugh doesn't have to deal with Smith's average arm.

BTW, it was well documented on this site, that I was a huge fan of Colin Kaepernick coming out of college and knew it was only a matter of time that he showed he was clearly a better option for the 49ers than Smith... just like I believe Freeman is as well.
Free completed over 60% last year but did you not see how many times he checked down?
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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Ezekian Ansah has just topped my list. This guy is going to be baller and beast.

Another sleeper I'd watch for: John boyyett s Oregon. He missed this year and will be a starter I this league.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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Free completed over 60% last year but did you not see how many times he checked down?
You don't think Alex Smith checks down? Did you see how little the WRs produced with Smith at the helm? He is Captain Checkdown 2.0, hence me calling him Brad Johnson. Who the hell was Free going to throw to anyway? A double covered Mike Williams, Benn, Preston Parker, or Winslow who couldn't get open against a Sheridan defense?
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:59 AM    (permalink
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Just rewatched the BYU-San Diego St. game... I have to say, I was thoroughly unimpressed with Ziggy Ansah.

A big reason for not being impressed likely had to do with how Ansah was utilized by BYU on D.

First to go over the positives:
His closing speed is excellent. Once he decides to open up his hips and give chase, his speed is apparent on film and could be a major asset.

He has a fantastic motor. No matter where the ball was, he always gave chase. On one particular play, a screen, Ansah missed the tackle (a soccer style-looking slide tackle), got up, then made the tackle 25 yards downfield.

His strength is a plus. He was double teamed often, and even more often he lined up at 5-technique and then stunted inside taking on the guard and was able to stand toe-to-toe with a much bigger Olineman and usually not give ground. He does not have great strength as a 2-gap DL, but he is definitely not weak.

The negatives:
Due to BYU's scheme, he was constantly head up on the opposing OLinemen so it is impossible to see him display the skills needed to be successful as a 4-3 DE.

He stands nearly straight up at the snap. His head pops up, then his body follows. He is quick to engage an OL, and although he does a pretty good job with his hands, in pass rush he doesn't use his speed at all.

His first step explosion is completely negated by a sloppy loose stance and taking short choppy steps. Again, this is probably part of the scheme at BYU. No DL ever looked to hit a hard edge, bend and turn the corner. On obvious passing downs, Ansah was often moved to NT where it was even harder to see if he had the first step explosion, stride, and lean to get to the QB.

Even when he was "trying" to rush the passer, he was often the furthest BYU DL from the QB. The announcers even said on the ball that he intercepted that he was playing like a spy on the play. He wasn't spying, he just got ZERO penetration on the play. He got no penetration on many other plays as well, getting stoned at the LOS. Again, this could have a lot to do with BYU's scheme and also perhaps he wasn't supposed to get much penetration to keep the QB in the pocket.


Anyway, after watching there were little questions I had about him that were answered. At this point, it would be a stretch to project Ansah into round 1. The good news is that he accepted his invite to the Senior Bowl and his ability to get off the ball and turn the corner in the one on one drills will be on display for all the world to see. But at this stage, despite Ansah's obvious physical advantages, his situation reminds me quite a bit of Miami's DE Allen Bailey and UNC's DT Marvin Austin. As for Bailey, I never saw him run the arc and despite his freakish athletic ability, he was slow off the ball, lacked pass rush technique, and didn't live up to his press clippings. In comparison to Marvin Austin, it was widely known that Austin was an athletic marvel, but he often failed to get penetration (though Austin was routinely pushed 10 yards downfield in college) or distinguish himself... Okay, comparing him to Austin might be a bit much because I absolutely hated Austin as a prospect and I'm still intrigued with Ansah. But for right now, the comparison to Bailey, perhaps due to scheme, is warranted. His athleticism may still be JPP 2.0, but from what I've seen so far, he has a lot to prove.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:36 AM    (permalink
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There's no doubt Anseh is a heck of a prospect. But he's still new to football and position in general. I think once an nfl coaching staff gets a hold of him he'd flourish.

Not saying we have to take him but I think he'll turn into a stud. Too bad he'll probably go top 20-25.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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We can't even throw a basic slant pattern. How pathetic! This offense is so predictable. And Josh Freeman acts like he has never seen a blitz before, he gets so F'n scared. I'm not trolling, I'm a bucs fan but the last 4 games blow. All defense in the draft.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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Add QB sneak to the list we can't do either.
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