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View Poll Results: Who gets your vote for Rookie of the Year right now?
Robert Griffin 55 37.93%
Andrew Luck 56 38.62%
Russell Wilson 34 23.45%
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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I have a question, who is having a better season Big Ben or Matt Stafford? Schaub or Eli Manning?
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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And another, what would Griff or Wilson have to do to have a better season than Luck?

Last edited by jsagan77 : 12-21-2012 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Damix View Post
Can't really say should have lost to RGIII since it was the Redskins defense that beat us the 2nd time. I wasn't impressed with him nearly as much the 2nd game, though I'll give him points for poise.

And the Redskins lost the first game, there is no should of.
Griffin can't cover Cruz on a fly route with 130 to go. Plus he was picking you guys apart, taking us to mid field when Moss fumbled. What more could have he done to 'impress you' that game?

The second game had huge implications and was a tough fought battle. I don't think our D did much in that game, it was more on Eli. He missed w/o WR's regularly and turned the ball over in the redzone twice. If he could fix his consistency he'd be so awesome. He was putting the ball in some sick spots half the time and then erratic the next. That has to be extremely frustrating as a fan. How is he so good in the 4th quarter and big game situations but so off the rest of the time?
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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You can't convince me Luck is out of the OROTY running when the Colts could potentially win 11 games.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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Luck leads the NFL in turnovers and has had another 9 ints dropped. But what I've learned is that he has done it all on his lonesome. He never benefits from his teammates whatsoever, he's made his recievers what they are and he never throws dump offs or has players get YAC. I'm honestly suprised he doesn't lead the league in rushing and recieving the way people talk about him.

He has a whopping ONE win against a team with a winning record and has had to pull 5 games out of his hind quarters (mainly because he's been inconsistent. Of course it was all him that did it, he had no help. He has the juggernaut Chiefs this week and a Texans team that may not have anything to play for but yeah let's not add that context, right? We should only apply context when it seems to benefit Luck.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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And not apply it when arguing against him.
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Damn Alfred Morris is gonna break the redskins single season rushing record if he can get 194 more yards
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Damn Alfred Morris is gonna break the redskins single season rushing record if he can get 194 more yards

It was also quite telling how Much RG3 has done for Morris. It's no coincidence that he looked relatively average against the Browns and our OL as well. The offensive units have all benefitted immensely from RG3. It wasn't a mistake that we used the boot leg so often in that game either.
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:28 PM    (permalink
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And not apply it when arguing against him.

Yep, we've all heard the context, rg3 throws nothing but bubble screens, has all pro's at every position, can't read defenses, can't push the ball down the field, etc. That's not context, it's ridiculous.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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Yeah because SHanny has had multiple 1000+ yard rushers in D.C before this season.
RGIII has nothing at all to do with running lanes opening up on zone reads for Morris.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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It's hilarious how our OL goes from all scrub team with Grossman to all world in one season with two UDFA's starting and a street FA coming off major knee surgery. And funny how all of a sudden we have guys playing at Pro Bowl levels that were border line busts last year. The samething happen in Washington that you've seen in NE, Indy, etc over the years. One player elevating the play of those around him. And don't get me wrong these guys aren't scrubs by any means, but they're playing well above expectation and Griff is a huge part of that.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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It was also quite telling how Much RG3 has done for Morris. It's no coincidence that he looked relatively average against the Browns and our OL as well. The offensive units have all benefitted immensely from RG3. It wasn't a mistake that we used the boot leg so often in that game either.
Or the browns could just have a pretty good defense?
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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It was also quite telling how Much RG3 has done for Morris. It's no coincidence that he looked relatively average against the Browns and our OL as well. The offensive units have all benefitted immensely from RG3. It wasn't a mistake that we used the boot leg so often in that game either.
27 carries, 87 yards, 2 TD's is not bad against a fairly stout Browns run D who was stacking the box and daring Cousins to throw.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend that a mobile QB who threatens defenses off the edge is going to impact his team's running game because he forces LBs to hesitate on run plays and decide whether to key the RB or the QB.

BTW if Torain rushing for 740 yds in 2010 and Helu rushing for 640 in 2011 represents a competent running game, by that standard the 2012 Colts have a dominant running game too.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend that a mobile QB who threatens defenses off the edge is going to impact his team's running game because he forces LBs to hesitate on run plays and decide whether to key the RB or the QB.

BTW if Torain rushing for 740 yds in 2010 and Helu rushing for 640 in 2011 represents a competent running game, by that standard the 2012 Colts have a dominant running game too.
Oh no you dit-nt!
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:51 PM    (permalink
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I think if it ended today, it would be RGIII. Barely. The end of the season is going to determine who it goes to. If Russell Wilson has any chance to get it, the Seahawks must not only win against the 49ers, but they must win because of Russell Wilson. Russell Wilson is getting the biggest stage of the year on Sunday to make his case, and if he has another big game he's going to have an awful lot of momentum. That said, he still might not get it as long as RGIII stays strong and the Redskins make the playoffs, too; if it's a draw through these final two weeks, RGIII's body of work over the entire season should earn him the award.

I think Luck's been fantastic as well, and 3 or 4 weeks ago it was pretty even between him and Griffin. But he's fallen behind while Russell Wilson has surged, and I think Russell Wilson might even have a slight edge on him right now. I think if Russell Wilson wins his next two games and Washington loses, the award could be his. If the OROY award is like a playoff race, I'd say RGIII controls his destiny while Russell Wilson and Luck are still in the hunt, but my feeling is that if it goes to someone other than RGIII it's going to be Russell Wilson.
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Old 12-22-2012, 01:32 AM    (permalink
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I'm honestly shocked but in agreement and I would + Rep you if I could.

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I think if it ended today, it would be RGIII. Barely. The end of the season is going to determine who it goes to. If Russell Wilson has any chance to get it, the Seahawks must not only win against the 49ers, but they must win because of Russell Wilson. Russell Wilson is getting the biggest stage of the year on Sunday to make his case, and if he has another big game he's going to have an awful lot of momentum. That said, he still might not get it as long as RGIII stays strong and the Redskins make the playoffs, too; if it's a draw through these final two weeks, RGIII's body of work over the entire season should earn him the award.

I think Luck's been fantastic as well, and 3 or 4 weeks ago it was pretty even between him and Griffin. But he's fallen behind while Russell Wilson has surged, and I think Russell Wilson might even have a slight edge on him right now. I think if Russell Wilson wins his next two games and Washington loses, the award could be his. If the OROY award is like a playoff race, I'd say RGIII controls his destiny while Russell Wilson and Luck are still in the hunt, but my feeling is that if it goes to someone other than RGIII it's going to be Russell Wilson.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:03 AM    (permalink
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I'm honestly shocked but in agreement and I would + Rep you if I could.
Your shocked that you agree with someone that thinks RGIII will win RoY?


Also, depending on what Russell Wilson does against SF it could have a big bearing in this race.
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:29 AM    (permalink
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Your shocked that you agree with someone that thinks RGIII will win RoY?


Also, depending on what Russell Wilson does against SF it could have a big bearing in this race.
No, i'm shocked his tune has changed despite Luck doing over the last few weeks what he's been doing all season.

And I agree Wilson is Much closer to RG3 than Luck.
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:06 AM    (permalink
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I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend that a mobile QB who threatens defenses off the edge is going to impact his team's running game because he forces LBs to hesitate on run plays and decide whether to key the RB or the QB.

BTW if Torain rushing for 740 yds in 2010 and Helu rushing for 640 in 2011 represents a competent running game, by that standard the 2012 Colts have a dominant running game too.
Come on now that is a ridiculous argument

Torain rushed for 740 but only started 8 games and only played in 10 total. He had 164 carries. Even 250 carries puts him way over 1000

Likewise Helu had 640 off 151 carries. 250 carries puts him over 1000 for the season too.

Morris already has 280 carries. His average is only slightly better than Torain's was. Griffin helps the running game but let's not act like it's only good because of him. Shanahan has always had productive HBs and seldom have any been bonafide stars before they came to his system. RG3 doesn't make Morris successful, that would be the system, just as it was for Slaton and Gary and Bell and Anderson etc
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:50 AM    (permalink
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Wins matter. If Luck's INT's were all that big a deal, why have they won 9 games? Because of that stout defense?
No because they have a garbage schedule. One win over a team with a winning record. When they do play someone decent they get smoked.
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:51 AM    (permalink
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Luck- 2 rookie wide outs, 2 rookie tight ends, rookie RB, no offensive line and turned around a team almost anyone thought would be picking in the top 5 of this years draft and is instead going into the playoffs. Cmon.
And again I say to you the lack of a quality opponent.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:00 AM    (permalink
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How about this try responding in an intelligent manner to ANY of the points below and demonstrate you understand football more so than studying box scores of your favorite team.
  • Explain how Luck isn't asked to do much more than RGIII essentially breaking down how having 564 attempts (Luck) is less of a burden than RGIII having 351 attempts, which happens to be the LOWEST number of attempts of ANY QB in the league who has at least 11 games played. Continuing on this point demonstrate how the Colts 21st ranked (yardage) rushing attack is more helpful than the Redskins 1st ranked rushing attack.
  • Explain how Luck's 12.9 yards per completion mark is less impressive than RGIII's 12.5. Keep in mind that Luck has 75 more completions.
  • Explain why Luck is vastly more proficient at converting 3rd downs compared to RGIII. Continuing on this question explain why RGIII's yards per completion on 3rd and long is less than the yards to go.

The only "end-all" statement for this is what Wog said. If you view the ROY award as a purely statistical argument based only on QBR and TD:INT ratio than of course RGIII is your man. However if you vote based on the individual merits (i.e. MVP) than RGIII is battling Russell Wilson for lowest attempts per game from an NFL QB while Luck walks away with the prize.

You do realize that if you project the attempts per game out through the rest of the year Wilson and RGIII barely break 400 attempts? Luck is projected to be at 645 attempts. You do realize that the rookie pass attempts record which was set by OROY award winner in 2010 Sam Bradford is 590. Luck is on pace to DESTROY that record and you expect him to be more efficient than a player who is driving the bus.
So let me get this straight. You think it's an accomplishment that Luck is going to DESTROY the rookie pass attempt record? Doing so with at 54-55% completion percentage? I put it to you this way. If I throw the ball 100 times and have 10 incompletions compared to you throwing it 50 times with 10 incompletions who wil have the better %? The guy with more throws!! Point is when RG3 throws the ball he makes it count. That's not even counting the ELEVEN drops against Pittsburgh or the 2-3 a game that his receivers drop.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
well, i've seen the light. because of the endless horse-beating, it's clear to me that rg3 is literally the greatest qb in nfl history and andrew luck should probably be cut tomorrow. i'm not really even sure how luck made an nfl roster. i mean, he's actually worse than a hypothetical qb with blaine gabbert's courage, patrick ramsey's accuracy, ken dorsey's arm strength and jamarcus russell's intelligence. he's just lucky that the rest of his team is completely responsible for bailing him out on every throw and in every game, or the colts would probably be winless. if only rg3 had as much talent surrounding him... and that's not even talking about how much better the colts coaching staff is.

but really, how anyone can think andrew luck is playing any better than a random fan the colts might pull out of the stands is beyond me. he's the physical incarnation of terrible qb play.
And that's where everyone goes with this debate. NO ONE said Luck was terrible. It's a common piss poor defense to make yourself look funny when in turn no one implied it. Right away everyone wants to jump on one of these QBs cuz history says one has to bust. The problem is Luck fans will right away throw stats out the window and use the W/L record. When RG3 fans do the same the Luck fans bring up stats. It's a never ending **** show.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
Come on now that is a ridiculous argument

Torain rushed for 740 but only started 8 games and only played in 10 total. He had 164 carries. Even 250 carries puts him way over 1000

Likewise Helu had 640 off 151 carries. 250 carries puts him over 1000 for the season too.

Morris already has 280 carries. His average is only slightly better than Torain's was. Griffin helps the running game but let's not act like it's only good because of him. Shanahan has always had productive HBs and seldom have any been bonafide stars before they came to his system. RG3 doesn't make Morris successful, that would be the system, just as it was for Slaton and Gary and Bell and Anderson etc
Torain is injury prone. He had a career flourish in 2010 but I still don't believe the SKins have the kind of Oline even coached under Mike SHanahan that's going to spring a RB for 1K+ yards. Helu and Torain had many games where they were flat out stonewalled.

Running the zone read out of the pistol has had a major impact on the Skins rushing totals, mainly because the QB is viewed by most opponents as a devastating runner in his own right.

It's just disingenuous to suggest the Skins have the #1 rushing attack in the NFL and not take into account the impact RGIII's presence in the backfield has had on the SKins running game.

Njx9 talks as if the SKins have always had a dominant run game under Shanny and that's simply not true.

Our oline hasn't significantly upgraded from 2010. Robert Morris is still probably at best a 4.6 RB and is never going to break out for a 60+ yard TD.
However all the parts mesh because of RG3, his Houdini play fakes, and his ability to keep the ball himself and run to daylight.

Shanny isn't running his textbook ZBS/WCO, in part because the talent up front in the trenches just isn't there. In the NFCE to run the ZBS effectively you need athletic, mobile Olineman AND guys who can anchor against the pass rush. He doesn't have that yet.

BTW, RG3 IS the system in D.C. If Cousins were the regular starter, it would be much easier to defend the SKins on run downs. Defenders wouldn't be responsible for strict backside contain because the QB might keep the ball and peel around for a 40 yard keeper.

RG3 impacts everything the Skins do on offense, including the running game.
His value to the Skins offense can't be overstated.

Remember Morris is on track to rush for 1500 yards as a rookie. Some of that is talent. Some of that is scheme, but the scheme itself totally revolves around and has been modified to perfectly fit RG3's talents as a football player and QB.
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