Poll: Rookie of the Year (week 16)

[tmljeh19]

Originally Posted by Bob Sanders Dreadlock

Luck- 2 rookie wide outs, 2 rookie tight ends, rookie RB, no offensive line and turned around a team almost anyone thought would be picking in the top 5 of this years draft and is instead going into the playoffs. Cmon.

And again I say to you the lack of a quality opponent.

[tmljeh19]

Originally Posted by Trogdor

How about this try responding in an intelligent manner to ANY of the points below and demonstrate you understand football more so than studying box scores of your favorite team.

• Explain how Luck isn't asked to do much more than RGIII essentially breaking down how having 564 attempts (Luck) is less of a burden than RGIII having 351 attempts, which happens to be the LOWEST number of attempts of ANY QB in the league who has at least 11 games played. Continuing on this point demonstrate how the Colts 21st ranked (yardage) rushing attack is more helpful than the Redskins 1st ranked rushing attack.
  
• Explain how Luck's 12.9 yards per completion mark is less impressive than RGIII's 12.5. Keep in mind that Luck has 75 more completions.
  
• Explain why Luck is vastly more proficient at converting 3rd downs compared to RGIII. Continuing on this question explain why RGIII's yards per completion on 3rd and long is less than the yards to go.

The only "end-all" statement for this is what Wog said. If you view the ROY award as a purely statistical argument based only on QBR and TD:INT ratio than of course RGIII is your man. However if you vote based on the individual merits (i.e. MVP) than RGIII is battling Russell Wilson for lowest attempts per game from an NFL QB while Luck walks away with the prize.

You do realize that if you project the attempts per game out through the rest of the year Wilson and RGIII barely break 400 attempts? Luck is projected to be at 645 attempts. You do realize that the rookie pass attempts record which was set by OROY award winner in 2010 Sam Bradford is 590. Luck is on pace to DESTROY that record and you expect him to be more efficient than a player who is driving the bus.

So let me get this straight. You think it's an accomplishment that Luck is going to DESTROY the rookie pass attempt record? Doing so with at 54-55% completion percentage? I put it to you this way. If I throw the ball 100 times and have 10 incompletions compared to you throwing it 50 times with 10 incompletions who wil have the better %? The guy with more throws!! Point is when RG3 throws the ball he makes it count. That's not even counting the ELEVEN drops against Pittsburgh or the 2-3 a game that his receivers drop.

[tmljeh19]

Originally Posted by njx9

well, i've seen the light. because of the endless horse-beating, it's clear to me that rg3 is literally the greatest qb in nfl history and andrew luck should probably be cut tomorrow. i'm not really even sure how luck made an nfl roster. i mean, he's actually worse than a hypothetical qb with blaine gabbert's courage, patrick ramsey's accuracy, ken dorsey's arm strength and jamarcus russell's intelligence. he's just lucky that the rest of his team is completely responsible for bailing him out on every throw and in every game, or the colts would probably be winless. if only rg3 had as much talent surrounding him... and that's not even talking about how much better the colts coaching staff is.

but really, how anyone can think andrew luck is playing any better than a random fan the colts might pull out of the stands is beyond me. he's the physical incarnation of terrible qb play.

And that's where everyone goes with this debate. NO ONE said Luck was terrible. It's a common piss poor defense to make yourself look funny when in turn no one implied it. Right away everyone wants to jump on one of these QBs cuz history says one has to bust. The problem is Luck fans will right away throw stats out the window and use the W/L record. When RG3 fans do the same the Luck fans bring up stats. It's a never ending **** show.

[FUNBUNCHER]

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

Come on now that is a ridiculous argument

Torain rushed for 740 but only started 8 games and only played in 10 total. He had 164 carries. Even 250 carries puts him way over 1000

Likewise Helu had 640 off 151 carries. 250 carries puts him over 1000 for the season too.

Morris already has 280 carries. His average is only slightly better than Torain's was. Griffin helps the running game but let's not act like it's only good because of him. Shanahan has always had productive HBs and seldom have any been bonafide stars before they came to his system. RG3 doesn't make Morris successful, that would be the system, just as it was for Slaton and Gary and Bell and Anderson etc

Torain is injury prone. He had a career flourish in 2010 but I still don't believe the SKins have the kind of Oline even coached under Mike SHanahan that's going to spring a RB for 1K+ yards. Helu and Torain had many games where they were flat out stonewalled.

Running the zone read out of the pistol has had a major impact on the Skins rushing totals, mainly because the QB is viewed by most opponents as a devastating runner in his own right.

It's just disingenuous to suggest the Skins have the #1 rushing attack in the NFL and not take into account the impact RGIII's presence in the backfield has had on the SKins running game.

Njx9 talks as if the SKins have always had a dominant run game under Shanny and that's simply not true.

Our oline hasn't significantly upgraded from 2010. Robert Morris is still probably at best a 4.6 RB and is never going to break out for a 60+ yard TD.
However all the parts mesh because of RG3, his Houdini play fakes, and his ability to keep the ball himself and run to daylight.

Shanny isn't running his textbook ZBS/WCO, in part because the talent up front in the trenches just isn't there. In the NFCE to run the ZBS effectively you need athletic, mobile Olineman AND guys who can anchor against the pass rush. He doesn't have that yet.

BTW, RG3 IS the system in D.C. If Cousins were the regular starter, it would be much easier to defend the SKins on run downs. Defenders wouldn't be responsible for strict backside contain because the QB might keep the ball and peel around for a 40 yard keeper.

RG3 impacts everything the Skins do on offense, including the running game.
His value to the Skins offense can't be overstated.

Remember Morris is on track to rush for 1500 yards as a rookie. Some of that is talent. Some of that is scheme, but the scheme itself totally revolves around and has been modified to perfectly fit RG3's talents as a football player and QB.

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

Torain is injury prone. He had a career flourish in 2010 but I still don't believe the SKins have the kind of Oline even coached under Mike SHanahan that's going to spring a RB for 1K+ yards. Helu and Torain had many games where they were flat out stonewalled.

Running the zone read out of the pistol has had a major impact on the Skins rushing totals, mainly because the QB is viewed by most opponents as a devastating runner in his own right.

It's just disingenuous to suggest the Skins have the #1 rushing attack in the NFL and not take into account the impact RGIII's presence in the backfield has had on the SKins running game.

Njx9 talks as if the SKins have always had a dominant run game under Shanny and that's simply not true.

Our oline hasn't significantly upgraded from 2010. Robert Morris is still probably at best a 4.6 RB and is never going to break out for a 60+ yard TD.
However all the parts mesh because of RG3, his Houdini play fakes, and his ability to keep the ball himself and run to daylight.

Shanny isn't running his textbook ZBS/WCO, in part because the talent up front in the trenches just isn't there. In the NFCE to run the ZBS effectively you need athletic, mobile Olineman AND guys who can anchor against the pass rush. He doesn't have that yet.

BTW, RG3 IS the system in D.C. If Cousins were the regular starter, it would be much easier to defend the SKins on run downs. Defenders wouldn't be responsible for strict backside contain because the QB might keep the ball and peel around for a 40 yard keeper.

RG3 impacts everything the Skins do on offense, including the running game.
His value to the Skins offense can't be overstated.

Remember Morris is on track to rush for 1500 yards as a rookie. Much of that is talent. Some of that is scheme, but the scheme itself totally revolves around and has been modified to perfectly fit RG3's talents as a football player and QB.

I'm not denying that RG3 positively affects the run game, but it's not a good argument to make to say he is the reason why the Skins are running so well, when even the last few years they have had a good running game. Griffin has made them a great running game however some of the talk in this thread is as though the Redskins the last few years have been the worst rushing team in the league which isn't true.

[FUNBUNCHER]

I don't know the stats but the Skins haven't been able to run the ball like this since they had OT Chris Samuels and Clinton Portis.

Besides you're killing my argument that RG3 is a messianic type figure who's elevating the play of the entire franchise, including special teams!!

(Only slightly sarcastic.)

[Bob Sanders Dreadlock]

Originally Posted by tmljeh19

And again I say to you the lack of a quality opponent.

Like the division leading green bay packers?

[falloutboy14]

Originally Posted by tmljeh19

One win over a team with a winning record.

Originally Posted by jsagan77

He has a whopping ONE win against a team with a winning record

The Colts have beaten both the Vikings (8-6) & Packers (10-4), and I can assure you that Luck played in both games to their completion.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

BTW if Torain rushing for 740 yds in 2010 and Helu rushing for 640 in 2011 represents a competent running game, by that standard the 2012 Colts have a dominant running game too.

which is cool and all until you remember the number of games they did that in. but no, totally misrepresent those numbers as if they ran for that many yards in an entire season. it's no different than the crap redskins fans have been bringing to the rest of this worthless thread.

Originally Posted by tmljeh19

And that's where everyone goes with this debate. NO ONE said Luck was terrible. It's a common piss poor defense to make yourself look funny when in turn no one implied it. Right away everyone wants to jump on one of these QBs cuz history says one has to bust. The problem is Luck fans will right away throw stats out the window and use the W/L record. When RG3 fans do the same the Luck fans bring up stats. It's a never ending **** show.

oh ******* stop it. the HEAVY implication throughout every part of this thread by one person is that luck is terrible. but it's cool. you're just another sockpuppet, so i shouldn't be surprised you didn't notice.

[tmljeh19]

Originally Posted by Bob Sanders Dreadlock

Like the division leading green bay packers?

EXACTLY! That was their only win over an opponent with a winning record. Thanks for proving my point bro!

[killxswitch]

Originally Posted by tmljeh19

EXACTLY! That was their only win over an opponent with a winning record. Thanks for proving my point bro!

Except it's not. But don't let facts get in the way of your agenda.

[tmljeh19]

Originally Posted by njx9

oh ******* stop it. the HEAVY implication throughout every part of this thread by one person is that luck is terrible. but it's cool. you're just another sockpuppet, so i shouldn't be surprised you didn't notice.

I never said that so feel free to keep ranting about pointless ********. Meanwhile no one EVER said Luck sucks. Please point out where anyone has. Ill wait....

[tmljeh19]

Originally Posted by killxswitch

Except it's not. But don't let facts get in the way of your agenda.

SOOOOOO by beating the Packers which was the only team with a winning record you didnt prove my point? Ok guy, whatever you say!

[tmljeh19]

Originally Posted by falloutboy14

The Colts have beaten both the Vikings (8-6) & Packers (10-4), and I can assure you that Luck played in both games to their completion.

Yes they played the 1-0 Vikings coming off the Vikings win over the powerhouse know as the Jaguars.

[killxswitch]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

BTW if Torain rushing for 740 yds in 2010 and Helu rushing for 640 in 2011 represents a competent running game, by that standard the 2012 Colts have a dominant running game too.

This is a ban-worthy argument. But then this is typical of RG3 nuthuggers in this thread. Use stats when it's convenient and then criticize their use when it hurts your agenda. Hold context and "actually watching the games" when it props up RG3, but demand objective stats and ignore context when it helps Luck. Use terrible arguments, then ignore it when people call you out on it. I don't know why anyone with an ounce of rational thought is even bothering to respond to you trolls anymore.

[killxswitch]

Originally Posted by tmljeh19

SOOOOOO by beating the Packers which was the only team with a winning record you didnt prove my point? Ok guy, whatever you say!

Yeah just ignore it again that you tried to pass off a lie to support your point. Pathetic.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by tmljeh19

I never said that so feel free to keep ranting about pointless ********. Meanwhile no one EVER said Luck sucks. Please point out where anyone has. Ill wait....

you never said... what, specifically? did you read my post, or are you just going to continue blindly repeating the same asinine point you first tried to make?

[jsagan77]

5 of RG3's victories have come against teams with a winning record.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

5 of RG3's victories have come against teams with a winning record.

minnesota, dallas, new york, and baltimore.

the saints are 6-8. the bucs are 6-8. the eagles are 4-10. and the browns are 5-9.

the redskins have 8 wins.

do you have problems with counting, or is it just an issue with telling the truth?

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by njx9

minnesota, dallas, new york, and baltimore.

the saints are 6-8. the bucs are 6-8. the eagles are 4-10. and the browns are 5-9.

the redskins have 8 wins.

do you have problems with counting, or is it just an issue with telling the truth?

Jsagan telling lies??? Never. I totally believe that he owns a successful company and posts when he's driving. That's probably why he made that teeny weeny little mistake. It's hard to concentrate on stupid stuff like basic counting when you are preparing to go into Forbes rich list

[jsagan77]

This thread is wreaking of dumbassery.

Are we using stats? Or subjective analisys? I don't think you'll find one person in the RG3 camp that doesn't want to. The stats in this case tell the tale very well. The Luck guys don't like stats (except for the most absurd ones) because ogmf this fact.

Do you know why poker players, businesses, and pretty much every organization use Stats? Because that's the best way to objectively judge decision making as to what works and what doesn't by taking the human factor out of the equation. Granted Football isn't a perfect science and context is generally added to make up for inconsistencies in the story, but in this case the stats are very telling and paint a relatively clear picture of each rookies season this year.

And none of these guys suck. The thing that seperates them is one guy is playing like a seasoned vet and the other simply isn't. You can make up all the excuses, thrown in arguments for scheme and whose asked to do more but at the end of the day the stats cannot be ignored and neither can the fact that in other years all these guys would be deserving, but this year, one guy is not only playing at a pro bowl level vet out of the gate, he's having quite possibly the finest rookie season in the history of the sport. There's no shame in losing to that at all IMO.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

This thread is wreaking of dumbassery.

i agree and expect a full retraction of the two blatant lies you've posted. but then, that would be expecting some vague degree of integrity and honesty, so i expect to be waiting a fairly long time.

[vidae]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

he's having quite possibly the finest rookie season in the history of the sport.

The homer is strong in this one.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by njx9

minnesota, dallas, new york, and baltimore.

the saints are 6-8. the bucs are 6-8. the eagles are 4-10. and the browns are 5-9.

the redskins have 8 wins.

do you have problems with counting, or is it just an issue with telling the truth?

The Bucs had a winning record when they beat them.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by njx9

i agree and expect a full retraction of the two blatant lies you've posted. but then, that would be expecting some vague degree of integrity and honesty, so i expect to be waiting a fairly long time.

Yeah mistakes are lies, I forgot Minny had gone on a tear and the Bucs had a winning record when the skins played them so go ahead and retract your previous statement.