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Old 12-29-2012, 03:05 AM    (permalink
Ness
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Emmit Smith also had fantastic blocking for the majority of his career though.

It's the same for receivers. Having good quarterbacks consistently will bring the big time numbers.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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SJax looks fresh and healthy this year and has plenty left in the tank. He stays in unreal shape year round. He's a freak. Imagine 3-4 more 1000+ yards? That could get him in the HOF discussion. If he had played on a better team he would be easily a HOF. I think he's better than Bettis easily and Bettis is being considered.
I really do not care how many yards he gets he has never been an elite back. Big career yards are not necessarily a good indicator of a great back example Jerome Bettis.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:40 AM    (permalink
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Good to great running back for a while, not HoF. And to be fair he is a victim of circumstance, he played on a mediocre team for much of his career with pretty bad offensive lines/offenses. That being said 14 more TDs and 4000 yards puts him near Curtis Martin's stats so maybe, it really depends on if he plays for the next few years and what he does. As of right now, no, a couple more years and he is borderline IMO.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:01 AM    (permalink
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I really do not care how many yards he gets he has never been an elite back. Big career yards are not necessarily a good indicator of a great back example Jerome Bettis.
Bettis will be in the HOF. I think his uniqueness is that for a 250# RB he had the foot quickness and lateral agility of a 215# RB.

RBs get massive credit for career numbers because the nature of the position doesn't really allow guys to play longer than or be productive for more than 5-7 years.
No position takes more physical abuse per carry than an NFL RB. Style points are great, but toughness, endurance and durability for a RB are HOF traits too.

You can look somewhat 'boring' on game tape and still be a HOF RB.

Steven Jackson statistically may not seem like an elite RB, until he plays against your team. There's always going to be a moment in the game where he shows rare burst for a RB his size, or he just trucks a defender one on one. The numbers may not be there, but Jackson IMO is not a 'normal' RB, which is a great place to start when you begin putting together a Canton level resume for a player.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Bettis will be in the HOF. I think his uniqueness is that for a 250# RB he had the foot quickness and lateral agility of a 215# RB.

RBs get massive credit for career numbers because the nature of the position doesn't really allow guys to play longer than or be productive for more than 5-7 years.
No position takes more physical abuse per carry than an NFL RB. Style points are great, but toughness, endurance and durability for a RB are HOF traits too.

You can look somewhat 'boring' on game tape and still be a HOF RB.

Steven Jackson statistically may not seem like an elite RB, until he plays against your team. There's always going to be a moment in the game where he shows rare burst for a RB his size, or he just trucks a defender one on one. The numbers may not be there, but Jackson IMO is not a 'normal' RB, which is a great place to start when you begin putting together a Canton level resume for a player.
Bettis should not be in the Hall of Fame he was never an elite back. Just because one rb has a longer career then another does make that rb great or better then a rb with a shorter career. Fred Taylor played as many seasons as Walter Payton I guess he must be just as good according to you.Nothing in your second paragraph makes sense. How does playing against a team prove he is an elite rb? Why is he not a normal rb? What makes him special?

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Old 01-04-2013, 08:13 PM    (permalink
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No.

But he's infinitely better than ******* Terrell Davis. It's hilarious to me how people still don't get that Davis was a product of the Broncos' blocking scheme.

How many 1500+ yard backs does Shanahan have to produce for people to see that Davis's highlights feature him jogging through gaping holes because it really was that easy?

I mean, Alfred Morris just did 1613 on 4.8 per carry this year. Terrell Davis would be like, "nice season, bro."

Mike Shanahan is the one who needs to be put in the HOF ASAP.

Jackson's been unfortunate to have played on such bad teams over the years.

Oh, and Ness deserves to be shot for his Garrison Hearst - Curtis Martin comparison. Martin quietly put up the yards. Hearst was one of the greatest talents at the position the game has ever seen - he just couldn't stay healthy. Hearst was anything but a quiet producer - he was the best power-slasher since Billy Sims.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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Both Walter Payton and Fred Taylor played 13 seasons in the NFL. But Payton had over 1300 more carries.

And I was pointing out that if usually when you watch Steven Jackson play, he does things on the field physically that most backs can't do. It's been true throughout most of his career. I don't know how much that applies to this past season however.

There are very few RBs who've had short careers who are considered 'great'.

A long, productive career at the RB position where a RB hits certain career numbers, and in many cases wins a SB, is enough for almost any RB to make it to Canton.

Only 7 RBs in the history of the NFL have ever rushed for more than 13K in a career. Bettis is number 6 on that list. One of the best big RBs to ever play the game.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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Was Clinton Portis an invention of Mike Shanahan???
THe ZBS really benefits RBs who are pure instinctive runners allowing them to use their vision to pick holes on cutback runs. But the skillset doesn't change what makes a RB a great runner. It merely highlights and features those skills to an even greater degree and magnifies them.

IMO most of Shanny's top backs would have been productive on other teams. I don't know if TD would have had a 2K season for the Bengals, but I don't think it's a stretch to believe he could have run for 1300-1600 yards.

The ZBS is RB friendly, but I've also seen RBs look like total crap trying to run it because they don't have vision.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Was Clinton Portis an invention of Mike Shanahan???
THe ZBS really benefits RBs who are pure instinctive runners allowing them to use their vision to pick holes on cutback runs. But the skillset doesn't change what makes a RB a great runner. It merely highlights and features those skills to an even greater degree and magnifies them.

IMO most of Shanny's top backs would have been productive on other teams. I don't know if TD would have had a 2K season for the Bengals, but I don't think it's a stretch to believe he could have run for 1300-1600 yards.

The ZBS is RB friendly, but I've also seen RBs look like total crap trying to run it because they don't have vision.
Portis benefited enormously. He was a good back, but not to the tune of 1591 yards on 5.5 per carry in only 13 games (2003), as he was in Denver.

Mike Anderson had 1487 (or 1500, depending on the source), on 5.0 yards/carry in 2000, and that was in only 14 games (and in 1 of those games, he only carried 1 time for 3 yards). So basically...1484 yards in 13 games, which projects to 1826 for a full season.

Then you've got the likes of Tatum Bell and Reuben Droughns. Shanahan just has too long and extensive a history of getting big production out of day 2 running backs. If he didn't know how good he was at scheming for the running game, I doubt he would've traded Portis for Champ Bailey after the 2003 season.

Selvin Young and Andre Hall also had big averages with a smaller sample size.

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:13 PM    (permalink
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Was Clinton Portis an invention of Mike Shanahan???
THe ZBS really benefits RBs who are pure instinctive runners allowing them to use their vision to pick holes on cutback runs. But the skillset doesn't change what makes a RB a great runner. It merely highlights and features those skills to an even greater degree and magnifies them.

IMO most of Shanny's top backs would have been productive on other teams. I don't know if TD would have had a 2K season for the Bengals, but I don't think it's a stretch to believe he could have run for 1300-1600 yards.

The ZBS is RB friendly, but I've also seen RBs look like total crap trying to run it because they don't have vision.
Clinton Portis and Terrell Davis were talented players that were put in great systems. Shanahan really had a luxury with both of those guys.
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:06 AM    (permalink
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I doubt he catches AD after Peterson finishes with his projected 1,900+ yard rushing season this year, but I think all CJ has to do is keep it close and voters will value that despite AD being the consistently better player throughout their careers, he could never exceed what CJ did in 2009.
I dont know why you brought Chris Johnson into the discussion, but consider the 2009 season exceeded. He'll have to score 30 TDs next year to tie Petersons total TDs after 6 seasons.


Jackson's career rushing numbers (9 seasons) are as follows:

10,135 rushing yards (4.2 Avg), 56 TDs.

Terrell Davis ran for 6,413 yards (4.7 Avg) and 58 TDs in 4 years.

And if you include the playoffs, then Davis had 70 rushing TDs in 4 years to go along with 7,553 rushing yards.

Steven Jackson had Hall of Fame potential, but he never had an opportunity to sustain any level of greatness due to the franchise he played for. Tough luck. His 2006 season was Hall of Fame excellence. His talent and ability to be special was there, but there is no place in the Hall of Fame for Steven Jackson. We can wonder what his stats would look like if he was on a better team, but your stats, generally speaking, do define the you when your careers is over.

There's no excuses or exceptions. There's no blame game or what-if scenarios. It's black and white. He's not a Hall of Fame player and he certainly doesn't have the stats to prove it.

I point to Terrell Davis. Davis was one of the best players in football for four consecutive seasons. He put up gaudy numbers that takes some players almost 10 years to replicate. He still doesn't have Hall of Fame stats, but he was a great player and he's arguably the only reason why John Elway has a Super Bowl ring, let alone two. I put Terrell Davis in the Hall of Fame without hesitation.
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:26 AM    (permalink
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I point to Terrell Davis. Davis was one of the best players in football for four consecutive seasons. He put up gaudy numbers that takes some players almost 10 years to replicate. He still doesn't have Hall of Fame stats, but he was a great player and he's arguably the only reason why John Elway has a Super Bowl ring, let alone two. I put Terrell Davis in the Hall of Fame without hesitation.
He'd be in if he didn't hurt his knee. Davis was a soldier. He essentially had a Hall of Fame career during the time he played.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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He'd be in if he didn't hurt his knee. Davis was a soldier. He essentially had a Hall of Fame career during the time he played.
What I wish people would also take into consideration Davis' playoff stats.
He was a freakin beast in the postseason.

And to whoever was saying its all the product of the system, okay yeah right. Because its so easy to rush for 6,000 yards with 60 TD's in 4 seasons, along with another 1,000+ and 10+ TD's in postseason games during that stretch
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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What I wish people would also take into consideration Davis' playoff stats.
He was a freakin beast in the postseason.

And to whoever was saying its all the product of the system, okay yeah right. Because its so easy to rush for 6,000 yards with 60 TD's in 4 seasons, along with another 1,000+ and 10+ TD's in postseason games during that stretch



Olandis Gary: 1159 yards and 7 TDs in 12 games (projects to 1545 yards for 16 games).

Mike Anderson: 1487 yards and 15 TDs in 14 games (subtracting 1 game played where he had only 1 carry for 3 yards, that's 1484 in 13...projects to 1826 yards for 16 games).

Clinton Portis: 1508 yards and 15 TDs in 2002, 1591 yards and 14 TDs in 13 games in 2003 (projects to 1958 yards for 16 games).

Reuben Droughns: 1240 yards and 6 TDs in 14 games. One game only carried the ball 2 times for 10 yards. 1230 yards in 13 games. Projects to 1514 yards for 16 games.

Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell in 2005:

Anderson: 1014 yards and 12 TDs in 15 games.
Bell: 921 yards and 8 TDs in 15 games.


Bell again in 2006: 1025 yards in 13 games. Projects to 1262 for 16. MIKE Bell added 677 and 8 TDs that season.

Selvin Young: 729 yards on 5.2 yards/carry in 2007. Combined with Travis Henry and Andre Hall to lead the Broncos to the 9th ranked rushing attack (5th in yards per rush) that season.

2008 Broncos: 3rd in the NFL in yards per rush with the combination of Michael Pittman, Peyton Hillis, Selvin Young, Tatum Bell, Andre Hall, P.J. Pope, Ryan Torrain.


Alfred Morris: 1613 yards and 13 TDs.


Alfred Morris: 6th round pick (173rd overall)
Terrell Davis: 6th round pick (196th overall)
Mike Anderson: 6th round pick (189th overall)
Olandis Gary: 4th round pick (127th overall)
Selvin Young: Undrafted free agent
Andre Hall: Undrafted free agent
Mike Bell: Undrafted free agent
Clinton Portis: 2nd round pick (51st overall)
Reuben Droughns: 3rd round pick (81st overall)
Tatum Bell: 2nd round pick (41st overall)

So how did this happen? If you notice, Portis is the only one who did anything elsewhere (and not nearly to the extent of what he was doing in Denver)...aside from Droughns having one decent year with Cleveland (that still pales in comparison to what he was doing in Denver in 2004).

In Denver, Portis averaged 5.5 yards/carry in back to back seasons. In Washington, his career high was 4.3.

Ignoring all of that...for Shanahan to keep running the ball like this, it must be one of two things.

Either A: The blocking scheme/system

or

B: Shanahan is just so brilliant with evaluating running back talent that he can find late round picks and undrafted free agents who will be among the league leaders in rushing yards because they're just that good.

Well, B seems quite unlikely when you learn that Mike Shanahan called Kevan Barlow the best running back in the 2001 draft. The 2001 draft included someone named LaDainian Tomlinson, in case you forget.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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Shanahan does make a ton of good running backs look great, but TD was an elite player and played like a HoFer in the system and not one of those guys even touches how good he was in those years. You are just reading off stats and projecting. Actually watching TD play you could see how good he was. Not one of those players were of the same caliber of TD.

Argue if his short brilliance is enough to warrant a HoF discussion, but Davis' talent, production, and achievements are unquestionable. He
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:55 PM    (permalink
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What I wish people would also take into consideration Davis' playoff stats.
He was a freakin beast in the postseason.

And to whoever was saying its all the product of the system, okay yeah right. Because its so easy to rush for 6,000 yards with 60 TD's in 4 seasons, along with another 1,000+ and 10+ TD's in postseason games during that stretch
Yes, Davis was one of the best postseason backs ever and truly dominated.

And if anyone thinks Davis was a fraud masked by a system those folks just don't know what they're talking about.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Shanahan does make a ton of good running backs look great, but TD was an elite player and played like a HoFer in the system and not one of those guys even touches how good he was in those years. You are just reading off stats and projecting. Actually watching TD play you could see how good he was. Not one of those players were of the same caliber of TD.

Argue if his short brilliance is enough to warrant a HoF discussion, but Davis' talent, production, and achievements are unquestionable. He
No, you really couldn't. Davis didn't do anything at an elite level. He ran through gaping holes...like every other back who came through there, it was one cut and go. You just wait for the huge hole to open up and cut back to wide open daylight.

He had no moves, average power, no speed.

And if anybody tries to make the "durability" argument I'm going to laugh hysterically. Davis lasted just 4 years.

Davis wasn't even the best back in Super Bowl XXXIII (Jamal Anderson).
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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JT, don't you ever get sick of being wrong?
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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The reason IMO SHanahan RBs hardly ever went on to have stellar success for other teams is because SHanahan basically ran the hell out of his backs and used them up.

RB is a position as proven by Shanahan that possesses great depth in almost every draft. It's not all the system. Shanny values burst, quickness and vision more than 40 times for RBs.
Shanahan constantly has reminded us there's a HUGE difference between game speed and timed speed.

I don't know how someone can dismiss Shanahan's ability to find constantly RBs who rush for 1200+ yards as just 'lucky' or the system.

I've seen enough coverage of SKins training camps under Shanahan to know there are more backs who are failures running the ZBS than those who are stars.

The 'gaping holes' in a ZBS are cutback lanes behind the Oline blocks. EIther a back sees these cutback opportunities or he doesn't. Let's not assume all RBs have vision, because many of them do not. More often than not TD made the right decision on which hole to hit and IMO made his Oline look better than it actually was.

Terrell Davis was IMO the best RB in the league for 4 years. He had it all. He had a wicked spin move that Peterson has copied, and really had no weaknesses as a RB.
Great RB in a great system.

No moves?? No power?? No speed??

Come on dude. Now you're trolling.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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Both Walter Payton and Fred Taylor played 13 seasons in the NFL. But Payton had over 1300 more carries.

And I was pointing out that if usually when you watch Steven Jackson play, he does things on the field physically that most backs can't do. It's been true throughout most of his career. I don't know how much that applies to this past season however.

There are very few RBs who've had short careers who are considered 'great'.

A long, productive career at the RB position where a RB hits certain career numbers, and in many cases wins a SB, is enough for almost any RB to make it to Canton.

Only 7 RBs in the history of the NFL have ever rushed for more than 13K in a career. Bettis is number 6 on that list. One of the best big RBs to ever play the game.
There are many rbs who have had long careers who are not considered great. There is no milestone to get in the Hall of Fame in football like in baseball.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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There are many rbs who have had long careers who are not considered great. There is no milestone to get in the Hall of Fame in football like in baseball.

Except for Gale Sayers, there are no HOF RBs who didn't have long - 9+ years - careers.

There may be no 'official' career numbers for QBs/RBs/WRs, but when you are compared to your potential peers in the HOF, one of the first measures is stats.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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I think Mike Shanahan said it best: "We don't have no Terrell Davis we don't have no Super Bowls".
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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JT, don't you ever get sick of being wrong?
Why do you insist on cluttering threads I participate in with your stupidity? Take your one-liner idiocy and shove it directly up your ass.

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Old 01-06-2013, 12:15 AM    (permalink
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The reason IMO SHanahan RBs hardly ever went on to have stellar success for other teams is because SHanahan basically ran the hell out of his backs and used them up.
Huh?

Most of these backs had just 1-2 years playing for him. Tatum Bell, Mike Bell, Reuben Droughns, Mike Anderson, Olandis Gary...how were these guys used up?


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RB is a position as proven by Shanahan that possesses great depth in almost every draft. It's not all the system. Shanny values burst, quickness and vision more than 40 times for RBs.
You're starting to sound like the Welker fans here.

Davis didn't have burst or quickness, and "vision" is another example of an intangible people ascribe to a player when they want to justify his production but can't come up with any actual physical attributes.


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Shanahan constantly has reminded us there's a HUGE difference between game speed and timed speed.
There really isn't. As someone who has helped coach 9 year olds before, I can tell you that the fastest players without pads are almost invariably the fastest players with pads.

There's a difference between quickness and speed, and that's where most people get confused.

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I don't know how someone can dismiss Shanahan's ability to find constantly RBs who rush for 1200+ yards as just 'lucky' or the system.
What do you think it is? Do you think Shanahan is some brilliant scout? Shanahan said that Kevan Barlow was the best back in the 2001 draft...a draft that included LaDainian Tomlinson.

It's his scheme that produces the rushing yardage.

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I've seen enough coverage of SKins training camps under Shanahan to know there are more backs who are failures running the ZBS than those who are stars.

The 'gaping holes' in a ZBS are cutback lanes behind the Oline blocks. EIther a back sees these cutback opportunities or he doesn't. Let's not assume all RBs have vision, because many of them do not. More often than not TD made the right decision on which hole to hit and IMO made his Oline look better than it actually was.
That's a load of crap. If there's a big hole, that's where the back is going to go nearly every time. I have found that I can freeze any running play upon the hand off and the first step and predict with 95+% accuracy where the running back is going to go.



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Terrell Davis was IMO the best RB in the league for 4 years. He had it all. He had a wicked spin move that Peterson has copied, and really had no weaknesses as a RB.
Great RB in a great system.

No moves?? No power?? No speed??

Come on dude. Now you're trolling.
You're just talking out your ass right now. Terrell Davis was never an elusive runner. Not even remotely. He was a straight line, downhill guy. You probably saw a single highlight on some NFL films thing of him making a spin move and projected that to his game as a whole. I'm pretty sure I know which one it is, too. Against the Packers in the Super Bowl.

He was a 6th round pick. From Georgia. If he had all this talent you claim, he would not have fallen that far. They had a recent history of Herschel Walker, Rodney Hampton, and Garrison Hearst. It was Running Back U. Yet there was Davis, sitting there in the late 6th. The scouts got plenty of looks at him and were thoroughly unimpressed. And for good reason - he wasn't a great back.

Aaron Craver had 20 carries for 108 yards subbing for Davis in the season finale in 1995. Just thought I'd throw that out there in addition to everything else. The evidence is absolutely overwhelming.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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I dont know why you brought Chris Johnson into the discussion, but consider the 2009 season exceeded. He'll have to score 30 TDs next year to tie Petersons total TDs after 6 seasons.
Really?

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The only active RB's who have a shot are Adrian Peterson and Chris Johnson.

History will show Peterson to be the consensus superior RB between the two, especially given how he's had to deal with injuries and CJ hasn't, but they'll still see CJ as a special player who recorded one of the all time best seasons by a RB. Both have been the best at their position at one point in their career, which is big. Barring injury, AD is set to break the 10,000 yard mark at the end of only his 7th season, and CJ will probably do it in the middle of his 8th season. Peterson is having just a monster year that in all likelihood will leave CJ in the dust (He has a shot at 2,000 yards as well), but after their first 4 seasons respectively, AD has 5,782 yards to CJ's 5,645 yards, a difference of only 137 yards, and CJ only needs 70 more yards in 3 games to pass AD for the most yards in their first 5 seasons. I doubt he catches AD after Peterson finishes with his projected 1,900+ yard rushing season this year, but I think all CJ has to do is keep it close and voters will value that despite AD being the consistently better player throughout their careers, he could never exceed what CJ did in 2009.
That's my full post, and I even bolded the reason why I brought CJ up. Not sure how you missed that when you were cutting my post.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with throwing CJ's name out into the discussion, if that's what you're getting at. He's not Peterson, but it's not AD vs CJ for 1 spot in the HoF. Peterson will absolutely get in, but CJ's more than qualified to be discussed at this point in his career. In the history of the NFL, only 5 other RB's have rushed for more yards in their first 5 seasons than CJ has, and he already holds records of his own such as the YFS record and 80+ runs record. And I don't consider CJ's 2009 year exceeded (although, the argument is significantly weaker now that AD has a 2,000 yards season under his belt).

CJ (2009): 2,006 yards, 5.6 YPC, 14 TD's, 50 rec., 503 yards, 10.1 YPC, 2 TD's.
AD (2012): 2,097 yards, 6.0 YPC, 12 TD's, 40 rec., 217 yards, 5.1 YPC, 1 TD.

CJ had one of the best seasons of all time, let alone compared to the other members of the 2K Club. Among the seven 2,000 yard rushers, CJ's year is 1st in total yards and 2nd in total TD's. That really separates him from the group behind OJ Simpson's year, which is the best rushing performance of all time.
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