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Old 01-06-2013, 12:29 AM    (permalink
BigBanger
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
No, you really couldn't. Davis didn't do anything at an elite level. He ran through gaping holes...like every other back who came through there, it was one cut and go. You just wait for the huge hole to open up and cut back to wide open daylight.

He had no moves, average power, no speed.

And if anybody tries to make the "durability" argument I'm going to laugh hysterically. Davis lasted just 4 years.

Davis wasn't even the best back in Super Bowl XXXIII (Jamal Anderson).
Well if it's that easy (running through gapping holes, cutting back to daylight, not needing any speed, power or moves) then you should try out for the Redskins. Make yourself famous.

Davis didn't fall in the draft because wasn't talented. Reason 1) injuries. 2) his head coach denied scouts and GMs his game film.

Bottom line is this... No RB has ever done what Davis did in Shanahan's system. He's never had a RB carry his team to a Super Bowl in back-to-back seasons. Davis carried the Broncos to 2 Super Bowl wins.

And the Jamal Anderson comment? Really? You talk about draft picks like they have any relevance. And then you mention a 7th round pick who disappeared as fast as he blew up. He did next to nothing in any season outside of the 1998 season. He only played in three post season games where ran over 100 yards in just one of them. Davis went over 100 yards in 5 of the last 6 postseason games he played in. He went over 90 yards in all of them. It's also interesting that you say Anderson was better when Davis went over 2,000 yards the season they faced off in the Super Bowl. And Davis also had 23 total TDs that year. A tad bit more than Anderson's 16.

Should we even get into speed and elusiveness? Anderson certainly was an amazing athlete. Everything about him was superior to Davis now that you mention it. Alright, hes a Hall of Famer.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:37 AM    (permalink
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There really isn't. As someone who has helped coach 9 year olds before, I can tell you that the fastest players without pads are almost invariably the fastest players with pads.
oh s h I t!!!! I can't believe you said that. Lol

You're not even the coach. Youre the weird guy that nobody wants around their kids "who helps." That's too funny.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:57 AM    (permalink
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Well if it's that easy (running through gapping holes, cutting back to daylight, not needing any speed, power or moves) then you should try out for the Redskins. Make yourself famous.
Terrible argument. Compared to me, Derek Loville was all-world.

If you make it to the NFL, you can do what Davis did. It doesn't require special ability. That's why Shanahan has done it with so many different guys.


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Davis didn't fall in the draft because wasn't talented. Reason 1) injuries. 2) his head coach denied scouts and GMs his game film.
No, he fell in the draft because he wasn't overly productive or impressive and ran a poor 40-yard-dash. Davis only missed 3 games as a senior. There have been guys who had their senior season entirely wiped out who were taken high in the draft.

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Bottom line is this... No RB has ever done what Davis did in Shanahan's system. He's never had a RB carry his team to a Super Bowl in back-to-back seasons. Davis carried the Broncos to 2 Super Bowl wins.
Davis never carried a team to 2 Super Bowl wins. Aside from the blocking scheme being the key to their running game...are you forgetting guys named John Elway and Shannon Sharpe?


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And the Jamal Anderson comment? Really? You talk about draft picks like they have any relevance. And then you mention a 7th round pick who disappeared as fast as he blew up. He did next to nothing in any season outside of the 1998 season. He only played in three post season games where ran over 100 yards in just one of them. Davis went over 100 yards in 5 of the last 6 postseason games he played in. He went over 90 yards in all of them. It's also interesting that you say Anderson was better when Davis went over 2,000 yards the season they faced off in the Super Bowl. And Davis also had 23 total TDs that year. A tad bit more than Anderson's 16.
What I'm saying is Anderson was a better back. He was a fullback in college (juco transfer) and trimmed down in the NFL...a power guy and the Falcons' MVP. Without Anderson, they don't even sniff the playoffs that year. Talk about carrying a team...

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Should we even get into speed and elusiveness? Anderson certainly was an amazing athlete. Everything about him was superior to Davis now that you mention it. Alright, hes a Hall of Famer.
No, he's not a Hall of Famer. But he was a good back while it lasted...and I hated him.

The fraud that was Terrell Davis is pretty much spelled out in this video with Alex Gibbs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNa3gZfQfH0
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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oh s h I t!!!! I can't believe you said that. Lol

You're not even the coach. Youre the weird guy that nobody wants around their kids "who helps." That's too funny.
Nope, I was an assistant coach. It must be your own pedophilic tendencies showing through.
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:09 AM    (permalink
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Nope, I was an assistant coach. It must be your own pedophilic tendencies showing through.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:36 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
Terrible argument. Compared to me, Derek Loville was all-world.

If you make it to the NFL, you can do what Davis did. It doesn't require special ability. That's why Shanahan has done it with so many different guys.




No, he fell in the draft because he wasn't overly productive or impressive and ran a poor 40-yard-dash. Davis only missed 3 games as a senior. There have been guys who had their senior season entirely wiped out who were taken high in the draft.



Davis never carried a team to 2 Super Bowl wins. Aside from the blocking scheme being the key to their running game...are you forgetting guys named John Elway and Shannon Sharpe?




What I'm saying is Anderson was a better back. He was a fullback in college (juco transfer) and trimmed down in the NFL...a power guy and the Falcons' MVP. Without Anderson, they don't even sniff the playoffs that year. Talk about carrying a team...



No, he's not a Hall of Famer. But he was a good back while it lasted...and I hated him.

The fraud that was Terrell Davis is pretty much spelled out in this video with Alex Gibbs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNa3gZfQfH0
Would you stop talking? You just made me want to spank your ignorant ass. Literally pull your pants down and spank your ass in front of a bunch of people like you were 9 years old.

The guys who followed Davis in Denver could not compare to him. You throw out stats like they mean anything. All the backs, maybe with the lone exception of Clinton Portis, were not nearly as successful, or as talented as Terrell Davis. That's a fact. And they certainly weren't as productive as him. Even if you want to take away all their poor games and extrapolate their best games into 16 game figures, and then talk about the impressive yardage totals that they never actually rushed for. Davis' numbers are concrete. They are etched in stone. They are real, and they're still better than the fake numbers your created. I don't have to say, "Well, if we only look at Terrell's 12 best games and take the average of them, and then add that average to four more games to get a nice grand total of around 1,700 or 1,800 yards... Blah blah blah."

You have a very stupid argument. It's a great system. Thats your arguement. But no one denies that the system isn't just that. No one denies that Shanahan is an offensive guru, and maybe the best in football. And right now, he might be in the middle of actually revolutionizing the running game. But that's neither here nor there. You don't discredit a player for being great in a system because other people were good in that system. Terrell Davis was GREAT. He did things that no other RB had done in decades before him. The Broncos were unstoppable. They weren't just good or productive. They were unstoppable.

Elway and Sharpe played for a long time together and had a lot of chances to "carry the Broncos to a Super Bowl". Elway didn't carry the team by sticking it in Davis' gut 25+ times a game, did he? Take a look at Davis' game-by-game rushing numbers in the playoffs during the first Super Bowl run. He scored 8 TDs that postseason (in 4 games). He ran for 184 yards, 101, 139 and 157 yards respectively. That's in the ******* playoffs. He also carried the ball 31, 25, 26, and 30 times respectively. That is what I call carrying a team to the Super Bowl. Your boy Shannon Sharpe never caught more than 50 yards worth of passes in a single playoff game, or added a single TD in those 4 playoff games. Not that you would expect it, because he only caught 3 TDs the entire season. The following year? Sharpe was even less productive in the postseason. But his 0 TDs in three games were pretty consistent. (Not that I want to sound like I'm bashing Sharpe, but there is no comparison). During the regular season (1998), Davis ran for 2,008 yards and scored 21 TDs. He carried the ball a lot during the '97 and '98 regular seasons. I think you could say that he carried the team to both Super Bowls. But maybe that's just me. Maybe I'm stupid.

That video sheds nothing on Terrell Davis that could be conveyed in a negative light. The video is showing what the scheme and blocking assignments are supposed to look like when it's executed properly. Gibbs also said that they had a lot of fine backs in Denver after Davis left, but none of them as good as him. Hard to argue against that when Davis was the only RB in Broncos history to deliver a Super Bowl. Or rush for as many yards in the years he was there.

You don't measure an athletes career accomplishments based on the talent or scheme they were surrounded by / played in. Maybe Bill Belichick is a terrible coach. Maybe he's only winning because of Tom Brady. Maybe it's the other way around. You wanna pick a side in that debate and try to make that stupid argument stick? You call them both great and leave it at that. They make players around them better, but Terrell Davis made John Elway better. He made the WRs better. Davis was the deadly weapon. He was the difference in making it to the Super Bowl and not making it to the playoffs. He was the difference in winning the Super Bowl and losing it, which Elway was notorious for doing.

There are very few Barry Sanders type players. Players that exceed no matter what the circumstances are around them. Those types of players are legends of the game. Joe Montana wasn't overly productive or talented coming out of college. Maybe he never turns into anything without Bill Walsh. You are trying to argue about something you can't quantify. Look at Davis' accomplishments and ask yourself if it's good enough. If it isn't, then it isn't. There's no need to call him a fraud, or say that it was just the system. Did he benefit from it? Sure. Did he benefit from playing with John Elway? Sure, but so didn't Elway. Most great players are going to be great when they have the opportunity to be great. Larry Fitzgerald is a great player. We have seen what he can do when the opportunity is there. We have seen what he can't do when the opportunity isn't there. That's a case of circumstance exposing a players grreatness and then hiding a players greatness. Terrell Davis was a great player. He's probably among the five best running backs I've ever seen, or very close to it.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:56 AM    (permalink
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Alex Gibbs explaining the nuances of the running game and being a perfectionist = Terrell Davis is a fraud.

Funny, because in that video Alex Gibbs says exactly "Now a lot of these on film are Terrell Davis was our player a couple years ago...ummm...we've had two very fine ones the last two years (assuming Olandis Gary and Mike Anderson) not as good as him, but very good..."

In other news Joe Montana has also been exposed as a fraud due to the success of Steve Young in a similar system.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 01-06-2013, 04:07 AM    (permalink
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Oh my goodness look how bad Terrell Davis was. No shift ability at all.



Pssh, can't juke a defender to save his life.



Ha! You call that speed? Dude is slow as hell!



As you can clearly see, Davis was a phony and is simply a product of Mike Shanahan's wonderful system. Screw the praise of coaches, teammates, and defenders alike. What the hell do they know? Is it possible that a runningback friendly system combined with a talented runner joined forces? Nope.

Special note: Elway was clearly the better quarterback than Montana because he "carried" his teams to Super Bowls.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 01-06-2013, 04:21 AM    (permalink
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JT, don't you ever get sick of being wrong?
Hahaha. Hilarious post is hilarious.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:37 AM    (permalink
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Would you stop talking? You just made me want to spank your ignorant ass. Literally pull your pants down and spank your ass in front of a bunch of people like you were 9 years old.
Not interested. I'd suggest you keep your homosexual desires to yourself.


Quote:
The guys who followed Davis in Denver could not compare to him. You throw out stats like they mean anything.
Yeah, what could stats possibly mean? Especially when they say the same thing over and over again?

I love how you tell me the stats don't count just because they don't work in your favor here, but then later claim the reverse ("the other backs clearly were not as productive as Terrell Davis!")

You're contradicting yourself at every turn, and it's hilarious.


Quote:
All the backs, maybe with the lone exception of Clinton Portis, were not nearly as successful, or as talented as Terrell Davis. That's a fact.
It's a fact because you say it is? That's your argument?

I hate to break it to you, but that's not a valid argument. That's the statement of a desperate individual.


Quote:
And they certainly weren't as productive as him. Even if you want to take away all their poor games and extrapolate their best games into 16 game figures, and then talk about the impressive yardage totals that they never actually rushed for. Davis' numbers are concrete. They are etched in stone. They are real, and they're still better than the fake numbers your created.
Fake numbers? What fake numbers? Every number I posted is real. I was demonstrating that on a per game basis, all of the backs following Davis were similarly productive to even Davis's best seasons.

What kind of idiot would factor in a game in which a back didn't play, or a game in which a back didn't start and only received 1 carry (for 3 yards) as if it's the same as a starting game for a feature runner?

You tell me the stats don't mean anything, and then you insist that they only mean something if you look at them blindly...without actually doing the slightest bit of analysis. Your argument is so foolish it's a parody of itself.


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I don't have to say, "Well, if we only look at Terrell's 12 best games and take the average of them, and then add that average to four more games to get a nice grand total of around 1,700 or 1,800 yards... Blah blah blah."
I didn't take anyone's best games. I took the games in which they actually:

A. Played

and

B. Received a significant number of carries (i.e. more than 1-2)

Comparing what Davis did in 16 games to what another back did in 12 (or technically 13 because in one game he received 1 carry for 3 yards) is not a compatible comparison. Any reasonable person would instead compare the production from when they were given a significant number of opportunities.

In terms of per game average, all of these backs were right up there with Terrell Davis at his very best. Even his career best 1998 season only slightly edged them out, and they didn't get 4 years to try to match that.


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You have a very stupid argument. It's a great system. Thats your arguement. But no one denies that the system isn't just that. No one denies that Shanahan is an offensive guru, and maybe the best in football. And right now, he might be in the middle of actually revolutionizing the running game. But that's neither here nor there. You don't discredit a player for being great in a system because other people were good in that system.
No, you discredit a running back whose claim to greatness is purely stat-based when his numbers are purely derived from the blocking scheme/system. If you watch film of Davis, he does not do anything impressive. He was in the best run blocking system in football, followed said blocking, and did little extra. He wasn't a huge threat at the second level. He wasn't even really supposed to be, if you listen to Gibbs. Gibbs wanted him to hit it up in there.

People make anti-Emmitt Smith arguments based on the Cowboys' offensive lines of the 90s, and Smith was 1,000 times the runner Davis was. Smith was a powerhouse. He was as durable as it gets, and the Cowboys were a pure straight-ahead team that ran Smith right at people. They just wore teams down with him. That was the reason they could beat the Packers - they controlled the flow of the game and kept Shurmur from unleashing exotic blitzes by running right at them. They were one of the few teams that could do it, because it was tough running inside on teams in those days...especially with a fatass like Gilbert Brown in there. But Smith would just pound away inside with hard nosed running out of the I.

And it's perfectly acceptable on most forums to claim Smith was overrated and a product of the Cowboys' offensive lines.

But how dare someone question Mr. One-Cut-And-Go?


Quote:
Terrell Davis was GREAT.
How so? What did he physically do that was great?

Quote:
He did things that no other RB had done in decades before him. The Broncos were unstoppable. They weren't just good or productive. They were unstoppable.
They were stopped by the Jaguars in 1996 despite being the #1 seed. That's not "unstoppable." They edged out the Packers in one of the greatest Super Bowls ever played. That's not "unstoppable." That was an upset, too.

And all of that has nothing to do with whether or not Terrell Davis was truly worth a damn as a running back in the NFL.


Quote:
Elway and Sharpe played for a long time together and had a lot of chances to "carry the Broncos to a Super Bowl". Elway didn't carry the team by sticking it in Davis' gut 25+ times a game, did he? Take a look at Davis' game-by-game rushing numbers in the playoffs during the first Super Bowl run. He scored 8 TDs that postseason (in 4 games). He ran for 184 yards, 101, 139 and 157 yards respectively. That's in the ******* playoffs. He also carried the ball 31, 25, 26, and 30 times respectively. That is what I call carrying a team to the Super Bowl. Your boy Shannon Sharpe never caught more than 50 yards worth of passes in a single playoff game, or added a single TD in those 4 playoff games. Not that you would expect it, because he only caught 3 TDs the entire season. The following year? Sharpe was even less productive in the postseason. But his 0 TDs in three games were pretty consistent. (Not that I want to sound like I'm bashing Sharpe, but there is no comparison). During the regular season (1998), Davis ran for 2,008 yards and scored 21 TDs. He carried the ball a lot during the '97 and '98 regular seasons. I think you could say that he carried the team to both Super Bowls. But maybe that's just me. Maybe I'm stupid.
Stats stats stats stats stats. Your hypocrisy is already making you look silly.

In 1997, their first playoff victory was against the Jaguars. They beat them 42-17. That means they scored 42 points.

Davis didn't score them all.......

Then they beat the Chiefs 14-10. I forgot, does Terrell Davis play defense?

Then they beat the Steelers 24-21. The Broncos trailed the Steelers 14-7 and then went on to win. Davis? No touchdowns after that point.

Then in the Super Bowl, I seem to remember a certain Steve Atwater making some plays that were kind of big in that close one. Ya know?

The following season, they beat Miami 38-3. Clearly, Davis did a great job holding the Dolphins to 3 points and scoring 38. All by himself.

Then they beat the Jets 23-10 behind another great defensive performance from Davis. He also did a great job making Jason Elam hit those 40+ yard field goals.

Super Bowl arrives, and whaddaya know...John Elway is the MVP with 336 passing yards. Thanks, TD.


This just in: The Broncos adding a system-based running game to an already effective passing game was kind of instrumental in getting them to the next level. That doesn't mean it was the ******* product of a system running back who carried them to the Super Bowl.

The Broncos continued to run the ball extremely well throughout Shanahan's tenure. What they never replaced was John Elway or Shannon Sharpe.


Quote:
That video sheds nothing on Terrell Davis that could be conveyed in a negative light. The video is showing what the scheme and blocking assignments are supposed to look like when it's executed properly. Gibbs also said that they had a lot of fine backs in Denver after Davis left, but none of them as good as him. Hard to argue against that when Davis was the only RB in Broncos history to deliver a Super Bowl. Or rush for as many yards in the years he was there.
That video shows Davis running through gaping holes with Gibbs explaining that every read he made was determined by the linemen "forcing it." Davis even passed up certain cutbacks just because, as Gibbs put it, "you have to live with that in this system." He was a pure robot. You'll notice he doesn't get many yards after contact on any of those plays. He heads downhill and the first guy to get to him gets him down. He even slips and falls in the open field with plenty of space on one of those clips.

Gibbs was referring to Olandis Gary and Mike Anderson. Yeah, they might not have been as good as Terrell Davis. That's like saying toxic waste isn't as good as dog ****. The first semi-legitimate starting running back the Broncos had during the Shanahan years was Clinton Portis. Gibbs talks about how quick Portis was in another video, mentioning they had to widen their marks a couple of yards when he became the feature guy.


Quote:
You don't measure an athletes career accomplishments based on the talent or scheme they were surrounded by / played in. Maybe Bill Belichick is a terrible coach. Maybe he's only winning because of Tom Brady. Maybe it's the other way around. You wanna pick a side in that debate and try to make that stupid argument stick? You call them both great and leave it at that.
No, what you do is you use logic to deduce what is really responsible. If a player isn't impressive to watch...guess what? He probably isn't that good. If it looks like the scheme is responsible...it probably is.


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They make players around them better, but Terrell Davis made John Elway better.
How? He made Elway's numbers better? Doesn't look like it. Elway had his career season in 1993...pre-Davis.

Quote:
He made the WRs better.
No evidence of this at all.

Quote:
Davis was the deadly weapon. He was the difference in making it to the Super Bowl and not making it to the playoffs. He was the difference in winning the Super Bowl and losing it, which Elway was notorious for doing.
No. Their running game was the difference. Davis himself was not the key. He was interchangeable with about 100 other running backs in the NFL.

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There are very few Barry Sanders type players. Players that exceed no matter what the circumstances are around them. Those types of players are legends of the game.
No, there are tons of players who are clearly exceptional talents. All you have to do is watch football. DeMarcus Ware? Great player. Jared Allen? Great player. Maurice Jones-Drew? Great player. Calvin Johnson? Great player. Patrick Willis? Great player.

The system guys become obvious when you see guys who aren't as talented as the premier players at their position equaling or exceeding them in production. When you see some physically unimpressive guy producing, there's a good chance you're witnessing a product of a system.

Lance Moore, Wes Welker, Terrell Davis, Mike Anderson, Olandis Gary, Reuben Droughns, Austin Collie, Mike Furrey...

Quote:
Joe Montana wasn't overly productive or talented coming out of college. Maybe he never turns into anything without Bill Walsh.
That's entirely possible, and that's a knock on Montana. The difference between Steve Bartkowski and Joe Montana was the system they were in. You can see that just watching them go head to head in the early 80s. That's a different subject entirely, though.

Quote:
You are trying to argue about something you can't quantify. Look at Davis' accomplishments and ask yourself if it's good enough. If it isn't, then it isn't. There's no need to call him a fraud, or say that it was just the system. Did he benefit from it? Sure. Did he benefit from playing with John Elway? Sure, but so didn't Elway. Most great players are going to be great when they have the opportunity to be great. Larry Fitzgerald is a great player. We have seen what he can do when the opportunity is there. We have seen what he can't do when the opportunity isn't there. That's a case of circumstance exposing a players grreatness and then hiding a players greatness. Terrell Davis was a great player. He's probably among the five best running backs I've ever seen, or very close to it.
Fitzgerald produces anyway. And that's not an issue of system...that's an issue of utter incompetence at quarterback.

When Fitzgerald makes plays, he does it by dominating on jump balls. He has obvious rare ability that shows up when you watch him.

Davis didn't. The Davis legend is purely based on production, including production in big games. But he was in those big games because he was on better teams, and he never had to face, say, the 2000 Ravens, as Mike Anderson did.

He would have the lamest highlight reel of any player in the Hall of Fame, and that's not just because of how short his career was. While you could show endless footage of Walter Payton breaking tackles, or Barry Sanders making impossible moves, Davis's reel would be limited to a few fluke broken tackles and a bunch of easy long runs through gaping holes.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:41 AM    (permalink
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Really?



That's my full post, and I even bolded the reason why I brought CJ up. Not sure how you missed that when you were cutting my post.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with throwing CJ's name out into the discussion, if that's what you're getting at. He's not Peterson, but it's not AD vs CJ for 1 spot in the HoF. Peterson will absolutely get in, but CJ's more than qualified to be discussed at this point in his career. In the history of the NFL, only 5 other RB's have rushed for more yards in their first 5 seasons than CJ has, and he already holds records of his own such as the YFS record and 80+ runs record. And I don't consider CJ's 2009 year exceeded (although, the argument is significantly weaker now that AD has a 2,000 yards season under his belt).

CJ (2009): 2,006 yards, 5.6 YPC, 14 TD's, 50 rec., 503 yards, 10.1 YPC, 2 TD's.
AD (2012): 2,097 yards, 6.0 YPC, 12 TD's, 40 rec., 217 yards, 5.1 YPC, 1 TD.

CJ had one of the best seasons of all time, let alone compared to the other members of the 2K Club. Among the seven 2,000 yard rushers, CJ's year is 1st in total yards and 2nd in total TD's. That really separates him from the group behind OJ Simpson's year, which is the best rushing performance of all time.
I think Chris Johnson is just massively overrated. I think it's wrong to couple Chris Johnson with Adrian Peterson. Just wrong.

Adrian Peterson is going to be a lock. A first ballot guy. Hopefully he can stay healthy and play at a high level for another 4 more years. Then he can become something special.

Chris Johnson has been average for the last two years. I don't even consider him a top 10 RB anymore. He has a lot to prove. Right now he's hanging his hat on that 2,000 yard season. And Peterson has accomplished far more. His dominance this year was about as impressive as any RB ever. He started slow and it looked like he rushed back from injury. He was good, but he wasn't the same player. Then he just exploded and played as good as he ever has. If he was fully healthy at the start, then he might have had a chance to obliterate the record. He's the first runner that I've seen that has challenged the greatness of Barry Sanders. As I've said before, Peterson is in a league of his own. Everyone is playing for second best.

Johnson has only been in the top 5 in rushing twice. Peterson has already led the NFL in rushing twice (runner up another year). Two times in five years? And he's declining already? Outside of 2009 and 2010, I don't think Johnson has been a distinctive player. Maybe he needs a change of scenery, but right now this should be the prime of his career. Not a time where he's fading into mediocrity (and at times well below mediocre). Peterson has only fallen out of the top 6 in rushing once, and that was due to an injury shortened season. Peterson has been in the top five (or six) in rushing every other year.

I would certainly consider Arian Foster before Chis Johnson. Now, it's still very early in both players career, but Foster has been dominant since he entered the league. He's already led the NFL in rushing and he's scored 10+ rushing TDs in each of his first 3 seasons (12+ total TDs in each). I think for the last three years Foster has been in contention with Peterson for best RB in the NFL. Marshawn Lynch has inserted himself into the discussion the past two seasons, but Foster has pretty much been right there with Peterson for the last three.

Not to mention, the playoffs... Foster is doing work. He's gone over 150 total yards in each of his first three playoff games, and he's scored at least 1 TD in each game. He's rushed for over 130 yards in each postseason game.

I'm also very interested to see where Lynch's career goes. He has been great the last two years and I think he's the second best RB in the NFL right now. He has found himself in a great situation. He is probably going to have a lot left in the tank, to the point where he could have another 5 great years ahead of him. With his raw ability, and now being in a position for success, the potential for huge numbers over the next three to five years is certainly there. He already has a signature run in the playoffs.

I would consider Peterson, Foster and Lynch the Top 3 RBs in the NFL right now. And I'd say they have the best chances going forward to solidify themselves as great players. Lycnh has personality traits that scare me though.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:52 AM    (permalink
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Alex Gibbs explaining the nuances of the running game and being a perfectionist = Terrell Davis is a fraud.

Funny, because in that video Alex Gibbs says exactly "Now a lot of these on film are Terrell Davis was our player a couple years ago...ummm...we've had two very fine ones the last two years (assuming Olandis Gary and Mike Anderson) not as good as him, but very good..."

In other news Joe Montana has also been exposed as a fraud due to the success of Steve Young in a similar system.
What a shock, you're not actually ignoring me. You come out of hiding just in time to give it another try on a different subject, since you figure your regurgitation of every cliche in the book on this subject will score you some brownie points.

When Gibbs is using Gary and Anderson as the bench mark for "very good," that says it all. He never praises Davis in this video. Not even once. He does praise Warrick Dunn in another video series, though. Hmmm.
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:07 AM    (permalink
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Oh my goodness look how bad Terrell Davis was. No shift ability at all.



Pssh, can't juke a defender to save his life.



Ha! You call that speed? Dude is slow as hell!



As you can clearly see, Davis was a phony and is simply a product of Mike Shanahan's wonderful system. Screw the praise of coaches, teammates, and defenders alike. What the hell do they know? Is it possible that a runningback friendly system combined with a talented runner joined forces? Nope.

Special note: Elway was clearly the better quarterback than Montana because he "carried" his teams to Super Bowls.
I love how you think those clips are on your side.

They're just more to pile onto the mountain of evidence on my side. Davis is untouched at the first level in every one of those clips. On the first one, he can't even stay on his feet after the safety seemingly misses the tackle.

On the second play, he nets about 5 extra yards with one of his exceedingly rare spin moves.

On the last play, he outruns nobody. The nearest defender (23 - Corey Sawyer - 4.6 40-yard-dash) is being blocked. Even Davis supporters acknowledge he was slow as molasses. Safety Greg Myers missed a tackle. He had a 5 year career in total, starting a significant number of games in only 2 of them. You see the recurring theme? Lousy, journeyman caliber defensive backs missing tackles all on their own...nothing Davis is even doing here.

If this is the best you can do for highlights, it is really weak.

And OMG, his teammates and coaches publicly praise him? WOWWWWWWWwwww!!! That's, like, so meaningful. I was totally expecting them to go on camera and say he was an overrated product of their blocking scheme.

Mike Singletary once said that Derek Smith was physical and a fine tackler.

I could make better gifs for various running backs just looking through Derek Smith missed tackles clips.

http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=4438435&t=o GIFSoup

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Old 01-06-2013, 05:20 AM    (permalink
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Huh?

You're starting to sound like the Welker fans here.

Davis didn't have burst or quickness, and "vision" is another example of an intangible people ascribe to a player when they want to justify his production but can't come up with any actual physical attributes.


There really isn't. As someone who has helped coach 9 year olds before, I can tell you that the fastest players without pads are almost invariably the fastest players with pads.

There's a difference between quickness and speed, and that's where most people get confused.



What do you think it is? Do you think Shanahan is some brilliant scout? Shanahan said that Kevan Barlow was the best back in the 2001 draft...a draft that included LaDainian Tomlinson.

You're just talking out your ass right now. Terrell Davis was never an elusive runner. Not even remotely. He was a straight line, downhill guy. You probably saw a single highlight on some NFL films thing of him making a spin move and projected that to his game as a whole. I'm pretty sure I know which one it is, too. Against the Packers in the Super Bowl.

He was a 6th round pick. From Georgia. If he had all this talent you claim, he would not have fallen that far. They had a recent history of Herschel Walker, Rodney Hampton, and Garrison Hearst. It was Running Back U. Yet there was Davis, sitting there in the late 6th. The scouts got plenty of looks at him and were thoroughly unimpressed. And for good reason - he wasn't a great back.

Aaron Craver had 20 carries for 108 yards subbing for Davis in the season finale in 1995. Just thought I'd throw that out there in addition to everything else. The evidence is absolutely overwhelming.
Terrell Davis fell on draft day because he ran a slow 40, in the 4.6 range. I believe he also had an injury history at Georgia that got him labeled as 'injury prone' by scouts. That's why he fell. It had nothing to do with his talent.

Apparently you saw a mediocre straight line RB in TD when he played for the Broncos. Everyone else saw a different player. Comparing the arguments in favor of Davis to those supporting Wes Welker's bona fides is a nonsense equivalence.

Lawrence Taylor ran a slow 40 time, and yet was considered one the fastest players in the game, someone who routinely ran down RBs from backside pursuit.
Ty Law ran a slow 40 time. Arian Foster ran a slow 40 time.
Emmitt Smith deliberately avoided running the 40 predraft because he wasn't a 'fast' timed player.
However when Jimmy Johnson drafted him and was asked about any concerns about Emmitt Smith's speed, Johnson responded that, "Emmitt Smith played in the SEC for the 3 years and I never saw that guy get caught from behind.'

The fact that TD had a scholarship to Georgia, a player who was signed from the state of California, should indicate that Terrell Davis had recognizable football talent before he was drafted by the Broncos.

Football speed is about how fast a player is at stopping/starting, zig-zagging, turning and changing directions, running laterally to the LOS and still is able to maintain a quickness/speed advantage over his opponents.

You say you've coached 9 year olds, and yet somehow you didn't notice there are players who move faster when they're being chased than when they're running in a straight line by themselves. Or observe there are players who move faster when they're pursuing the ball than when they themselves are carrying the football.

Yes I do believe Shanahan is a great scout of RBs. Is there any question of this??
Other teams run variations of the ZBS too. None have had the success SHanny has had. Shanny has been high on other RBs too who never panned out. That still doesn't disqualify his success record at the position.

So let me get this straight; TD is a fraud RB who was a total invention of Mike Shanahan's ZBS.
'Vision' for RBs is a football folk tale.
And the phenomena of 'game speed' is a myth.

IMO you're flat wrong.
Otherwise we disagree on several points.


In the future if you're going to choose another NFL sacred cow to slaughter, pick someone more qualified for evisceration that Terrell Davis.

P.S. - Ask any Broncos fan if the only time TD did a spin move was against the Pack in the SB. BTW you have a very limited definition of the term 'elusive'. A jump-cut is an evasive, make-em-miss move for a RB, This was a signature move of TD's running style, as it was for Barry Sanders.
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:42 AM    (permalink
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Ness this is a great clip.



JT only sees the yardage TD picked up. I see a RB who is so patient he nearly comes to a complete stop behind the LOS waiting for his Oline to pick up their blocks, cuts back, jukes a LB in the hole, fakes the safety and picks up 12 yards, not five, before he's run down by a LB through the trash.

The DB that Davis outran was Corey Sawyer from FSU, not Corey Webster from LSU.
Corey Webster was drafted 4 years after TD retired.

Also others are right JT.
You can't take a season average per carry for a RB and extrapolate that number to argue that Player A is as productive as Player B. That's funny math and a statistical shell game.

It would be like me saying player Y averaged 6 yds/carry on 20 total carries and therefore was more productive on a per carry basis than player Z who averaged 4.5 yds/carry for 360 attempts for an entire season.
Those other RBs who came after Davis came nowhere near his production.

EDIT: Tried to rep you BB since I think I'm just repeated what you've already been saying.

On other subjects on SWDC, JT I think has been both compelling and convincing in some of his arguments, even if I don't agree with his final conclusion.

However his opinion that TD was an unspectacular system RB for the Broncos just doesn't pass the smell test for me. The arguments JT is using just deny what I saw, what most people saw, when TD played.

As BB already stated, every NFL player to some degree is a product of the system he plays in, but that doesn't underscore their individual talent. There's only a handful of players who would be superstars in any scheme.

I still think TD would have had elite production for almost any team in the NFL at his peak.
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:56 AM    (permalink
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Ness this is a great clip.



JT only sees the yardage TD picked up. I see a RB who is so patient he nearly comes to a complete stop behind the LOS waiting for his Oline to pick up their blocks, cuts back, jukes a LB in the hole, fakes the safety and picks up 12 yards, not five, before he's run down by a LB through the trash.

The DB that Davis outran was Corey Sawyer from FSU, not Corey Webster from LSU.
Corey Webster was drafted 4 years after TD retired.
It certainly is thank you!

Yup. Pretty easy to see that Davis was pretty talented. Well, for most people that is.

Good thing he decided to play running back. Could you imagine if he did something lame like I don't know...bowling?

JT? Who the hell is that...???
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:15 AM    (permalink
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Terrell Davis fell on draft day because he ran a slow 40, in the 4.6 range. I believe he also had an injury history at Georgia that got him labeled as 'injury prone' by scouts. That's why he fell. It had nothing to do with his talent.
You're reading wikipedia, aren't you?

Frank Gore still went in the 3rd round despite the same concerns.

If Davis had been considered that talented, there's no way he would've fallen that far.


Quote:
Apparently you saw a mediocre straight line RB in TD when he played for the Broncos. Everyone else saw a different player. Comparing the arguments in favor of Davis to those supporting Wes Welker's bona fides is a nonsense equivalence.
Guaranteed, there were scouts who thought the same thing I did.

Quote:
Lawrence Taylor ran a slow 40 time, and yet was considered one the fastest players in the game, someone who routinely ran down RBs from backside pursuit.
Taylor was timed in the 4.6 range, which was rare for linebackers back then.



Quote:
Ty Law ran a slow 40 time.
And Law was not a very fast corner. He was a physical press guy...who got flagged for a lot of pass interference penalties.

Quote:
Arian Foster ran a slow 40 time.
To be honest, I'm not particularly high on Foster, either. Alex Gibbs had his hand in the Texans' system, too (and Mike Shanahan, by proxy, since he worked with both Gibbs and Kubiak).

Quote:
Emmitt Smith deliberately avoided running the 40 predraft because he wasn't a 'fast' timed player.
However when Jimmy Johnson drafted him and was asked about any concerns about Emmitt Smith's speed, Johnson responded that, "Emmitt Smith played in the SEC for the 3 years and I never saw that guy get caught from behind.'
Smith was a power runner. I don't think anyone would ever confuse him with being fast.

Quote:
The fact that TD had a scholarship to Georgia, a player who was signed from the state of California, should indicate that Terrell Davis had recognizable football talent before he was drafted by the Broncos.
I suppose that's a fair argument, but that merely means he was considered a good high school prospect.

Quote:
Football speed is about how fast a player is at stopping/starting, zig-zagging, turning and changing directions, running laterally to the LOS and still is able to maintain a quickness/speed advantage over his opponents.
No, speed is speed. Speed is about how fast you cover ground in a straight line. You're talking about quickness and agility.


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You say you've coached 9 year olds, and yet somehow you didn't notice there are players who move faster when they're being chased than when they're running in a straight line by themselves. Or observe there are players who move faster when they're pursuing the ball than when they themselves are carrying the football.
What I noticed was our fastest players on the field were the same players who were the fastest in t-shirts.

Terrell Davis did not have great open field speed. LaDainian Tomlinson did. Adrian Peterson does. Tony Dorsett did. Ahman Green did.

Quote:
Yes I do believe Shanahan is a great scout of RBs. Is there any question of this??
I think there is.

Quote:
Other teams run variations of the ZBS too. None have had the success SHanny has had. Shanny has been high on other RBs too who never panned out. That still doesn't disqualify his success record at the position.
Alex Gibbs explained why in one of the videos of him lecturing on Youtube. Teams either don't have the patience to stick with the scheme and drill it into their offensive linemen, or they try to put in plays that don't mix well with it.

That's what made it so devastating with Shanahan. Shanahan did a perfect job of installing the right plays. He and Gibbs were on the same page.

agree on several points.

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In the future if you're going to choose another NFL sacred cow to slaughter, pick someone more qualified for evisceration that Terrell Davis.

P.S. - Ask any Broncos fan if the only time TD did a spin move was against the Pack in the SB. BTW you have a very limited definition of the term 'elusive'. A jump-cut is an evasive, make-em-miss move for a RB, This was a stable of TD's running style, as it was for Barry Sanders.
I'm not seeing Davis really make any cuts at all once he picks the hole.

I've seen too many good running backs to buy into the Terrell Davis BS.

From Billy Sims to Freeman McNeil to Garrison Hearst to Walter Payton to Emmitt Smith to Thurman Thomas to Maurice Jones-Drew to Ricky Watters to Marshall Faulk to Chuck Foreman.

Davis's skill level was not remarkable.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:25 AM    (permalink
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It certainly is thank you!

Yup. Pretty easy to see that Davis was pretty talented. Well, for most people that is.

Good thing he decided to play running back. Could you imagine if he did something lame like I don't know...bowling?

JT? Who the hell is that...???
You compared Curtis Martin to Garrison Hearst. That's like comparing vanilla to chocolate.

Oh, a bowling-related shot. Way to further expose how ignorant you really are.

Oh wait, I forgot. Bowling is for looooosers. Winners post on various websites in excess of 10,000 posts...featuring the most nauseatingly cliche "opinions" ever.

What's next, Ness? Are you going to post that you think water is wet? Maybe you can say that Roddy White is a very good receiver, but not Hall of Fame caliber, at least not yet. What would we do without you?
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:33 AM    (permalink
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You can't take a season average per carry for a RB and extrapolate that number to argue that Player A is as productive as Player B. That's funny math and a statistical shell game.

It would be like me saying player Y averaged 6 yds/carry on 20 total carries and therefore was more productive on a per carry basis than player Z who averaged 4.5 yds/carry for 360 attempts for an entire season.
Those other RBs who came after Davis came nowhere near his production.
Except I didn't do that. I based it on per game averages, not per carry.

And it would be one thing if I did it based on only 1-2 games. I mean, I bring that stuff up every now and then with Welker, since it seems to support my argument and there's very little to go off of in that case.

But these other backs did them over 12+ games. I don't see how it's unfair to mention that Portis ran for 1591 yards and it came in only 13 games. I think it's safe to assume he would've gotten to at least 1700 yards if he'd played in the other 3 games. And there's a good chance he would've been in the 1800 or 1900 range. He averaged 5.5 yards/carry on the carries he did have, too...which is better than any average Davis had. He had plenty of touchdowns.

When you look at it that way, it closes the gap between Davis and the other backs even further. As it is, Davis only had 1 2,000 yard season. His 1538 yard, 13 TD season in 1996 certainly doesn't blow any of his successors away.

His 1750 and 15 in the 1997 season isn't all that much further ahead...although he did it in only 15 games. Something tells me if I mentioned Davis missing a game in 1997, nobody would be complaining, since it helps their guy.

Would Davis have had 1800 or 1900 yards that season if he'd played in that missing game? Probably. But that's the pace Portis was on in 2003, and it's not far ahead of the pace Mike Anderson was on in 2000.

And that was his second best season.

You just can't effectively argue that these other backs "weren't nearly as productive." They clearly were. And they were all considered expendable, because at that point, Shanahan fully realized what they had on their hands with their scheme. That's probably why they traded Portis for Champ Bailey following his huge 2003 season, and it's probably why they were trying to trade Mike Anderson after his huge 2000 season.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:42 AM    (permalink
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Hey look, it's that bum Terrell Davis NOT performing against the Steelers in the 1997 AFC Championship game against the number one ranked defense in the league that season against the run in total yards and yards per attempt.

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Old 01-06-2013, 06:46 AM    (permalink
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Hey look, it's that bum Terrell Davis NOT performing against the Steelers in the 1997 AFC Championship game against the number one ranked defense in the league that season against the run in total yards and yards per attempt.

Untouched.

Oh, and look who gets caught from behind in the open field!

Thanks for helping me out, Ness. The more plays you show of Davis running through gaping holes untouched, the better I look.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:05 AM    (permalink
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Dafaq? This Terrell Davis dude is persistent. How dare he barrel roll his way into the endzone against the top ranked defense in the NFL against the run...and how dare he follow his lead blocks towards paydirt while showing his shiftiness by making a nice cutback towards the inside!!!! Clearly, he was a charlatan!!! He was barely touched so it doesn't count!



Perhaps he should have attended University of Kansas instead of Georgia. Then he would have really been special! Wait no...dude probably would have ended up being an obnoxious troll in cyberspace in his late twenties believing they know everything when in reality they really don't.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:57 AM    (permalink
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I'm so glad JT has moved on. The funny thing is that his argument is the exact same slow, system, lowly drafted, every trait you say someone possesses is somehow some made up 'intangible' that has no bearing on the football field, and every video you show of someone performing is somehow a result of great blocking, a favorable matchup, or a blown assignment.
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Old 01-06-2013, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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I've turned in papers shorter than many posts in this thread. Sometimes I wish we followed twitter rules.
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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For the record Terrell Davis has some damn good barbeque sauce too.
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