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Old 01-09-2013, 08:27 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Thing is our DL isn't going to dominate without some fresh blood at DE and another DT. If our DL can't dominate doesn't matter how bad our LBs are. But if we do bring in a rookie like Jordan, Ansah or any of a slew of quality pass rushers in this draft, with JPP, Kiwi and Ojomo, and draft a DT to push Canty and Joseph our DL could dominate again. Then JWill, Chase and some middling FA or third round LB could be more than enough.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:28 PM    (permalink
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And there are no Bobby Wagner types. Greene and Brown are the 2 best LBers (4-3) in this draft and they're both outside guys IMO
I'm note sure on Brown yet, he played inside in college and he is around 6'1 230 so he is already similar size to guys like Vilma, Beason and Ryans.
With a good predraft workout regime, he could probably add 5-10lb of muscle without too much hassle.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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Thing is our DL isn't going to dominate without some fresh blood at DE and another DT. If our DL can't dominate doesn't matter how bad our LBs are. But if we do bring in a rookie like Jordan, Ansah or any of a slew of quality pass rushers in this draft, with JPP, Kiwi and Ojomo, and draft a DT to push Canty and Joseph our DL could dominate again. Then JWill, Chase and some middling FA or third round LB could be more than enough.
Well ideally we get a DLmen. But in the event that a guy isn't there for us, why not evaluate LBs?

We're not gonna fill all our needs this year. But I want BPA in a need. So I rather get a guy who's a high graded LB vs just taking a DLmen just to get one.

It really depends on the board.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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I'm note sure on Brown yet, he played inside in college and he is around 6'1 230 so he is already similar size to guys like Vilma, Beason and Ryans.
With a good predraft workout regime, he could probably add 5-10lb of muscle without too much hassle.
I love love love love Brown. He probably can play MLB but I think he's best suited outside.

but yeah, I'm with Rose. I'm all about the fresh blood up front. it's desperately needed.

But then, you know. Khaseem.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:37 PM    (permalink
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Thing is our DL isn't going to dominate without some fresh blood at DE and another DT. If our DL can't dominate doesn't matter how bad our LBs are. But if we do bring in a rookie like Jordan, Ansah or any of a slew of quality pass rushers in this draft, with JPP, Kiwi and Ojomo, and draft a DT to push Canty and Joseph our DL could dominate again. Then JWill, Chase and some middling FA or third round LB could be more than enough.
We need immediate impact on the DL and really can't wait for a rookie to impact imho.

I's like to see a couple of good value free agents. The type of guys I have in mind are

DE Michael Bennett (who will reportedly give a discount to play here), I would bring him in to compete with Tuck and getting a fair share of the LDE reps.
Kiwi is strictly a RDE imho and should do a similar rotation at RDE with JPP. We still have Tracy, Trattou and Ojomo to compete for a spot.

As for DT, I'd look at Glenn Dorsey, who could rotate with Joseph at UT; we have decent youngsters in Kuhn nd maybe Austin. I'd be ok with bringing someone cheap like Sammie Lee Hill or Sedrick Ellis into the mix as well.

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Old 01-09-2013, 08:54 PM    (permalink
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I also like michael buchanan out of illinois at DE. perhaps a 2nd round guy.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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I also like michael buchanan out of illinois at DE. perhaps a 2nd round guy.
With the DE depth this year, he is currently somewhere around the 3rd/4th round at the moment. That could change if he blows up the predraft process.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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If we are relying on a Bennett/Tuck platoon opposite JPP, kid's gunna get shut down again next year. Tuck needs to be gone and Kiwi needs to be platooning with a gifted rookie. Sure if we can get Dorsey cheap then we'd be all right on the inside, but I doubt we do much in FA.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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If we are relying on a Bennett/Tuck platoon opposite JPP, kid's gunna get shut down again next year. Tuck needs to be gone and Kiwi needs to be platooning with a gifted rookie. Sure if we can get Dorsey cheap then we'd be all right on the inside, but I doubt we do much in FA.
From everything Jerry Reese is saying, it isn't likely that Tuck is gone

(unless Reese is trying to build up Tuck's trade value).

I don't think a rookie, whatever his talent, is going to get enough reps to make a difference, particularly if he has to compete with Kiwanuka for rotational snaps.

You only have to look at how much Pierre-Paul played as a rookie.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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JPP actually had a big impact as a rookie. Someone like Jordan or Ansah could certainly make an impact rotating with Kiwi.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:27 AM    (permalink
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If we are relying on a Bennett/Tuck platoon opposite JPP, kid's gunna get shut down again next year. Tuck needs to be gone and Kiwi needs to be platooning with a gifted rookie. Sure if we can get Dorsey cheap then we'd be all right on the inside, but I doubt we do much in FA.
JPP needs to do his own thing regardless of who's on the other side. A Tuck/Bennett platoon is plenty good.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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JPP needs to do his own thing regardless of who's on the other side. A Tuck/Bennett platoon is plenty good.


Yeah that was from the Reese presser about JPP learning to be productive and do well even.when teams are doubling and chipping him!
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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We need more from JPP but we also need more from the other side otherwise no matter how well JPP does our defense won't be able to beast when we need them. I'll be very disappointed if we don't take advantage of this stacked DE draft and get ourselves a new huge ceilinged DE.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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JPP's issues were multiple:

1. He simply hit a wall. It happens with raw players. He needs to learn how to adjust to the extra blockers.

2. He put on too much weight this offseason. Fewell wanted to use him inside a lot to alter passing lanes so he packed on weight to do so, but also lost a lot of burst in the process

3. We're putting too much on his plate. Let's be real about something here, JPP is a dumb dude. Why are we moving him around so much? Just let him play at RE, and let him ball. He clearly is at his best when he plays RE. Sometimes coaches overthink things. Stop trying to outsmart everybody on every play, and just put your players in their best positions to succeed. Let the athletes make you look smart instead of trying to constantly reinvent the wheel.

JPP needs to stay at RE all 3 downs, and he needs to get back to his 2011 weight so he can maximize his potential regarding that.

I hope the coaching staff realizes this. With Osi gone, there's no reason why JPP shouldn't be at RE all 3 downs this coming season.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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If Bennett comes on the cheap because of Marty I am all for it.

I like Michael Bennett, I actually think he is Tampa's best DE, and he would be an upgrade over Tuck's walking cadaver and probably over Kiwi full time at LE.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Eh, I want my DEs to be elite. I don't want to invest in a DE if he's not a study or potentially a stud. That's why I like drafting athletes at DE and building our pass rush that way.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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Eh, I want my DEs to be elite. I don't want to invest in a DE if he's not a study or potentially a stud. That's why I like drafting athletes at DE and building our pass rush that way.
I agree, but Bennett will likely just be a stop-gap till we either find or develop that elite guy. I think we can offer both Bennetts similar deals for similar years and it should not be too expensive.

Tuck is worthless, and Kiwi is a good platoon guy. I don't think Kiwi would be able to start at RE let alone LE and be an every down guy. Bennett would be able to play LE, which he plays in Tampa, and be efficient while we are developing, say, an Ansah from this draft, or if we have to wait for a freak in next years draft.

This will also keep Marty B happy who is quickly becoming one my favorite Giants. This would also do as you say, allow JPP to play at RE not LE, which is something I agree with.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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I agree, but Bennett will likely just be a stop-gap till we either find or develop that elite guy. I think we can offer both Bennetts similar deals for similar years and it should not be too expensive.

Tuck is worthless, and Kiwi is a good platoon guy. I don't think Kiwi would be able to start at RE let alone LE and be an every down guy. Bennett would be able to play LE, which he plays in Tampa, and be efficient while we are developing, say, an Ansah from this draft, or if we have to wait for a freak in next years draft.

This will also keep Marty B happy who is quickly becoming one my favorite Giants. This would also do as you say, allow JPP to play at RE not LE, which is something I agree with.
Why not just play Kiwi? Kiwi can play LE, he's very long and has always used his great length to be effective vs the run. I don't see how Bennett is any upgrade over Kiwi and we save money by just going with Kiwi.

That will also give whatever rookie we draft more snaps in his rookie year as he develops.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Why not just play Kiwi? Kiwi can play LE, he's very long and has always used his great length to be effective vs the run. I don't see how Bennett is any upgrade over Kiwi and we save money by just going with Kiwi.

That will also give whatever rookie we draft more snaps in his rookie year as he develops.
I love Kiwi. But if there is one player the Giants coaching staff developed poorly it was him.

I just don't know if he can play LE effectively. Yeah he's long but he's been looking more and more like a linebacker every year. I guess if we platoon him with Tuck, Kiwi should be fine, but Tuck just doesn't do anything anymore. He barely even tries. I don't want a player like that on the field. I just feel like a move to bring back Tuck is just wrong, he loafs around too much and even the game he does decide to bring it, he has not been that great anyway. If were gonna be loyal to the guy he better be coming back dirt cheap.

Even if Kiwi CAN play LE, I still think Bennett could play it better. I do not believe we should break bank on this guy, but if he's a bargain we better nab him.

I don't care about rookie snaps. Coughlin won't give the rookie snaps regardless. Unless there is no other option like in Wilson's case. I am not worried we seem to always develop our top picks fine. Our later round picks are usually lackluster.

2007: Ross (Solid starter/nickel), Steve Smith (Great until injury)
2008: Kenny Philips (Starting Safety), Terrell Thomas (Great until injury)
2009: Hakeem Nicks (Starting receiver), Clint Sintim (BUST), William Beatty (looked like a bust till this year)
2010: JPP and Linval defensive starters.
2011: Prince (looking good), Austin (looking bad)

JR is money in the first two rounds, especially round 1, his worst pick is Ross and he was still a solid player and super bowl winner. If we draft a DE in round 1 I am not worried he'll be fine. The reps won't matter as long as JR picked him and Coughlin is the coach.

It's after round 2 where JR becomes mortal again. He's got some gems like Bradshaw, Boss, Ballard (UDFA), Cruz (UDFA), Manningham. But he has alot of questionable picks as well... Bomar, Woodson, Beckum, those two corners in 09' we cut almost immediately.

I am not doubt spoiled as he is a fantastic GM, but again... this is the Giants were talking about... rookies don't play... rookie snaps are irrelevant.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Eh, most of the picks that don't work out still made sense at the time, even if hindsight proves that they would not work out. Like Bomar, Woodson, Beckum, Sintim, Barden, etc.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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I don't want Tuck back either but he's coming back unfortunately. I can only hope that he comes back as a 3rd down interior pass rush specialist only. That's what I hope for.

But realistically we're starting Tuck at LE again next year. Which sucks but what can ya do.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Eh, most of the picks that don't work out still made sense at the time, even if hindsight proves that they would not work out. Like Bomar, Woodson, Beckum, Sintim, Barden, etc.
No I agree. Except with the Woodson and Bomar picks... I didn't like those but I get we were looking for a back-up.

I was just emphasizing how great he is in round 1.

Other than Bradshaw (and if you count Cruz) none of his later selections have really been crucial to the team. Boss was nice but replaceable.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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I think people fail to realize just how rare it is to hit on good players beyond the first few rounds. Happens every year, but dramatically so by any means.

The big thing these days is finding those small school guys and scouting them. They have started to make a big impact in the NFL.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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Just a thought

If we are unable to afford to resign Kenny Phillips, is it worth putting the franchise tage on him and trading him, perhaps for a 2nd round pick?

The safety free agency group and draft class doesn't have a lot of elite talent, I could see teams like Miami, Cincinnati and St Louis being interested.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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Here is an article I found on the Seahawks defence

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2012/5/7/2...lity-diversity

I really wish we played something like this.
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