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Old 01-09-2013, 11:41 PM    (permalink
TheFinisher
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Originally Posted by CowboysBeastMode View Post
chicago offense line was as bad our's and they have less skill talent yet they got to 9-1 why their defense. u can say our defense kept the game close but name me one time the defense made any game changing plays to actually win games
Pittsburgh. Philly (twice). Carolina. Cincinnati.

For about 60 mins against TB.

I can also name the games our offense/ST singlehandedly self destructed in.

NYG. WASH. SEA. CHI.

ATL our D held that offense to 6 points through almost 3 quarters and our own offense could not do a damn thing to take advantage, so yea I pin that on them too. Didn't have the dumb turnovers here, just thorough suckage for 60 minutes.

1st Giants game was a total team win, 1st WASH game was total team loss, BAL was total team loss with a signature JG game management butcher job.

I'll give you NO as a game to pin on the D, but the offense went ghost for over a quarter in that game too.

The D was not the reason we missed the playoffs this year.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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Pittsburgh. Philly (twice). Carolina. Cincinnati.

For about 60 mins against TB.

I can also name the games our offense/ST singlehandedly self destructed in.

NYG. WASH. SEA. CHI.

ATL our D held that offense to 6 points through almost 3 quarters and our own offense could not do a damn thing to take advantage, so yea I pin that on them too. Didn't have the dumb turnovers here, just thorough suckage for 60 minutes.

1st Giants game was a total team win, 1st WASH game was total team loss, BAL was total team loss with a signature JG game management butcher job.

I'll give you NO as a game to pin on the D, but the offense went ghost for over a quarter in that game too.

The D was not the reason we missed the playoffs this year.
NYG, WASH, SEA, CHI defense forced a combined 2 turnovers in those and they were off tipped balls yeah you gave 6 points to atlanta (should have been 12 since atl's kicker missed to chip shots) yet the one td they give up is bc rob ryan can't the personnel on the field on a 3 and 14 they get an easy 24 yards get the momentum and score their only td (and when offense got a td and they needed a stop they gave up 5 third down conversions and gave up fg and left no time for the offense

if you wanna give a pass for rob ryan for injuries then you should give a pass for jason garrett bc the offensive line was completely gone by the third day of training camp and they no chemistry on continuity at all to start the season and it showed, the 1 game they had all their guys backs they set a franchise most rushing yards against a baltimore defense.

rob ryan was given everything he asked to make a defense that pressure offense, create confusion for qbs and could force turnovers and ultimately even when all the guys were healthy they were only slighty above average. they gave 34 points at home to nick foles and almost brandon weeden look like john elway. even in the washington yeah romo thru the pick that doomed us, but rg3 was not healthy and couldnt beat us, so instead rob let alfred morris beat us instead. he's great soundbite but he's not as good his father or his brother

its been over 24 hours rob i thought u said i would only take 5 minutes to get a job

the defense isn't the SINGLE reason we missed the playoffs but the defense definetely wasn't the reason we stayed afloat to even have a chance either. there alot d-coordinators better than rob he overrated

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Old 01-10-2013, 01:02 AM    (permalink
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Excusing the offense and blaming this season on the DC doesn't make sense to me either Finisher. I think it's a completely one sided view of the truth, but I know why it was done.

Those words Jerry was babbling makes him sound like an ignorant fool. I tend to defend Jerry most of the time, and I even defend him in this decision to make changes happen this offseason. But when he does dumb stuff, I have no problems calling him out on it. I will comment him on good and bash him on bad. This time his comments were just stupid. ...but his decision on forcing change... I'm ok with, even if I think firing Rob wasn't deserved. Maybe it had to happen in order to fully make Garrett "the man".
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:31 AM    (permalink
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Excusing the offense and blaming this season on the DC doesn't make sense to me either Finisher. I think it's a completely one sided view of the truth, but I know why it was done.

Those words Jerry was babbling makes him sound like an ignorant fool. I tend to defend Jerry most of the time, and I even defend him in this decision to make changes happen this offseason. But when he does dumb stuff, I have no problems calling him out on it. I will comment him on good and bash him on bad. This time his comments were just stupid. ...but his decision on forcing change... I'm ok with, even if I think firing Rob wasn't deserved. Maybe it had to happen in order to fully make Garrett "the man".
It all makes sense the minute that JG loses offensive play calling duties. It means Jerry is looking at the components that were wrong last season and attempting to fix them. And from my personal point of view.

Defensive issues on 3rd down and again TACKLING continued to be an issue as much as they have been in the past. Thus Rob had to go.

Offensive playcalling was bad. If JG loses this role then Jerry is pushing to fix two of the components that were problems last season.

The last issue would be turnovers(both sides of the ball) The team must work harder for strips. And they have to protect Romo from those games where he is likely to implode.(Chicago). Not necessarily fixing the O-Line although that would be nice. But making an adjustment to the offensive game plan when you can see that happening.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:43 AM    (permalink
Trogdor
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Excusing the offense and blaming this season on the DC doesn't make sense to me either Finisher. I think it's a completely one sided view of the truth, but I know why it was done.

Those words Jerry was babbling makes him sound like an ignorant fool. I tend to defend Jerry most of the time, and I even defend him in this decision to make changes happen this offseason. But when he does dumb stuff, I have no problems calling him out on it. I will comment him on good and bash him on bad. This time his comments were just stupid. ...but his decision on forcing change... I'm ok with, even if I think firing Rob wasn't deserved. Maybe it had to happen in order to fully make Garrett "the man".
Nothing to do with being "the man". Rob is an excellent "bend but don't break" DC. His personality, and his willingness to take ALL blame for his defensive players make him a complete mismatch to Jason Garrett. Garrett wants the players to own every mistake while Rob in that sense coddles them and allows it to be the coaches fault. Jason is a reserved, quiet, calculated personality while Rob is a fiery, short-tempered, and outspoken to a fault.

Point blank we have been among the league worst in generating turnovers and Rob is certainly taking the fall for the defense failing to adjust in the last 2 games.

Need to find the article again but if you analyse what Jerry Jones said it looks like the internal meeting between him, Garrett, Stephen, etc came to the conclusion that Rob's schemes did not generate enough turnover opportunities and that his exotic schemes allowed gaps in the defense that were too easily attacked. This and the lack of adjustment all year to plays going to the HB/FB out of the backfield on passing downs accounted for the need to make a philosophical scheme change.

Essentially I don't agree with the move to fire him but I understand it from that perspective.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:08 AM    (permalink
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LOL.
.
.
.
Jerrah doing a witch hunt when the problem is in the mirror..
.
.
.
Again and again. Same old Cowboys.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:38 AM    (permalink
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LOL.
.
.
.
Jerrah doing a witch hunt when the problem is in the mirror..
.
.
.
Again and again. Same old Cowboys.
Oh great, I hope this isn't who I think it is. Guess I better brace myself for another 10 page war having little to nothing to do about the Cowboys before Bob gets banned again.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:16 AM    (permalink
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Oh great, I hope this isn't who I think it is. Guess I better brace myself for another 10 page war having little to nothing to do about the Cowboys before Bob gets banned again.
What did we all expect. He is never actually banned anyway. When Dez was tearing up the 2nd half of the league he was nowhere to be found but now is the perfect time to come back around and be mr. I was always right 100% of the time.



Anyway, listening to Jerry talk about the Seattle game and Chicago game as references for why Rob Ryan was fired was hysterical. I really hope he's not going down the Al Davis route in terms of just going senile.


The Seattle game we were down 10 before it even started due to fumbling a kickoff and a blocked punt. Murray got 12 carries. We started off in a hole and were unbalanced from the get go. Also the offense was able to score a measly 7 points that game. SEVEN. Our offense was literally non existent this game.


Then you have the Chicago game and the infamous 5 INT game from Romo. What team is going to win when you throw 5 picks? Unless those 14 points they got from Romo INT's doesn't make a difference(we did lose by 16 points after all) and the other 3 which stalled drives and gave them unbelieveable field position all game. Or how about when Ware forced a fumble on Cutler, then as soon as we got the ball back we turned it over and gave them a defensive TD?


On what planet do you have to be living on, to cite these games as reasons why the defense was a problem? Or am I missing something here? I don't mind changes, but can the reasoning at least make sense or is that too much to ask?
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:48 AM    (permalink
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This article was from right after the Seahawks game this year and it gives some insight on why the Seattle game was cited: http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dal...econd-half.ece

An excerpt from the article:

The Cowboys’ offense had to sit and watch as the defense melted. They ran only six offensive plays in the fourth quarter, half of which came in the final 36 seconds. No wonder Dallas’ scoring offense is fourth-worst in the NFL.

Time of possession might not be everything in the NFL, but it’s hard to score on defense.

The Cowboys already have allowed five drives of five minutes or more this season. Last year, the Cowboys didn’t give up their fifth drive of five-plus minutes until the seventh game of the season.

Over their first two games this season, the Cowboys’ defense has given up second-half touchdown drives of 90, 89, 88 and 79 yards.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:26 AM    (permalink
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Nothing to do with being "the man". Rob is an excellent "bend but don't break" DC. His personality, and his willingness to take ALL blame for his defensive players make him a complete mismatch to Jason Garrett. Garrett wants the players to own every mistake while Rob in that sense coddles them and allows it to be the coaches fault. Jason is a reserved, quiet, calculated personality while Rob is a fiery, short-tempered, and outspoken to a fault.

Point blank we have been among the league worst in generating turnovers and Rob is certainly taking the fall for the defense failing to adjust in the last 2 games.

Need to find the article again but if you analyse what Jerry Jones said it looks like the internal meeting between him, Garrett, Stephen, etc came to the conclusion that Rob's schemes did not generate enough turnover opportunities and that his exotic schemes allowed gaps in the defense that were too easily attacked. This and the lack of adjustment all year to plays going to the HB/FB out of the backfield on passing downs accounted for the need to make a philosophical scheme change.

Essentially I don't agree with the move to fire him but I understand it from that perspective.
i agree alot of what you said but u should take it next step foward, the cowboys settled for rob ryan, they wanted greg manusky and ray horton but those guys took jobs elsewhere, and thought was just like you said well if rob and his aggressive style of defense (he's not a bend but dont break coach imo) would result in more turnovers and splash on defense they would look past the obvious difference in personalities from jg to rr. so 2 years in dead last in ints 27 overall in takeaways, and the other constant miscommunication that has persisted.

to me all it means is the pressure on jg to get it done bc jj doesn't want fire him but will have to if the result, and alot u would say that the problem jj want to protect his guy but at the same time u can't ignore the the fact that over the last 15 years the cowboys are tied with cle and oak for the most head coaches that have been with the franchise. if we fire garrett the next coach will come in probably go 8-8 and we'll be in the same spot as in previous years, mediocre team changing over the roster to fit the new hc.

rob may not have been bad enough to say there should be no way he should be back, but rob didn't do enough, considering he wasn't the guy they really wanted. he can say he made a team that 31st in defense, wade phillips took a defense that 32 in defense and made them #1 in the league and that was without his best player in 1 year, what's rob's excuse
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:55 AM    (permalink
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Ed Werder says Monte Kiffin is the favorite to be the next DC. Put the odds at 70-30, so he's fairly confident in it.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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Ed Werder says Monte Kiffin is the favorite to be the next DC. Put the odds at 70-30, so he's fairly confident in it.
OMG. Kiffin sucks. If this goes down I will be livid. Please don't tell me the conversation went like this...

JG: "Let's fire Rob, we can get Monte Kiffin!"

If this ends up false, can somebody throw Werder in a can and roll him down a hill?

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Old 01-10-2013, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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i agree alot of what you said but u should take it next step foward, the cowboys settled for rob ryan, they wanted greg manusky and ray horton but those guys took jobs elsewhere, and thought was just like you said well if rob and his aggressive style of defense (he's not a bend but dont break coach imo) would result in more turnovers and splash on defense they would look past the obvious difference in personalities from jg to rr. so 2 years in dead last in ints 27 overall in takeaways, and the other constant miscommunication that has persisted.

to me all it means is the pressure on jg to get it done bc jj doesn't want fire him but will have to if the result, and alot u would say that the problem jj want to protect his guy but at the same time u can't ignore the the fact that over the last 15 years the cowboys are tied with cle and oak for the most head coaches that have been with the franchise. if we fire garrett the next coach will come in probably go 8-8 and we'll be in the same spot as in previous years, mediocre team changing over the roster to fit the new hc.

rob may not have been bad enough to say there should be no way he should be back, but rob didn't do enough, considering he wasn't the guy they really wanted. he can say he made a team that 31st in defense, wade phillips took a defense that 32 in defense and made them #1 in the league and that was without his best player in 1 year, what's rob's excuse
Not sure where you're getting the idea that the Cowboys had the #1 defense in Wade's first year. #1 in what? The regular season was great, 13-3. The offense was awesome too. #2 in points and #3 in yards.

There really is no sense in arguing using stats as reference though. It goes both ways and they all have an effect on one another. You can't use stats to blame the offense for not scoring if the defense can't get them the ball back... and you can't use stats to blame the defense, if the offense turns the ball over all the time. This past year both the offense and the defense looked good at times and idiotic at times. The bottom line is that the firing of Rob wasn't based on results or his relationship with the players gone sour. It was a personnel indifference issue between HC and DC.

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Old 01-10-2013, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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ESPN says that JJ and JG are focusing attention to DC position on Monte Kiffin.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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There was a sense in the media early in the year that the defense was costing us games (Seattle, Chicago, Baltimore averaged about 30 a game) but in reality, the D was holding up scoring wise, but Romo and Special Teams were giving up scoring TDs left and right.

The offense didn't catch fire until later in the year and you can blame them by and large for the 3-5 start including Romo.

I'm not saying that Ryan was the main reason for missing the playoffs, but he's not elite. Neither is Monte f'n Kiffin, that would be bad. We'll see.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Why would Kiffin be bad? He was one of the best coordinators in the game for years with Tampa, and along with Dungy he headed up one of the best defenses of all time. He might be past his prime in a sense, but he's done some amazing things in his past that it wouldn't bother me at all. I do wonder why they wouldn't go after someone like Raheem Morris if they want to go with a Tampa 2 style of defense though since he was seen as someone who could be a great DC.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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Why would Kiffin be bad? He was one of the best coordinators in the game for years with Tampa, and along with Dungy he headed up one of the best defenses of all time. He might be past his prime in a sense, but he's done some amazing things in his past that it wouldn't bother me at all. I do wonder why they wouldn't go after someone like Raheem Morris if they want to go with a Tampa 2 style of defense though since he was seen as someone who could be a great DC.
Watching him run the USC defense has scared me enough. Not just that, he's developed no one... yet they've recruited 4-5 star talent across the board.

I'm curious... how many teams in the NFL still run the Tampa 2 as their base philosophy? Isn't it becoming a thing of the past since the NFL has started to protect their WRs more and more.

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Old 01-10-2013, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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Awesome. Had to guess this one. Let's bring in a DC whose strengths are the exact opposite of all of our building blocks on defense. This is going to be a depressing off-season *sigh*
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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Plus he's 73 years old. This doesn't make any sense at all.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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Plus he's 73 years old. This doesn't make any sense at all.
I seriously cannot believe this team can be THAT dumb.

I won't believe it until I see it.

I bet this has all to do with wanting more turnovers. Yeah well, hello dumb nuts in the front office... The league doesn't allow WRs to be blown up the way they used to. You're not getting turnovers like that anymore. If true, say hello to the new "Yellow Flag" defense. Woopie!

Oh yea... and btw, it's a "bend but don't break" defense. LMAO.

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Old 01-10-2013, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Awesome. Had to guess this one. Let's bring in a DC whose strengths are the exact opposite of all of our building blocks on defense. This is going to be a depressing off-season *sigh*
It really could be that bad. We already beefed up Sean Lee and Bruce Carter. Now what? We tell them to lose weight so they can be faster? We bought a $50M dollar man cover CB and a 1st rounder built to play mano a mano, only to incorporate soft zone coverage? For a defense that needs highly skilled safeties who can both cover and viciously hit, we sure are in for a big mess. How bout penetrating DTs? Do Marcus Spears and Kenyon Coleman come to mind? LOL. Wait Ratliff does... oh double wait... his injuries have put him past his prime and he's an overpaid cap casualty possibility. Oh yes! Let's bring on that Tampa 2! USC's defense was great at stopping spread offenses that are becoming more popular in the NFL. ...oh wait... nevermind, it didn't. It was great in the 1970's when teams ran the ball a lot and safeties used to be able to hit the living day lights outta ya. Hey, maybe the Cowboys are hoping the saying "History repeats itself" works in this situation hoping that old school style of football is returning.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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Watching him run the USC defense has scared me enough. Not just that, he's developed no one... yet they've recruited 4-5 star talent across the board.

I'm curious... how many teams in the NFL still run the Tampa 2 as their base philosophy? Isn't it becoming a thing of the past since the NFL has started to protect their WRs more and more.
I haven't watched USC games in a while. Maybe it's a case of him just doing it out of respect for his son and not adjusting too well in the college game. *shrugs shoulders*

With Carr I don't think that it would go against his game too much to play zone. Remember last year in training camp when people were wondering if he could play man? Now he's a strict man cover guy it seems. lol II saw Claiborne play well in zone in college, and it might benefit him because the Tampa 2 style really opens up the door for corners to get a lot of picks and he was a great ball hawk in college. This could work for both guys, so I'm not shooting it down just yet.

I agree with you about the NFL protecting their receivers though. Corners can't do much besides stare and watch now. Sometimes it seems like guys get called for illegal contact even when they're within five yards. On the flip side the guy could do wonders with Sean Lee and Brandon Carter. They're already damn good as it is, but in a Kiffin D they could be ******* amazing.

It's not a done deal yet, and I'm still holding out hope that Romeo Crennel somehow gets a call. I've always really liked the guy.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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If you guys want a bend but don't break defense, why can't you do us one solid and take Perry Fewell away from us?

I'll drive him to Dallas myself.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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I haven't watched USC games in a while. Maybe it's a case of him just doing it out of respect for his son and not adjusting too well in the college game. *shrugs shoulders*

With Carr I don't think that it would go against his game too much to play zone. Remember last year in training camp when people were wondering if he could play man? Now he's a strict man cover guy it seems. lol II saw Claiborne play well in zone in college, and it might benefit him because the Tampa 2 style really opens up the door for corners to get a lot of picks and he was a great ball hawk in college. This could work for both guys, so I'm not shooting it down just yet.

I agree with you about the NFL protecting their receivers though. Corners can't do much besides stare and watch now. Sometimes it seems like guys get called for illegal contact even when they're within five yards. On the flip side the guy could do wonders with Sean Lee and Brandon Carter. They're already damn good as it is, but in a Kiffin D they could be ******* amazing.

It's not a done deal yet, and I'm still holding out hope that Romeo Crennel somehow gets a call. I've always really liked the guy.
It's not that I have doubts Carr/Claiborne in zone. It's just you pay a pretty penny for them to be able to cover their guy on an island an open up the rest of your defense. In this scheme you're just asking them to cover their zone. I don't know.... I only know the Tampa 2 on the basic surface... but it just seems like a bad match and use of our resources that we already have.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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I think you guys are selling Kiffin short though. He's a HOF caliber DC (if coordinators were allowed in the Hall). Yes he's old as dirt, but his resume speaks for itself.

Look at how Tampa's defense fell apart when he left. Sometimes it goes beyond the Xs and Os.
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