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Old 01-09-2013, 03:58 PM    (permalink
brasho
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
You have to be kidding, there are college HC's who are great recruiters but poor coaches, Stoops(Oklahoma), Brown(Texas) and Kiffin(USC) as current examples, then their are good HC's who can coach but aren't the greatest recruiters (Snyder)Kansas St. and finally, you have the college HC's who are great recruiters and excellent coaches of which Saban leads the nation by a mile. The fact that some of his draftees don't pan shows just how great a college HC he is. When 10 players get drafted every year from Alabama, of course some won't pan out but most do exceptionally well.
No, Saban is a pretty good coach, far from great. He is the benefactor of being a great recruiter at a school that is traditionally a top recruiting school. The fact that his players are so impressive physically but don't pan out shows a lack of preparedness as they leave school. When marginally gifted prospects do well in the NFL, it is often a statement about the program they came from. Back when UVa was still sending prospects into round 1, their 1st rounders almost always panned out, but so too did undrafted and unheralded guys. They had great coaching, they were prepared to move. This was a testament to George Welsh and Al Groh in his first few years at the school. It was the biggest difference between UVa and Virginia Tech. Frank Beamer has always been a fantastic recruiter, but rarely have VT players seen the same kind of success at the NFL level as UVa players, despite being more gifted athletically and better on the college field.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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It's not a stable. Mark Ingram is a bust. Richardson might end up getting better. Yeldon might be good. Richardson wasn't even that impressive this season. Let at least one of them turn into a capable starter before you talk about a "stable."

****, right now Florida Atlantic University has a better "stable of runningbacks" in the NFL. At least Alfred Morris has done something.
Hahaha, I wasn't a fan of Richardson going into the draft despite numerous know-nothings claiming the Bucs should give up their draft if need be to get Richardson while I argued that Doug Martin was just as good (before the Bucs drafted him). I wonder what happened to all the Give Up the House for Richardson people now? For what the Bucs would've had to have given up to get Richardson, they wouldn't have been able to draft: Doug Martin, Mark Barron, and Lavonte David... Yeah, I think you can score one for common sense.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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Trent broke Jim Browns rookie rushing record and TD record behind a line that isn't all that but I guess that doesn't count....
Duhhh, how freaking dense are you? Brown still led the entire league in rushing that year, with his 942 yards in a 12 game season. The next closest RB had 700 yards. He got 242 more yards than the next closest player. On top of that, he averaged 1.1 yards more per rush (than Richardson had this past year) and was first team All-Pro.

Trent Richardson on the other hand got 950 yards in a 16 game season, was injured for the final game (Brown never missed a game in his entire career!) he finished 18th in the league in rushing. He was the 3rd leading rusher among ROOKIES!

You must be an Alabama homer, because no Cleveland fan would dare mention Trent Richardson's name in the same breath as the great Jim Brown... there is no comparison.

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Old 01-09-2013, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Trent broke Jim Browns rookie rushing record and TD record behind a line that isn't all that but I guess that doesn't count....
Oh yeah, and how could Richardson have broken Brown's rookie rushing record of 942 yards with 950 this season when Kevin Mack broke Jim Brown's rookie rushing record 25 years ago with 1104 rushing yards? That is truly astounding.

What happened, did he go back to the past in a time traveling hot tub and erase Kevin Mack's existence in addition to manipulating a squirrell to interfere with John Elway's famous Drive and send the Browns to the Super Bowl?
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:59 PM    (permalink
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Lmao why are you so damn angry? Thanks for the history lesson though. I don't care about the Browns or Jim Brown. And no I'm no homer. So again thanks for your positive contributions.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:07 PM    (permalink
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No, Saban is a pretty good coach, far from great. He is the benefactor of being a great recruiter at a school that is traditionally a top recruiting school. The fact that his players are so impressive physically but don't pan out shows a lack of preparedness as they leave school. When marginally gifted prospects do well in the NFL, it is often a statement about the program they came from. Back when UVa was still sending prospects into round 1, their 1st rounders almost always panned out, but so too did undrafted and unheralded guys. They had great coaching, they were prepared to move. This was a testament to George Welsh and Al Groh in his first few years at the school. It was the biggest difference between UVa and Virginia Tech. Frank Beamer has always been a fantastic recruiter, but rarely have VT players seen the same kind of success at the NFL level as UVa players, despite being more gifted athletically and better on the college field.
Do you honestly believe that Saban isn't one of the best coaches in college football? That is beyond ridiculous. The guy has won 3 national championships in 6 years with the program, I don't know what more you could ask for. Alabama was incredibly mediocre from the 2000's onward before Saban arrived, and within a couple years was a contender in the SEC again.

The performance of Alabama players in the NFL has nothing to do with Saban as a COLLEGE coach. Many of the Alabama players have failed due to being a knucklehead/lacking a work ethic. So in these cases I would argue the exact opposite, that Saban is a great coach, because he managed to keep these players motivated and in-line during their college careers. His only concern is winning games with the players he has using offensive and defensive systems that give the team the best chance to succeed. That is his objective because what good is it to churn out great NFL talent if your collegiate program sucks?

Some aspects of the schemes Alabama uses are not conducive to molding star NFL players. For example Dre Kirkpatrick admitted that he never had to backpedal in college, a skill that DB's in the NFL use regularly. Regardless, Alabama has fielded one of the best defenses in college football the last few years.

I'm no Saban or Alabama fanboy but you have to give credit where credit is due.

Back on topic, Alabama's pipeline of RB's lately is pretty impressive. Trent Richardson is one of the most punishing RB's I've seen in quite some time. It clearly takes its toll on him and I expect he will have a much shorter NFL career than the average back because of it. I hope I'm wrong but I doubt there will be much left in his tank by the time he's around 27 or 28.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:42 PM    (permalink
brasho
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Do you honestly believe that Saban isn't one of the best coaches in college football? That is beyond ridiculous. The guy has won 3 national championships in 6 years with the program, I don't know what more you could ask for. Alabama was incredibly mediocre from the 2000's onward before Saban arrived, and within a couple years was a contender in the SEC again.

The performance of Alabama players in the NFL has nothing to do with Saban as a COLLEGE coach. Many of the Alabama players have failed due to being a knucklehead/lacking a work ethic. So in these cases I would argue the exact opposite, that Saban is a great coach, because he managed to keep these players motivated and in-line during their college careers. His only concern is winning games with the players he has using offensive and defensive systems that give the team the best chance to succeed. That is his objective because what good is it to churn out great NFL talent if your collegiate program sucks?

Some aspects of the schemes Alabama uses are not conducive to molding star NFL players. For example Dre Kirkpatrick admitted that he never had to backpedal in college, a skill that DB's in the NFL use regularly. Regardless, Alabama has fielded one of the best defenses in college football the last few years.

I'm no Saban or Alabama fanboy but you have to give credit where credit is due.

Back on topic, Alabama's pipeline of RB's lately is pretty impressive. Trent Richardson is one of the most punishing RB's I've seen in quite some time. It clearly takes its toll on him and I expect he will have a much shorter NFL career than the average back because of it. I hope I'm wrong but I doubt there will be much left in his tank by the time he's around 27 or 28.
75% of college football is recruiting, plain and simple. Saban is a fantastic recruiter. He isn't an innovator, he isn't a brazen game day general and rarely, if ever has he gone into a game, in college, with less talent than his opponent, and rarely has he had to overcome in game adversity in college. Those are the hallmarks of being a great coach, not coming in with the best players from the best recruiting classes year in and year out and then being physically dominant. The last time Saban entered any season with the same or less talent than the opponents he was facing was when he was a mediocre NFL coach and went 8-8 and 9-7 with the Dolphins. Before that, he was pretty good with LSU, which was also an easy recruiting station where he only went 48-16 over 5 seasons (though he did win one Natl championship) and before that he was an unimpressive 34-24-1 at Michigan St., where he had to rely more on is coaching than recruiting abilities. It's no accident that as Saban has been around, he has continually advanced to the next great job. Alabama is one of the greatest college football jobs in America and one of the easiest recruits in the nation. Saban isn't going anywhere, there are few colleges in America where it is easier to be a recruiting power.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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And as far as him getting the most out of players with questionable work ethic...a questionable work ethic is fine in college, where in loaded places like Alabama, being physically superior to the competition is enough to win. Even guys with questionable work ethic still work some in college, it's when they get to the pros that they fall behind due to the poor habits they were able to get away with in college. A great college coach brings out the best performance in his players and doesn't allow them to be content with being the superior athlete. A great college coach sends their players onto the pros with great fundamentals, a strong work ethic, and excellent football knowledge.

Greg Schiano was one of those coaches in college. His players came to the NFL more mature, more motivated, and more fundamentally sound that far more publicized programs. Jim Harbaugh did the same thing at Stanford.

How you could possibly mistake being a great recruiter with being a great coach is beyond me. During the 80s and early 90s, I don't think there was a better recruiter in the nation and worse coach than WVU's Don Nehlen. The guy could flat out recruit. Stud Florida athletes all over the place... and yet the program rarely turned out good. solid, fundamentally sound pros.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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Lmao why are you so damn angry? Thanks for the history lesson though. I don't care about the Browns or Jim Brown. And no I'm no homer. So again thanks for your positive contributions.
So let me get this straight... I'm angry because you don't know what you're talking about and talk exclusively out of your ass? That makes me angry> Actually, I think it is hilarious. You're way off there, buddy.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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Also keep in mind they still have former 5 star but oft-injured Dee Hart on their team.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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So let me get this straight... I'm angry because you don't know what you're talking about and talk exclusively out of your ass? That makes me angry> Actually, I think it is hilarious. You're way off there, buddy.
Well you felt the need to call me dense, homer and "buddy" when you know absolutely nothing about me or my posting habits. I made the statement about Trent breaking the rush record based off what I've read in the media. They need to give the guy you mentioned some credit since he actually does have the record. Your magical hot tub reference was lacking in taste as well but I'll give you points for the imagination. Glad you could get in some good internet laughs today though on the all so serious NFLDC forums.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:08 PM    (permalink
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Well you felt the need to call me dense, homer and "buddy" when you know absolutely nothing about me or my posting habits. I made the statement about Trent breaking the rush record based off what I've read in the media. They need to give the guy you mentioned some credit. Your magical hot tub reference was lacking in taste as well but I'll give you points for the imagination. Glad you could get in some good internet laughs today though on the all so serious NFLDC forums.
Ha ha ha. I think you got another point wrong. The idea you said you gave me points for imagination I ripped off of the movie "Hot Tub Time Machine"... so I don't think I should get ANY points for imagination, but it definitely wasn't lacking in taste. That was a solid comedy. Not one of John Cusack's best comedic works (Better Off Dead, Say Anything, One Crazy Summer), but definitely a good one. You don't need me to school you on the finer points of Cusack, do you... pal... (do you prefer that over "buddy"?)?
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Naw I knew what movie it was from. Come on now I'm not one of these old heads who post on here either. I still need to go see Django.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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Naw I knew what movie it was from. Come on now I'm not one of these old heads who post on here either. I still need to go see Django.
Now you're talkig RedBox.... of course when the children are seven and nine we (the wife and I) get to about one movie a year... and it had better be damn good.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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Well you felt the need to call me dense, homer and "buddy" when you know absolutely nothing about me or my posting habits. I made the statement about Trent breaking the rush record based off what I've read in the media. They need to give the guy you mentioned some credit since he actually does have the record. Your magical hot tub reference was lacking in taste as well but I'll give you points for the imagination. Glad you could get in some good internet laughs today though on the all so serious NFLDC forums.
Hey, what gives... you told me you WEREN'T an Alabama homer, and then I went on to give you some positive rep and it turns out your user page is a personal shrine to Alabama... Homer, is that you? LOL
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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Hahaha naw I only changed it up since I was getting flack for just being "all about soccer" even though I post the most in all of the football forums and more of a shrine for a fallen brother I helped lay to rest after the storms in Tuscaloosa.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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[quote=brasho;3239485]No, Saban is a pretty good coach, far from great. He is the benefactor of being a great recruiter at a school that is traditionally a top recruiting school. The fact that his players are so impressive physically but don't pan out shows a lack of preparedness as they leave school.

This is utter rubbish, the guy has won 3 out of the last 4 National Championships, to suggest he isn't a great college HC is ridiculous.

He sends 10+players a year to pro football, and some teams with poor drafting GM's overrate their potential but for the most part his top prospects become stars at the next level.

How can you compare a Virginia to Alabama under Saban, they practically accomplished nothing on the college front and in their best years sent 2 or 3 guys at most to the pros and many of them came up short. Saban has sent 50+ players to the pros so of course some of them will fail to come up to expectations, some pro GM's and scouts realize how great a HC Saban is and therefore tend to overdraft his players because they know his players receive the best in coaching.

The thing that makes the SEC standout in college football isn't just its players, they have a collection of HC's who have proven track records as fine college HC's, 8 NC's iand counting, and Saban destroys them on a consistent basis.

If you keep going around insisting that Saban isn't a great college HC, you are going to have zero credibility on this site and any other site you post to.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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[quote=Iamcanadian;3239858]
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Originally Posted by brasho View Post
No, Saban is a pretty good coach, far from great. He is the benefactor of being a great recruiter at a school that is traditionally a top recruiting school. The fact that his players are so impressive physically but don't pan out shows a lack of preparedness as they leave school.

This is utter rubbish, the guy has won 3 out of the last 4 National Championships, to suggest he isn't a great college HC is ridiculous.

He sends 10+players a year to pro football, and some teams with poor drafting GM's overrate their potential but for the most part his top prospects become stars at the next level.

How can you compare a Virginia to Alabama under Saban, they practically accomplished nothing on the college front and in their best years sent 2 or 3 guys at most to the pros and many of them came up short. Saban has sent 50+ players to the pros so of course some of them will fail to come up to expectations, some pro GM's and scouts realize how great a HC Saban is and therefore tend to overdraft his players because they know his players receive the best in coaching.

The thing that makes the SEC standout in college football isn't just its players, they have a collection of HC's who have proven track records as fine college HC's, 8 NC's iand counting, and Saban destroys them on a consistent basis.

If you keep going around insisting that Saban isn't a great college HC, you are going to have zero credibility on this site and any other site you post to.
I'm thinking the point is too incredibly complex for you to understand. Saben = great recruiter and a pretty good coach. Winning national championships has a whole hell of a lot less to do with great coaching than it does to being a great recruiter. When Saban has been in situations where his talent level was the same or worse than the teams he played, he was not a huge winner. He was a .500 coach in the NFL with .500 talent... which is what he is... a mediocre NFL coach and a pretty good college coach. Bobby Bowden and Mack Brown won several Natl Championships despite the fact that tactically and fundamentally, they are not great football coaches. They were, however, great recruiters... and for a little while, Mack Brown had some talented coordinators.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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75% of college football is recruiting, plain and simple. Saban is a fantastic recruiter. He isn't an innovator, he isn't a brazen game day general and rarely, if ever has he gone into a game, in college, with less talent than his opponent, and rarely has he had to overcome in game adversity in college. Those are the hallmarks of being a great coach, not coming in with the best players from the best recruiting classes year in and year out and then being physically dominant. The last time Saban entered any season with the same or less talent than the opponents he was facing was when he was a mediocre NFL coach and went 8-8 and 9-7 with the Dolphins. Before that, he was pretty good with LSU, which was also an easy recruiting station where he only went 48-16 over 5 seasons (though he did win one Natl championship) and before that he was an unimpressive 34-24-1 at Michigan St., where he had to rely more on is coaching than recruiting abilities. It's no accident that as Saban has been around, he has continually advanced to the next great job. Alabama is one of the greatest college football jobs in America and one of the easiest recruits in the nation. Saban isn't going anywhere, there are few colleges in America where it is easier to be a recruiting power.
75% is recruiting? The difference between the talent Alabama brings in and that of other major football programs isn't nearly as large as you make it out to be. Since 2009, the University of Texas has had top 5 recruiting classes. Why haven't they been a contender for the national championship all those years? Assessing 75% of success to recruiting is idiotic. If you really think it's just a coincidence that Alabama has won so many NC's compared to other recruiting powerhouses then I truly feel sorry for you.

Good teams drop games against lesser opponents all the time, Alabama rarely does. They are a mentally tough team, which has a lot to do with preparation and coaching. Not only have they won 3 national championships but each victory has been by a pretty wide margin. They shut out LSU in the most important game of the season, and made Notre Dame look like a high school team.

Nick Saban is the highest paid coach in the NFL for a reason. If Schiano was the better coach he would have been snatched up by a big time program rather than stay at Rutgers for 10 years. Since 2000, Saban has won 4 National Championships. Bear Bryant is tied for the lead all time with 6 and he coached at Alabama for 24 years. Saban is in a good position to challenge that record.

In a situation where you think you're right and everyone else is wrong, you should reconsider whether your point is total ********.

This is a waste of my time because you're probably just trolling anyway. But hey, if you think your point is valid, go ahead and do a poll on the college football board and see what the results are.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:44 PM    (permalink
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I'm thinking the point is too incredibly complex for you to understand. Saben = great recruiter and a pretty good coach. Winning national championships has a whole hell of a lot less to do with great coaching than it does to being a great recruiter. When Saban has been in situations where his talent level was the same or worse than the teams he played, he was not a huge winner. He was a .500 coach in the NFL with .500 talent... which is what he is... a mediocre NFL coach and a pretty good college coach. Bobby Bowden and Mack Brown won several Natl Championships despite the fact that tactically and fundamentally, they are not great football coaches. They were, however, great recruiters... and for a little while, Mack Brown had some talented coordinators.
He was there for 2 seasons. Small sample size don't you think? I'd like to see anyone have an outstanding season with Joey Harrington and Gus Frerotte as your options at qb.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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This thread should be printed out and burned.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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Crazy Program! SICK RBs! Lacy is underrated
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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75% is recruiting? The difference between the talent Alabama brings in and that of other major football programs isn't nearly as large as you make it out to be. Since 2009, the University of Texas has had top 5 recruiting classes. Why haven't they been a contender for the national championship all those years? Assessing 75% of success to recruiting is idiotic. If you really think it's just a coincidence that Alabama has won so many NC's compared to other recruiting powerhouses then I truly feel sorry for you.

Good teams drop games against lesser opponents all the time, Alabama rarely does. They are a mentally tough team, which has a lot to do with preparation and coaching. Not only have they won 3 national championships but each victory has been by a pretty wide margin. They shut out LSU in the most important game of the season, and made Notre Dame look like a high school team.

Nick Saban is the highest paid coach in the NFL for a reason. If Schiano was the better coach he would have been snatched up by a big time program rather than stay at Rutgers for 10 years. Since 2000, Saban has won 4 National Championships. Bear Bryant is tied for the lead all time with 6 and he coached at Alabama for 24 years. Saban is in a good position to challenge that record.

.
Uhh, maybe you didn't read the ponit I made about Mack Brown being a great recruiter and a horrible coach. It's on this same page... it isn't hard to find, I know you can do it if you tried.

Saban isn't the highest paid coach in the NFL, as you stated. He is the highest paid coach in college for a reason, he's a pretty good coach, and a fantastic recruiter.

Based on your logic, that winning in college proves coaching ability, you're saying Barry Switzer AND Steve Spurrier are great coaches, not simply excellent recruiters. Even though Switzer was gifted a Super Bowl, about 98% of Dallas fans can attest that Switzer was a pitiful head coach, and I didn't have to tell you what a disgrace Spurrier was in the NFL.

At no point in any of my posts did I say that Saban was bad, I stated he was pretty good, not great, not average, but what separated him was his excellence in recruiting.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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The best of the bunch to me is Yeldon too, he reminds me of Adrian Peterson.

When you watch how he cuts and moves, you would think he's about 5'10" 190 but he's 6'2" 210 and runs through people.
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