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Old 01-10-2013, 08:28 PM    (permalink
JordanTaber
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Originally Posted by BigBanger View Post
Again, the reading thing, you suck at it. I've said it time and time again that Shanahan has a GREAT system. Maybe if I put it in bold and capitalize it you will take notice this time. I've called him one of the best offensive minds in the NFL. Should I put that in bold? His eye for defensive talent? Pretty terrible, and it's the only reason why he hasn't found success without Elway and Davis orchestrating an unstoppable offense.
And yet you dismiss the effect this system had on Terrell Davis's production.

I never said you claimed otherwise regarding Shanahan. Once again, you're the one who sucks at reading.

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Well he has more career receiving yards than Olandis Gary, Mike Bell, Selvin Young and Reuben Droughns had rushing yards while they were in the Broncos system. Pretty weird huh?
You're just cherry picking the backs who either only had 1 year in Denver, or split carries with someone else for a year or two.

Yes, in 78 career games, Davis had more receiving yards than those guys had rushing yards in 35, 20, 23, and 47 games (and not nearly starts). Woo hoo. That really has a lot to do with what we're talking about.


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But, yeah, let's act like his 1,300+ receiving yards never happened.
Let's act like 1181 receiving yards in 4 seasons (295.3 yards/season) is impressive for a running back.

Was Davis a better receiving back than these other guys? Maybe. Slightly. But in the end, you're still talking about a run-of-the-mill rusher and receiving back.


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Guess they should have stayed healthy or earned a starting job like Davis did. You're the moron that wants to compare these guys to TD. Not me. I think it is stupid, very stupid, but you insist on claiming these guys were equals to Davis. Fact is they weren't. You are the only person in the entire world that would make this stupid argument.
Like Davis did? Davis blew out his knee after 4 seasons, and in only 2 of his 4 seasons did he play every game.

You're using a durability argument. In support of TERRELL DAVIS.


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Stop talking.
After you.

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Yeah they did.
No, they didn't. Already established how they didn't.

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Why? What stats do we use, Bobo? The stats that you want?
How about the stats that are actually relevant?

Oh, no, wait. We should totally use the stats that you want instead. It's only fair to look at blatantly distorted numbers. Take Joe Montana, for example. Man did he suck in 1979. He only threw for 96 yards and 1 TD that YEAR. Failure.


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Let's keep it simple and just show what they did while they were in Denver? And I'm just using Davis' first four years because what he did after that was unimportant, kinda like the careers of every running back thats followed Davis in Denver. Make sense? Keep up Mitch.
When have I used anything that wasn't in Denver, other than mentioning that all the backs who tore it up in Denver were ineffective when they left?


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No. It's not. You did math earlier, for some stupid reason, so let's try some more. 1 RB plays in 2005. That's call his season. Another RB plays in 2005. That's his season. 1 + 1 = 2. 2 seasons!!!!!
You still don't understand how a running back tandem works.

Damn you, Tatum Bell. You only got 921 yards and 8 TDs in 2005. How dare you. You should have had 1500-2000 yards like Terrell Davis, but, alas, despite averaging 5.3 yards/carry, you just were no Terrell Davis. It is your fault Shanahan rotated you with Mike Anderson, and the two of you combined to post 1935 rushing yards and 20 TDs that year. Let's just ignore that the Broncos had the 2nd best running game in the NFL that year and reached the AFC Championship game...despite the fact that you and Anderson were actually just journeyman-caliber backs.



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A bunch of guys obviously needed to have their best seasons added together and then compared to Davis's career numbers. If I take a bunch of Steelers RBs over a decade and then compared them to a four year stint of Bettis', I bet I could make Bam Morris and Barry Foster sound like better RBs, or make Bettis sound like a complete fraud. Or maybe compare them to Franco Harris. Maybe he's a fraud too. How about you start searching those stats. Hurry up. I got bed time in 30 minutes.
No, they didn't need that at all. When you add them all together in the way you did, with "19 years" (LOL!) they blow Davis out of the water.

I never tried to argue that their numbers would blow Davis out of the water, or even exceed Davis in the first place. I argued they had comparable numbers. They don't need all their "years" added together. You can dump all the excess 16 games active, 24-yards-rushing-on-5-carries-as-a-backup garbage and arrive at comparable numbers for 4 years isolated for the main backs involved post-Davis.



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I know that, but the postseason is very much apart of Davis' list of career accomplishments. You can cover your eyes and plug your ears and act like they never happened, but they did. Those postseason TDs happened, and they were very important. And I added post season numbers to all those guys career totals. Not just Davis. Because I am in the interest of fairness. You have an agenda: To make inferior one-hit wonders comparable to a guy that was one of the best running backs in the NFL four four straight seasons.
How many postseason games did these guys play in?

Anderson's 2000 season was ended by the 2000 Ravens. You know, statistically the greatest defense in NFL history. But I assume you think Davis would have been plowing right on through that defense because he was just so great.

Adding postseason games into the equation only adds more games played separation between he and the other running backs.


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Of course you did. Subtracting bad numbers and extrapolating good numbers. I got it. You're fudging numbers. I completely understand your technique. It's fairly stupid, that's why it's easy to understand.
Is that what you think I'm doing?

No. I'm showing what the feature running back (or in 2005 and beyond, running backs) did for Denver post-Davis.

Gary was the feature guy in 1999. I mention he only did it in 12 games because he only did it in 12 games. Your hero, Terrell Davis, started the first 4.

Mike Anderson was the feature guy in 2000. I subtract out 2 games he didn't play, plus a game in which he only carried 1 time for 3 yards to get the real rushing yards per game figures. You can feel free to do the same with Davis. Davis isn't going to blow any of these guys away.

In 2001, it's too convoluted, with your hero, Davis, starting 8 games.

In 2002 and 2003, it was Portis. In 2003, he missed 3 games outright. Again, I make note of that when posting his numbers. Davis wasn't above missing games with injuries, even before he blew out his knee, so I think it's only fair to look at what both backs were doing per game each year.

In 2004, it was Reuben Droughns. No carries in 2 games outright, and 2 other games with 2 and 8 carries when he was backing up Quentin Griffin. Davis started every game he played in for 4 years, and, with the exception of the 3 season finales I mentioned, was the feature runner for the entire game. These other guys, save Portis, weren't so fortunate.

In 2005, it was the Bell/Anderson tandem. Carries split pretty evenly. They each missed 1 game.

In 2006, it was the Bell tandem. Carries split pretty evenly. Tatum Bell missed 3 games, Mike Bell missed 1.

In 2007, it was Travis Henry and Selvin Young, carries split pretty evenly. 4 missed games for Henry, 1 for Young.

In 2008, it was Pittman, Hillis, Young, Bell, and Hall. A convoluted mess.


I try to avoid 2001, 2007, and 2008, as these seasons are far too convoluted. I haven't really mentioned 2006 too much, but we can do that one, too, if you want.

I'm looking for seasons where the situation was clean enough to make a direct comparison between a starting running back, or a tandem of starting backs. I mention how many games they played in because that's simply doing the right thing.

Joe Montana only threw for 3521 yards and 26 TDs during his MVP 1989 season. What's the big deal about a year like that?

Oh...wait a minute, it might be because he missed 3 games outright and 3 other full halves (New England, @ Atlanta, Chicago), so those numbers were what he posted through 11.5 games.

Turns out Montana's season was just a tad bit better than Boomer Esiason's 3525 yard, 28 TD 1989 season. Esiason had 15 full games, plus a sliver of another, to post his numbers.

Injuries happen. The "durability" argument can be a valid objection, but not when discussing a guy like Terrell Davis.

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Don't need to subtract Davis' least productive games and make up excuses. His numbers speak for itself.
OK, then. By that same token, Terrell Davis is the 48th best rusher in NFL history.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...yds_career.htm
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
If you polled all NFL GMs and HCs and gave them your premise that TD was a 'fraud' RB and strictly a product of Mike SHanahan's offense, what do you think they would say??
No idea. If I phrased it that way, they'd probably be like, "wait a minute, who the hell are you to talk about a PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL PLAYER LIKE THAT?"

If I said he was a product of his blocking scheme, they would say they've heard that before. I'm not the first person to make this argument. I've read bits from scouts in NFL previews before talking about it. They didn't really start acknowledging it until the likes of Gary and Anderson did it, though.

It can take a while for something like this to hit people. Davis was the first one to do it, and without a precedent, it didn't really draw suspicion. Scouts pay more attention to the scheme and individual talent of a player when he's coming out of college.


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Did Terrell Davis play in a RB friendly offense?? Yes.
Why was it 'RB friendly'?? Because the ZBS allows a runner to be totally instinctive and use his vision to find cutback lanes/holes and run to daylight.
Not exactly. If a RB is out there freelancing all over the place, he's going to hit the bench.

The RB makes his cut based on the o-line/QB's reads. Now, as with any position, they are allowed a certain amount of freedom within the scheme. But when you're coached to find the cutback, and a gaping cutback opens up...you're going to hit it, if you're an NFL-caliber back.

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You would think if Davis was a dime-a-dozen RB, Shanny would have found one just like him or better by now. He never has.

Players who are very difficult to replace are usually uncommon players, not frauds or system athletes.

Not one of the RBs that came after TD was on his level. Why is that??
They either lacked the toughness/durability, or his overall run skills.
Davis didn't have durability. He lasted 4 seasons, and missed 3 games in those 4 seasons.

Guys like Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns, and the Bells were having success. Alfred Morris just did 1613 yards on 4.8 yards/carry with 13 TDs in his rookie season. Terrell Davis did 1117 yards on 4.7 yards/carry with 7 touchdowns in his rookie season (he missed 2 games...still wouldn't have made up the difference).

The production was similar for numerous backs who played in this system after Davis. Davis didn't rush for 2,008 yards and 21 TDs every year.

Shanahan just never stuck with one back for 4 years post-Davis. That's the difference. And it wasn't because the back was "failing." It was because he started to realize he could use the production his scheme created to acquire talent elsewhere, while he kept plugging in new backs and continuing to run brilliantly.

2 of Davis's Big 4 seasons were exceeded by more than one back in this scheme.

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Unless you're arguing the RBs who played in Denver after TD left were equal or better than TD, there really has been no compelling argument IMO that TD was a fraud.
The numbers are there, as I've continually pointed out.

That alone doesn't mean Davis couldn't have been a great back who just wound up in a scheme where any back can look good, but it essentially demolishes any statistical argument in Davis's favor. It leaves you looking at what happened on the field, and Davis just didn't do enough eye-popping things to justify his reputation.


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What Shanny has done through his success running his ZBS is that RBs league wide have become devalued, not because there are no good RBs but because there are statistically so many good ones who don't carry a round 1 draft grade.

1000+ yard RBs can be found in almost every draft in any round. Shanny has taught other NFL GMs and HCs that you should never overcoach a RB and ideally you give him the ball and let him do his thing.

The way TD's detractors are arguing, you would think Davis got the ball and routinely ran 10 yards untouched through the middle of Denvers' Oline.
He did routinely do that. Most of the time when he gained 10+ yards, he was untouched until the end of the run.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:13 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:20 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:54 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:37 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
Not exactly. If a RB is out there freelancing all over the place, he's going to hit the bench.

The RB makes his cut based on the o-line/QB's reads. Now, as with any position, they are allowed a certain amount of freedom within the scheme. But when you're coached to find the cutback, and a gaping cutback opens up...you're going to hit it, if you're an NFL-caliber back.
This is wrong. In Denverís zone-blocking scheme, the runner was responsible for his own reads. Not the quarterback or the offensive line. The runner. Terrell Davis had a part in enhancing the effectiveness of that scheme. He had a part in creating those running lanes. He had to press the hole, freeze the defenders, set the table, and then cut the run to the open hole. Tight and wide zone runs require quick, fluid footwork and decisive, panoramic vision. Terrell Davis possessed those qualities.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cudders View Post
This is wrong. In Denverís zone-blocking scheme, the runner was responsible for his own reads. Not the quarterback or the offensive line. The runner. Terrell Davis had a part in enhancing the effectiveness of that scheme. He had a part in creating those running lanes. He had to press the hole, freeze the defenders, set the table, and then cut the run to the open hole. Tight and wide zone runs require quick, fluid footwork and decisive, panoramic vision. Terrell Davis possessed those qualities.
That's simply not true. Watch Alex Gibbs going over the film on Youtube.
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Old 01-11-2013, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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That's simply not true. Watch Alex Gibbs going over the film on Youtube.
Link the video. Show me where Alex Gibbs clarifies that the specific hole of a run in a zone-blocking scheme is identified and predetermined based on a singular pre-snap quarterback read. And that it never, ever changes or asks the runner to adapt based on flow principles.

Before the ball is snapped, thereís a goal that the offense wants to accomplish. Yes, the pre-snap call might be, for example, a wide zone run. In that case, the quarterback, offensive line, and running back leave the huddle with the same thought process in mind. (Like all offensive design.) The quarterback is thinking about the alignment and shading of the front juxtaposed with the direction of the run. The offensive line is thinking about their technique (stance, footwork, punch, landmark, etc.) as it pertains to bottling the defense inside. The running back is thinking about pressing the outside hip of the furthest declared blocker.

But all of that is irrelevant in terms of post-snap execution of the zone-blocking scheme. If the tackle or guard miss their seal, and the defensive end or defensive tackle get outside their man, then the designated hole isnít optimal. Once a defender crosses the offensive linemen, in general, his responsibilities change. Instead of sealing, the hats are asked to push the pursuit now. Keep the inside defenders tight and drive the outside defenders wide.

Thatís where the runner is making his own reads. Pre-snap reads arenít cognizant of post-snap execution or flow. The runner has to see the field, read the flow, and make the decision to cut the run back. The center or quarterback canít help then. Youíre suggesting that the running back is assigned an inflexible hole and thatís that. Thatís just where the run is going. And that ignores the whole cut back element of the zone-blocking scheme.
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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Link the video. Show me where Alex Gibbs clarifies that the specific hole of a run in a zone-blocking scheme is identified and predetermined based on a singular pre-snap quarterback read. And that it never, ever changes or asks the runner to adapt based on flow principles.
I don't remember ever saying this.


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Before the ball is snapped, thereís a goal that the offense wants to accomplish. Yes, the pre-snap call might be, for example, a wide zone run. In that case, the quarterback, offensive line, and running back leave the huddle with the same thought process in mind. (Like all offensive design.) The quarterback is thinking about the alignment and shading of the front juxtaposed with the direction of the run. The offensive line is thinking about their technique (stance, footwork, punch, landmark, etc.) as it pertains to bottling the defense inside. The running back is thinking about pressing the outside hip of the furthest declared blocker.

But all of that is irrelevant in terms of post-snap execution of the zone-blocking scheme. If the tackle or guard miss their seal, and the defensive end or defensive tackle get outside their man, then the designated hole isnít optimal. Once a defender crosses the offensive linemen, in general, his responsibilities change. Instead of sealing, the hats are asked to push the pursuit now. Keep the inside defenders tight and drive the outside defenders wide.
Well yeah, if the linemen blow their blocks, it's a different matter. But all of the blocking techniques employed are determined by players who are not the running back. The running back's reads are based on what the offensive line decides to do. Alex Gibbs, in this video, mentions early and often how linemen are forcing the running back to cut to a given hole based on their reads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNa3gZfQfH0

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Thatís where the runner is making his own reads. Pre-snap reads arenít cognizant of post-snap execution or flow. The runner has to see the field, read the flow, and make the decision to cut the run back. The center or quarterback canít help then. Youíre suggesting that the running back is assigned an inflexible hole and thatís that. Thatís just where the run is going. And that ignores the whole cut back element of the zone-blocking scheme.
I don't think we're really disagreeing here. The problem is, you're acting like the running back deciding to cut back is somehow a difficult determination he arrived at based on the defense. The offensive line did all the complicated work of choosing which techniques to employ and where based on the defensive alignment, and Davis simply ran to where the hole opened up. He didn't really have to read the defense - the line cuts the backside pursuit and pretty much clears away the second level defenders, so he merely has to figure out where the blocking is telling him to run.

This is easy stuff for an NFL running back to do. Edgerrin James would have killed in this system. He was tearing it up in Indy with the stretch play, and he didn't get this kind of second level cutting and down field blocking.
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:42 PM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
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[quote=JordanTaber;3241640]I don't remember ever saying this.










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This is easy stuff for an NFL running back to do. Edgerrin James would have killed in this system. He was tearing it up in Indy with the stretch play, and he didn't get this kind of second level cutting and down field blocking.


It's not easy stuff for any RB to do. Otherwise every team that's run the ZBS would have a 1500+ yard rusher. Edge is a borderline HOFer himself, so to suggest he would have excelled in this system doesn't really argue how any random RB would look like a probowler in a ZBS.
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:07 AM    (permalink
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[quote=FUNBUNCHER;3241905]
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
I don't remember ever saying this.










[/b]

It's not easy stuff for any RB to do. Otherwise every team that's run the ZBS would have a 1500+ yard rusher. Edge is a borderline HOFer himself, so to suggest he would have excelled in this system doesn't really argue how any random RB would look like a probowler in a ZBS.
Name these teams. Gibbs didn't list very many when asked who ran it back in the mid-2000s.

Running "ZBS" alone isn't all there is to it, either. The offensive staff has to install the right plays to mix with it in order to get the desired results.

James flopped in Arizona. He had some tools, but he's another guy I wouldn't even consider in my all-time list. He's not a borderline HOFer at all. He has no chance of getting in.
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Old 01-12-2013, 04:51 AM    (permalink
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