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Old 01-13-2013, 04:13 PM    (permalink
RockJock07
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I've seen some people on other boards who want to go back to the 4-3, but I'm with you. Going back to a 4-3 would pretty much call for a complete rebuild of the front-7. We could cobble together a functional unit, but it wouldn't look like much. What do we do with Clay? Make him a SLB? A KGB-style DE?

DE: Perry
UT: Neal
NT: Raji
DE: ????

SLB: ???
MLB: Bishop
WLB: Hawk??? (Please no)

When you have a playmaker like Clay, you play to his strengths. If you have to try to figure out how to use him, then you're doing it wrong.
I would agree, as long as they have Clay they have to run a 34. I think all the pieces you listed above would work in either defense but then they would have to get another quality DE.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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Yes exactly... This D is built pretty well for a 3-4 and it would be a huge setback to switch. We just need to get 1 or maybe 2 DE, a OLB, MLB and maybe a S.

But we will get back Bishop, Smith, Perry... which will help. We really dont need much and I really like our young secondary. We just need to find a way to get pressure because with how good they are back there just imagine if we could get pressure on the QB. We really seem to lack in that area.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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Yes exactly... This D is built pretty well for a 3-4 and it would be a huge setback to switch.
Agreed. That's why I think Capers is the ultimate one who has to be held accountable.

Our defense is quite offensive.
Warner, Eli, and Kaepernick had no problem at all figuring out what Capers' guys were doing out there.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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How many times have we read quotes from players on other teams saying they knew exactly what the Packers were doing on D? Seems to happen quite often
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:49 PM    (permalink
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Funny thing. Kevin Greene spent one year playing a straight OLB in a 4-3. Still performed really well despite that. Took a professional approach.

Now he's coaching Clay Matthews.

So how much worse overall is Clay from Greene in his prime for a transition to a 4-3 to be unviable?
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:55 PM    (permalink
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Yeah that was another problem. Still don't get what MM was doing with Ross on punt returns

He said during Week 17 that Cobb would stay on returns because ST are important and now isn't the time for change. In the WC round he kept Cobb on punt returns(more faith in his hands most likely) and had Ross on KR(more time to recover in case of a screw-up) and then the very next week he puts Ross on PR for some reason.
I dunno about you, but I don't really like Cobb on returns;

1. The additional risk of injury to a player who has become a focal part of the offense.

2. He's a juker and jiver as opposed to a downfield runner. Too many times I've seen him stop in his tracks to try and finesse his way past a defender rather than shoot forward to gain positive yardage.

Frankly, outside of that one miff- and all but benching him because of that seems pretty rediculous since Cobb muffed two balls in that same game but got them back immediately- I was happier with Ross returning the balls than Cobb.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:37 AM    (permalink
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Yeah that was another problem. Still don't get what MM was doing with Ross on punt returns

He said during Week 17 that Cobb would stay on returns because ST are important and now isn't the time for change. In the WC round he kept Cobb on punt returns(more faith in his hands most likely) and had Ross on KR(more time to recover in case of a screw-up) and then the very next week he puts Ross on PR for some reason

That turnover definitely shifted momentum, but make no mistake, they lost this game because the D was not readily prepared for the Niners offense and had zero, ZERO answer for Kaep's running ability.
This is what I don't get. Unless MM has said something, you have no idea why Cobb was on returns last week and why Ross was on returns this week. So you just assume it's cause he had drop problems? And if he did do you really think MM would put him out there on punt returns in the divisional playoffs?

We were all asking for Ross to be put on punt returns after Cobb got injured and Ross preformed well. But suddenly when Ross drops one, MM is stupid for not putting Cobb on returns? That makes no sense.

I dunno, maybe it's actually Ross' fault for dropping the ball?

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Agreed. That's why I think Capers is the ultimate one who has to be held accountable.

Our defense is quite offensive.
Warner, Eli, and Kaepernick had no problem at all figuring out what Capers' guys were doing out there.
Ugh. Do you think it was Caper's plan have the Giants somehow complete a hail mary pass at the end of the first half? Was that Capers' fault? Was it his fault Nicks ran in for the easiest touchdown of his life bouncing off our poor excuses for tackles?

And you say guys have no problem figuring out Capers' defenses, and use two games 4 years apart as your example. Why not also bring up our #2 defense in 2010 and our #11 defense this year? Why didn't teams figure us out then?

It's just shortsighted.
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Old 01-14-2013, 06:52 AM    (permalink
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Ugh. Do you think it was Caper's plan have the Giants somehow complete a hail mary pass at the end of the first half? Was that Capers' fault? Was it his fault Nicks ran in for the easiest touchdown of his life bouncing off our poor excuses for tackles?

And you say guys have no problem figuring out Capers' defenses, and use two games 4 years apart as your example. Why not also bring up our #2 defense in 2010 and our #11 defense this year? Why didn't teams figure us out then?

It's just shortsighted.
So what are you saying, replace 8 of the 11 players on defense?
More rookies, or spend $ on free agents?
You defend, absolve Capers of the blame this year, last year, 3 years ago?
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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I am happy Ross is on returns and will continue to want him on returns over Cobb... I was just not happy he was on that return because of the result. Hopefully he learns and doesn't make it a habit.

Out defense is slightly above average but it had the potential to be great. I think we just need a change at DC to get us there. I don't mind Capers but feel we could do better. Lets hope the grass is greener... anyways our lack of pressure is what kills us. Did we even have any against the 49ers? Matthews totally disappeared because there is no one on the other side.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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Even though the defense was terrible throughout, the offense looked pretty good in the first half. However, they did nothing in the second half when McCarthy completely abandoned the run. Did Harris get hurt on that cheap shot from Goldson? He only had two carries after that, and the only other running plays they had were the two to Cobb.

Dajuan Harris
First half: 9 carries for 47 yards, TD
Second half: 2 carries for 6 yards

Offensive play calls
First half: 9 rushes, 10 passes, 1 scramble, 14 points
Second half: 4 rushes, 30 passes (including 1 sack), 2 scrambles, 10 points

McCarthy fell into the same trap he did in Week 1 - the offense became predictable and was easier for the 49ers to stop. To be fair, 18 of those second-half passes came after we were down two TDs, but the offense was much less efficient when we weren't running the ball.

The moment I knew we had lost the game was when McCarthy punted on 4th-and-5 from midfield 11 minutes left. We're down by two scores, the defense can't stop anything, and you're punting on a manageable 4th down??
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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this team cannot run the ball on the level us fans would like to see. The only reason we manage to have games where the team looks like it can mange a running game is because the defenses guess wrong.

Why waste a down on a play that would manage to get us a maximum of 3 yards?

Our quick passing game was the best part of this offense.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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This is what I don't get. Unless MM has said something, you have no idea why Cobb was on returns last week and why Ross was on returns this week. So you just assume it's cause he had drop problems? And if he did do you really think MM would put him out there on punt returns in the divisional playoffs?

We were all asking for Ross to be put on punt returns after Cobb got injured and Ross preformed well. But suddenly when Ross drops one, MM is stupid for not putting Cobb on returns? That makes no sense.

I dunno, maybe it's actually Ross' fault for dropping the ball?
We have MM's quotes to go on back in Week 17 where he states that now isn't the time for a change

We wanted Ross on returns, but I'd say we were fine with Cobb finishing out things THIS year in that role and then Ross takes over full time next season. It was just weird to see him have Cobb returning the punts in the WC game only to go to Ross the very next week, considering his comments from Week 17. That's all

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Ugh. Do you think it was Caper's plan have the Giants somehow complete a hail mary pass at the end of the first half? Was that Capers' fault? Was it his fault Nicks ran in for the easiest touchdown of his life bouncing off our poor excuses for tackles?

And you say guys have no problem figuring out Capers' defenses, and use two games 4 years apart as your example. Why not also bring up our #2 defense in 2010 and our #11 defense this year? Why didn't teams figure us out then?

It's just shortsighted.
The problem is that it's becoming a trend to see his defenses come up short vs the elite teams/QB's year after year.

I'm not blaming Capers for everything, but I don't think it's just the personnel. A bit of both. I think Capers will be back but next year is a make or break one for him IMO. Capers definitely isn't helped by this weak ass LB corps, I'll admit that. That alone just severely caps the potential of this D. Walden, Jones, Hawk as 3/4 of your starting LB group just isn't gonna cut it. None of them are physical and Walden is terrible at setting the edge, just terrible. That 56 yard TD run by Kaep, Walden got completely sucked in and had his freakin BACK turned and never even saw Kaep just run right by him, that's how bad he screwed up. GEtting Bishop and Perry back may help things, but they still need that 1 ILB stud with speed to combat Bishop(who is the bruising, physical LBer but isn't fast)


This team just gets pushed around too easily. They need to get more physical, stronger and bigger up front on the OL, especially the interior of the line, and they need more speed on D
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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So what are you saying, replace 8 of the 11 players on defense?
More rookies, or spend $ on free agents?
You defend, absolve Capers of the blame this year, last year, 3 years ago?
No, I never said that. If we can replace a player like AJ Hawk, with someone better, obviously it would be the right thing to do. But getting rid of him and replacing him with someone worse wouldn't be a good move. Take the same approach with Capers. I'd support getting a upgrade, but firing him for the sake of it itsn't going to change anything. If we fire Capers and promote from within without improving the talent on defense we will not be better. We'd probably go backwards.

And why are people acting like this defense is talented? BJ Raji was the only above average defensive lineman out there and he played like ****. Opposite Clay we had Erik Walden, Brad Jones and AJ Hawk. None of them should be starting in the NFL. Then you have an average Morgan Burnett at free safety and Woodson who played terrible.

Another thing I don't understand is why people are acting like this is the end of the world. We lose in the playoffs two years in a row (generally you play good teams in the playoffs, you know?) and people are questioning whether Rodgers will have another chance to win a superbowl. I really have no idea why the last 2 years have any relation to future years in which we'll have different teams.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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I can't wait to get back Sherrod, Bulaga, Bishop, Smith, even Quarless and some others. What do we do with Barclay? And can Sherrod be the answer at LT over Newhouse?
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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Mike Neal actually was playin really well the end of the season, so that was a Dlineman who played well. Pickett probably had his best season as well

LB situation was the huge issue and as long as that isn't improved, it puts them in a bind. Must have great LBers to have a great 3-4 D and they don't have it
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:50 PM    (permalink
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Another thing I don't understand is why people are acting like this is the end of the world. We lose in the playoffs two years in a row (generally you play good teams in the playoffs, you know?) and people are questioning whether Rodgers will have another chance to win a superbowl. I really have no idea why the last 2 years have any relation to future years in which we'll have different teams.
When you have the best player in the world in his prime, I can kinda understand a sense of urgency with winning as many Superbowls as possible. Soon.

The Packers are very fortunate to have a successor to Favre that is actually better. How many teams in the history of the NFL can say that? An all-time NFL HOF QB turning over to a more accurate and mobile QB?

Rodgers is better than a 1 Superbowl-in-his-career player. He deserves multiple ships towards his legacy. The Packers need to get their @$##@ together and give him a winning team soon before he starts his decline. And that decline may come sooner than you think.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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Just sampling.... who here thinks Rodgers one Super Bowl will be it?

This team is not even an NFC elite team anymore, and their nose is pointing downwards. We're about to lose Jennings, lose Driver, Woodson is a shell of his former self.... Collins is long gone. Pickett, my favorite guy, can't even move barely.

This isn't New England with Belichick. No matter what, that team scores like hell and is always close to a Super Bowl.

We keep finging matchup problems for us... bad matchups people say.
The NYG are a "bad matchup" for us.
So, obviously, is San Francisco. They are only going to get better by the way.
3 years ago it was the passing of Warner that was our bad matchup.
If we had to play at New Orleans in the 2010 playoff run, or the Giants, we probably would have lost because it was a bad matchup.

And where are the problems?

Always on defense.
Even before we lost Collins & Jenkins, we had matchup problems vs great passing teams.

To me, the common thread is Capers system.... maybe it's the DB coaches? But I think Capers is mostly to blame. Not 100%, but the game today is a lot different than it was back in the day Capers was the Dominator.

I don't know what more Thompson can do than draft all defensive guys on days 1 & 2 of the draft. He can't make them stay healthy.
He can't teach them how to hold containment on the edges. He can't teach them to tackle like men.
He can't teach Woodson to not be out of position, a step or two late, etc.

When was the last time anyone accused the Packers of being a physical, intimidating defense? Is that impossible?

Rodgers won't stay healthy forever. You have to make some serious overhauls on the defensive side of the ball. Don't waste Rodgers. It saddens me to see him have to score 35-45 points every playoff game to survive.

Capers gets paid to be a great DC, not an average one.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by StudentBodyLeft View Post
When you have the best player in the world in his prime, I can kinda understand a sense of urgency with winning as many Superbowls as possible. Soon.

The Packers are very fortunate to have a successor to Favre that is actually better. How many teams in the history of the NFL can say that? An all-time NFL HOF QB turning over to a more accurate and mobile QB?

Rodgers is better than a 1 Superbowl-in-his-career player. He deserves multiple ships towards his legacy. The Packers need to get their @$##@ together and give him a winning team soon before he starts his decline. And that decline may come sooner than you think.
I'm not even sure if your serious. Rodgers is 29, he has at least 6 years playing at an elite level. By that time we will have a completely different team. Who knows if it will be talented or not. We got to the divisional round of the playoffs 2 years in a row and people are acting like we didn't get to the playoffs. Its a ******* joke.

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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Just sampling.... who here thinks Rodgers one Super Bowl will be it?

This team is not even an NFC elite team anymore, and their nose is pointing downwards. We're about to lose Jennings, lose Driver, Woodson is a shell of his former self.... Collins is long gone. Pickett, my favorite guy, can't even move barely.

This isn't New England with Belichick. No matter what, that team scores like hell and is always close to a Super Bowl.

We keep finging matchup problems for us... bad matchups people say.
The NYG are a "bad matchup" for us.
So, obviously, is San Francisco. They are only going to get better by the way.
3 years ago it was the passing of Warner that was our bad matchup.
If we had to play at New Orleans in the 2010 playoff run, or the Giants, we probably would have lost because it was a bad matchup.

And where are the problems?

Always on defense.
Even before we lost Collins & Jenkins, we had matchup problems vs great passing teams.

To me, the common thread is Capers system.... maybe it's the DB coaches? But I think Capers is mostly to blame. Not 100%, but the game today is a lot different than it was back in the day Capers was the Dominator.

I don't know what more Thompson can do than draft all defensive guys on days 1 & 2 of the draft. He can't make them stay healthy.
He can't teach them how to hold containment on the edges. He can't teach them to tackle like men.
He can't teach Woodson to not be out of position, a step or two late, etc.

When was the last time anyone accused the Packers of being a physical, intimidating defense? Is that impossible?

Rodgers won't stay healthy forever. You have to make some serious overhauls on the defensive side of the ball. Don't waste Rodgers. It saddens me to see him have to score 35-45 points every playoff game to survive.

Capers gets paid to be a great DC, not an average one.
Again, how could you possibly know? Can you see 4, 5, 6 years into the future? Do you know if our team will be talented in a few years?

Not even an elite NFC team anymore....Seriously. Get a grip. Again, two Divisional round playoff loses. Both seasons we finished first in the NFC North. We were the #1 team in 2011 and the #3 team this season. 2011 we lost to the eventual superbowl winners, this season we lost to the #2 seed who will probably be in the superbowl. The way people are acting you;d think we finished 8-8 with Rodgers as the QB. And btw, was Rodgers not partly to blame for the Giants playoff loss...cause I definitely remember the offense playing like **** for the whole game.

"This isn't NE who is always close to a superbowl".



is the divisional round of the playoffs not close to the superbowl? one game away from the conference championship and two games away from the superbowl? stop acting like we're picking first overall.

when was the last time the patriots actually won a superbowl? you claim the pats are doing so well with brady, but if we were in their position you'd still be crying and moaning about how we're wasting aaron rodgers' talents.

3 points some people need to get into their heads:

1) there is more than one good team in the nfl.

2) teams can improve. (shocking, i know)

3) the packers dont have a god given right to win the superbowl every year.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:35 PM    (permalink
J-Mike88
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Not even an elite NFC team anymore....Seriously. Get a grip. 1) there is more than one good team in the nfl.

2) teams can improve. (shocking, i know)
You call us "elite" still?
OK, I'm not buying it. I wish, but am realistic. Maybe you think the SF game was a fluke. Or the week 1 SF game was a fluke. I don't, not on defense.

Your opinion appears different than mine, than many Packer fans I've seen on other sites, or than Mike Vandermause, the editor of the Press-Gazette sports. http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/...tref=sportsmod
Quote:
The Packers' reign as one of the elite teams in the NFC is over. It has become clear the 49ers have overtaken the Packers by a wide margin.
I suppose you, as well as he, and I, are entitled to our own opinions.

You seem very offended by any criticism of the brand.... how would you make the dramatic changes to the defense?
Or are you saying you think the defense will dramatically improve on their own by happenstance?
Or is it your belief there is nothing wrong with this defense that has lost 3 playoff games in the past 4 years where they have allowed over 1500 yards and 40 points a game?

I'm not throwing in the towel, but we have to make some serious changes on defense and I believe that starts at the top. I would like a few players replaced though, and they will be as we typically turn over about 20% of our roster from year-to-year.

Instead of being sensitive towards my disgust with the defense costing us that dynasty that many had forecasted, how about you reveal your plan and idea.

Remember, we added a good 1st rd OLB with a good 2nd rd DL plus a good 3rd rd CB, and the defense still just put Kaepernick into the HOF.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it?
What would you call this defensive system?
Talk to Chuck. Woodson.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by StudentBodyLeft View Post
When you have the best player in the world in his prime, I can kinda understand a sense of urgency with winning as many Superbowls as possible. Soon.

Rodgers is better than a 1 Superbowl-in-his-career player. He deserves multiple ships towards his legacy. The Packers need to get their @$##@ together and give him a winning team soon before he starts his decline. And that decline may come sooner than you think.
I agree with everything you said.
Just because Brady & Manning are still doing it so well at that age doesn't mean Rodgers will be great still in 8 years.
You can't take that for granted.
See Nick Collins. See Sterling Sharpe.

This defense is NOT headed in the right direction.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:02 PM    (permalink
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Guys, this team is in great shape, much better than a lot of other teams. We are sounding like spoiled fans

their arrow isn't pointing down. They were nearly the #2 seed this season and won their division(toughest division in the NFL might I add)

they have young and talented players on both sides of the ball. They have a few things left to fix but so does everybody else. Things change in the NFL in a hurry, but I trust TT, MM and Rodgers to keep this team as SB contenders going forward. They have shown to be excellent at drafting and developing.

There's turnover every year in the NFL. You can't keep everybody. TT knows this and drafts accordingly. The draft pick of Cobb didnt' make too much sense in 2011 considering the deep and talented WR corps they had, but it was likely made in anticipation of Jennings eventually leaving. The key is to replace a good player with a younger, cheaper and better one(obviously). TT has a pretty good track record in the draft so I'm not worried

they mainly need to fix the LB corps, and the plus side is 2 guys are returning to that group next year. Bishop is already proven to be a good ILB and Perry was a 1st round pick this year who has promise. They need some maulers in the interior of their OL, mainly at Center. Get a RB as well
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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[quote=J-
Kaepernick had no problem at all figuring out what Capers' guys were doing out there.[/QUOTE]

Kaepernick killed the Packers with his legs. The LBs we had starting in this game don't have the speed to excel in Capers scheme (aside from Matthews). The Packers must bring in more speed at LB.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:52 AM    (permalink
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Maybe you think the SF game was a fluke. Or the week 1 SF game was a fluke. I don't, not on defense.
Okay, so we aren't the best team in the NFL. But that doesn;t mean anything. We will start next year with the chance of getting to the superbowl. what more can you ask for? apparently a guaranteed ever year is the only thing that will suffice with some of our fans.

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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Your opinion appears different than mine, than many Packer fans I've seen on other sites, or than Mike Vandermause, the editor of the Press-Gazette sports. http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/...tref=sportsmod
Which teams do you actually think are better than us in the NFC? the 49ers, yes. falcons? thats debatable. people are acting as though its an embarrassment to be one of the top teams in the nfc and its unbelievably annoying because of how spoilt it sounds.

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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
You seem very offended by any criticism of the brand.... how would you make the dramatic changes to the defense?
Or are you saying you think the defense will dramatically improve on their own by happenstance?
Or is it your belief there is nothing wrong with this defense that has lost 3 playoff games in the past 4 years where they have allowed over 1500 yards and 40 points a game?
I'm not offended at people criticizing the brand, its why people are criticizing. because we lost to a good team in the divisional round of the playoffs. c'mon seriously? people are in uproar over this. it's just sad and pathetic that our fans expect us to be winning superbowls every year and if we dont its some sort of crisis.

how does our defense improve? getting better players. its pretty simple actually. and we will have the chance to improve the talent on our defense.

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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Instead of being sensitive towards my disgust with the defense costing us that dynasty that many had forecasted, how about you reveal your plan and idea.
you just said it yourself. you are disgusted at the packers not becoming the dynasty people had projected.

...

our fans have got to a stage where they will be disgusted by the lack of consistent super bowls....

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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Remember, we added a good 1st rd OLB with a good 2nd rd DL plus a good 3rd rd CB, and the defense still just put Kaepernick into the HOF.
nick perry and jerel worthy didn't play, so....
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Here's a good article, thanks to our friends at ProFootballFocus, looking at the transition to 2013 for the Packers.

Obviously the cupboard is not bare.
But realistically, the defense has to take it up two levels.
Now staying healthy, getting good luck there instead of bad luck, that should put it up a notch itself.
But you can't bank on good luck with injuries with this team for some reason.

http://packersinsider.com/?p=5239
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