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Old 01-14-2013, 12:48 AM    (permalink
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I'm confused of why at this point people are ready to put CK over Cam. Don't get me wrong I like CK but winning a playoff game doesn't make one QB better than another nor does having a winning season or at least not on its own. Specially since he's only started 9 games. Have we already forgotten what Cam was doing through 9 games?
CK has tons of athleticism and a good arm, but I guarantee you that the Panthers are not crying to trade.

Jim Harbaugh has a lot to do with the success of CK. If he had Cam, I would fear for the NFL.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:36 AM    (permalink
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I think what Scott has said is a big thing in this debate. Had Kaepernick went somewhere like Oakland and been asked to star from day one as a pure drop back passer do people believe he would be having the same success?

One of the big knocks on CK was he was a project. I don't think anyone doubted he had the potential. In SF, he was afforded the luxury of sitting for a year and a half with a few specific packages tailored to suit him as a runner first and foremost. Also bear in mind that there was no real pressure for Kaepernick to start in SF. Alex Smith was having possibly his best year ever until getting hurt. If CK doesn't go off against the Bears then it's simply a case of him not being ready and Smith goes back in.

He landed in an ideal spot for him to fit his strengths while also giving him time to work on his weaknesses.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:33 AM    (permalink
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I think what Scott has said is a big thing in this debate. Had Kaepernick went somewhere like Oakland and been asked to star from day one as a pure drop back passer do people believe he would be having the same success?

One of the big knocks on CK was he was a project. I don't think anyone doubted he had the potential. In SF, he was afforded the luxury of sitting for a year and a half with a few specific packages tailored to suit him as a runner first and foremost. Also bear in mind that there was no real pressure for Kaepernick to start in SF. Alex Smith was having possibly his best year ever until getting hurt. If CK doesn't go off against the Bears then it's simply a case of him not being ready and Smith goes back in.

He landed in an ideal spot for him to fit his strengths while also giving him time to work on his weaknesses.

This was the reason I even liked him to begin with. I had serious doubts about him pre-draft but I felt he needed time, and development to succeed. He had the perfect storm in that he had a great QB coach, a great organization, and time to sit and learn. Once I saw the fit after the draft I was sold personally, but had he gone to Oakland like you said it would have been completely different for me.


I have no doubt situation played a huge role in his success, but it probably did for Aaron Rodgers too. You can wonder how he'd have turned out if he went to Oakland also.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:53 AM    (permalink
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I think what Scott has said is a big thing in this debate. Had Kaepernick went somewhere like Oakland and been asked to star from day one as a pure drop back passer do people believe he would be having the same success?

One of the big knocks on CK was he was a project. I don't think anyone doubted he had the potential. In SF, he was afforded the luxury of sitting for a year and a half with a few specific packages tailored to suit him as a runner first and foremost. Also bear in mind that there was no real pressure for Kaepernick to start in SF. Alex Smith was having possibly his best year ever until getting hurt. If CK doesn't go off against the Bears then it's simply a case of him not being ready and Smith goes back in.

He landed in an ideal spot for him to fit his strengths while also giving him time to work on his weaknesses.
Excellent analysis. Could not have said it better.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:57 AM    (permalink
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This was the reason I even liked him to begin with. I had serious doubts about him pre-draft but I felt he needed time, and development to succeed. He had the perfect storm in that he had a great QB coach, a great organization, and time to sit and learn. Once I saw the fit after the draft I was sold personally, but had he gone to Oakland like you said it would have been completely different for me.


I have no doubt situation played a huge role in his success, but it probably did for Aaron Rodgers too. You can wonder how he'd have turned out if he went to Oakland also.
Agreed. Situation plas a huge role in a player's success as a pro. There really aren't that many guys who can go into any and all situations and automatically be a success. That's why guys bust all the time. It's not necessarily that they are bad players, more because they either go somewhere that isn't a good fit, somewhere that doesn't help them develop, or just somewhere that doesn't have a good culture or preach work ethic and guys get lazy.

That's why for people who post on this board and others, along with draftniks who run websites, even to guys like Kiper, McShay and Mayock it is good to evaluate players as we see them. But nobody outside of specific organisations can truely determine what any specific player may do when drafted. That's why it's also not exactly a fair thing to criticise guys who post things unless they are clearly false since we don't get the full thing. We can't interview all the players, can' get them to do chalkboard sessions, can't get first hand accounts from coaches etc. What we do we do for enjoyment, fun, some guys may do it for money etc but really nobody on this board can make a fully informed report on players on what their future will hold
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:24 AM    (permalink
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Personally I would find it very interesting if the Superbowl came down to New School QB vs. Old School QB.....the prime example of a pocket passer in Brady and what would have to now (after his 180+ running performance) be the prime example of today's modern "read option" New School duel threat QB in Kaepernick. Would be a bit ironic no? Who wins? I go with the experience in Brady...but it would make for an intriguing rematch and curious clash of "New Age" vs "Traditional"....just a thought
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:07 AM    (permalink
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What happens if Ck27 (kaepernick ) wins the super bowl? Will you take him over Cam?I believe in longer future Colin is better.
Why the hell are you calling him CK27?
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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I once stated kaepernick's genetics are everybit as impressive as cam newtons. the emergence of the folkloric pistol formation as seen in the NCAA and CIS becoming utalized by nfl teams with a dual threat QB has made them that much more impressive.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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New age NFL QB's...no more 11 on 10 football
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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I question weather or not the Run Read Option will survive in the NFL. On one hand there are tuns of advantages to teams who can find an athletic QB. On the other hand it vastly increases the likelihood of getting your QB injured also it is new which is usually disturbing to me because is it going to get figured out?
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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I question weather or not the Run Read Option will survive in the NFL. On one hand there are tuns of advantages to teams who can find an athletic QB. On the other hand it vastly increases the likelihood of getting your QB injured also it is new which is usually disturbing to me because is it going to get figured out?
Guys like Kaepernick and Newton are no small dudes they are big boys.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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Guys like Kaepernick and Newton are no small dudes they are big boys.
It'll be interesting to see how teams adjust to the read option. As of now it's pretty much an NFC thing and mainly the NFC west with Wilson and Kaepernick. Teams with good ends are going to have the best chance of slowing down the QB keepers. The Rams with Chris Long and Robert Quinn are 2-1-1 against the two QBs i mentioned
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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it'll work, but teams will adjust. just like they did the wildcat. and spread/GB's unstoppable offense. teams will adjust until the new trend comes along
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:47 PM    (permalink
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If you don't run the read option on every single offensive snap, teams are never going to be able to lock into what the offense is doing and figure it out.

It's like the run versus the pass. If a team passes the ball on every single down, eventually their success rate per pass is going to drop. Or if a team runs on every down it won't be long before they face an 11 man D in the box.

I think guys like Newton and CK are better suited to run the read option because they have the bodies to absorb the hits. Guys like RG3 and Russell Wilson don't long term.

Because of the starting QB's value to any offense, I think it's foolhardy to have a QB run 120+ rushing attempts in a season like Griffin had.

But no, as a mix of plays in the basic offensive gameplan, the read option with the right QB is a devastating weapon. If the 49ers win the SB, the read option is going to be a part of NFL offenses for years to come.

The QB can either hand off to the RB, keep the ball himself and run it, or pull up and throw. That's too much to handle for any D that's reading its keys.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:57 AM    (permalink
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I'll believe it when I see it. I've heard of way too many guys that will revolutionize the position and then it didn't add up to much. Granted these recent guys probably have more talent than other past players.

I think the read option stuff is valuable early in a QB development to keep the defense honest and to get an advantage in the passing game, but as a QB develops into a more advanced passer QB runs just aren't worth the risk. Its great to use as a support for a young guy but I doubt any high level passing QB will be running the ball on anything designed.

Zone reads were very successful for Griffin this year and had a major impact on how defenses could defend the running game and defend the pass. It caused defenses to hesitate for just a moment and Morris would get up field and WRs would blow past guys. It was a major help for Griffin to acclimate to the NFL, but the hits added up and he missed time and now has a major injury. I doubt he will be running like he was this year in the future. Guys like Rodgers or Luck could run some designed stuff, but they are just too valuable and are advanced enough as passers to risk/need designed runs.

Just pump the brakes a little bit on the future of the QB runs. Let's let defenses adjust next year and see if it survives. Kaepernick just killed a defense that was just lost and ran all over them. I can't see these offensive plays proliferate through the NFL when QBs that are agile enough runners and quality passers are rare & hard to find.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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I'll believe it when I see it. I've heard of way too many guys that will revolutionize the position and then it didn't add up to much. Granted these recent guys probably have more talent than other past players.

I think the read option stuff is valuable early in a QB development to keep the defense honest and to get an advantage in the passing game, but as a QB develops into a more advanced passer QB runs just aren't worth the risk. Its great to use as a support for a young guy but I doubt any high level passing QB will be running the ball on anything designed.

Zone reads were very successful for Griffin this year and had a major impact on how defenses could defend the running game and defend the pass. It caused defenses to hesitate for just a moment and Morris would get up field and WRs would blow past guys. It was a major help for Griffin to acclimate to the NFL, but the hits added up and he missed time and now has a major injury. I doubt he will be running like he was this year in the future. Guys like Rodgers or Luck could run some designed stuff, but they are just too valuable and are advanced enough as passers to risk/need designed runs.

Just pump the brakes a little bit on the future of the QB runs. Let's let defenses adjust next year and see if it survives. Kaepernick just killed a defense that was just lost and ran all over them. I can't see these offensive plays proliferate through the NFL when QBs that are agile enough runners and quality passers are rare & hard to find.
I just made a post similar to this in the 49ers sub-forum. Your right, it could never be a focal part of a NFL offense over a extended period of time. Its just not sustsinable as the accumulation of hits and wear and tear mount on your QB, year after year. Plus guys like Cam and CK don't grow on trees. But sprinkled into various gameplans, depending on the opponent, it is sustainable and gives a added dimension that will be hard on any defense to gameplan for it. And as these guys develop as pocket passers, it gets even harder to defend because now you can fake the pistol and drop back and continually gashed teams through the air. Its more than just a gimmick. Just needs to right QB to make it viable option to augment a gameplan, long-term.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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It'll be interesting to see how teams adjust to the read option. As of now it's pretty much an NFC thing and mainly the NFC west with Wilson and Kaepernick. Teams with good ends are going to have the best chance of slowing down the QB keepers. The Rams with Chris Long and Robert Quinn are 2-1-1 against the two QBs i mentioned
How? From everything I've seen the read option renders the DE useless most plays because everything dictates how they react to the play. Most of those plays are predicated off of doing the opposite, so if you have those guys crash down on the RB everytime the QB will pull it and the DE would never catch up, if you had the DE read the QB everytime it would help contain but they would never be in on the run play.


That's not to say there isn't a defense for it, but it seems like the first read is the DE and there just isn't much you can do about it.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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How? From everything I've seen the read option renders the DE useless most plays because everything dictates how they react to the play. Most of those plays are predicated off of doing the opposite, so if you have those guys crash down on the RB everytime the QB will pull it and the DE would never catch up, if you had the DE read the QB everytime it would help contain but they would never be in on the run play.


That's not to say there isn't a defense for it, but it seems like the first read is the DE and there just isn't much you can do about it.
Because Ware was useless against Griffin doesn't mean everyone is. I can only go off how the Rams played against Wilson and Kaepernick, their ends didn't bite on the run fake and stayed wide. The Rams had 6 sacks in their last game against Seattle.

I get less hung up on schemes and gimmics and more interested in talent. I think at the end of the day talent wins.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Because Ware was useless against Griffin doesn't mean everyone is. I can only go off how the Rams played against Wilson and Kaepernick, their ends didn't bite on the run fake and stayed wide. The Rams had 6 sacks in their last game against Seattle.

I get less hung up on schemes and gimmics and more interested in talent. I think at the end of the day talent wins.
I was commenting on more Ends then Ware because last I checked the read option worked against a ton of teams this year not just Dallas. Now I haven't seen every game of Kaep, Wilson, and RGIII, but it seemed to me that was the case in all the games I saw. I didn't see too many plays where the DE actually made a play on the ball in the read option, not that the DE's didn't make any plays all game. I just saw a bunch of times the QB read the DE and he was left chasing somebody a step too late everytime.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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How? From everything I've seen the read option renders the DE useless most plays because everything dictates how they react to the play. Most of those plays are predicated off of doing the opposite, so if you have those guys crash down on the RB everytime the QB will pull it and the DE would never catch up, if you had the DE read the QB everytime it would help contain but they would never be in on the run play.


That's not to say there isn't a defense for it, but it seems like the first read is the DE and there just isn't much you can do about it.
The most obvious way of defnding the read option is playing with gap discipline. It's not sexy and will give up some yards but you are basically not going to give up huge plays as long a stackles aren't missed.

If the play side end stays home and doesn't crash on the back then the RB takes the carry. However, on a lot of "pure" RB handoffs up the middle offenses elect not to block the end to have more numbers inside and at the second level.

Another way to defend it is a lot more risky and really relies on your ability to gain penetration. If you can blitz through the interior of the line it blows the RB handoff play up and allows the end to focus on the QB. However if you don't get there then it can backfire with things like play action.

The Patriots defended Kaepernick the first way and really weren't beaten by the running game. If you take away Dashon Goldson's fake punt the 49ers had 149 yards off 38 carries. That's less than 4 yards a run. However the big problem came off big plays in the passing game.

This is where the evolution of this scheme will go. There is going to be times when the run game is shut down and the QB will need to be able to throw out of "regular" formations. I don't believe there are enough athletes who can throw well enough to see this offense really take off.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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As long as you have a threatening and true running game, the options will be a useful tool. Not something to base your Playbook around but a wrinkle to keep defenses honest. The read option is not brand new so i don't anticipate many adjustments being made like when the wildcat came around.. sometimes you just don't have the players to defend it(athleticism, technique, discipline).

I think people who are challenging whether the read option can remain effective in the NFL are the ones that have convinced themselves that things that work at the college level should not, would not and could not work at the next level.

On a side note, I do understand the hits that could pile up and slow guys down. If I was an OC in the NFL I wouldn't run it more than 7-8 times a game.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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As long as you have a threatening and true running game, the options will be a useful tool. Not something to base your Playbook around but a wrinkle to keep defenses honest. The read option is not brand new so i don't anticipate many adjustments being made like when the wildcat came around.. sometimes you just don't have the players to defend it(athleticism, technique, discipline).

I think people who are challenging whether the read option can remain effective in the NFL are the ones that have convinced themselves that things that work at the college level should not, would not and could not work at the next level.

On a side note, I do understand the hits that could pile up and slow guys down. If I was an OC in the NFL I wouldn't run it more than 7-8 times a game.
Good point there on having a strong inside running game to begin with really makes the option work.

To what degree anything works just depends on who's running it.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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I think it will prove to be a fad, RG111 is already injured and not likey to be able to plant his throwing foot equally well upon his return. Teams will start to go after Kaepernick and Wilson and try to damage their legs ASAP. How long will their careers last, not very long I think?
The NFL fact has always been, run your QB at your own risk, it is quite another to put your QB at risk quite a bit in a game and I just don't see them surviving very long. A couple of crippling injuries, and nobody will want to try it again.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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I don't know that it's a fad. The key term is read option. It's an option to run, not a prerogative. It's a running back's running play first - the QB reads the defensive end and if he overplays the handoff, the QB takes 5 yards (or more, or less, or whatever the situation allows). The problem is when quarterbacks like RGIII think of the plays as a 50/50 decision every time; what RGIII needs to learn is to let Alfred Morris be Washington's primary runner, and then use his own running ability when the opportunity is given to him. Again, understanding when those opportunities are available is the "read" part of the read option. RGIII thinks "I can make this play!" when he should be thinking, "Is the defense telling me I should run?"

That's what's going to extend these quarterback's careers and make the read option a viable NFL scheme - quarterbacks who know it's supposed to be plan B for them to take the ball and run. It should keep defenses honest and make plan A - the running back taking a handoff - more effective. For all their ability, quarterbacks who run the read option just need to keep in mind that they are playing a different position than the player they're handing off to and have different responsibilities. Clearly, if a player like RGIII plays quarterback like a tall running back with a big arm, he's opening himself up to a lot of punishment he doesn't need to take. The running back needs to take the punishment; the quarterback should only keep if he has the self-control to slide or get down before he's gotten every possible yard. i.e., the quarterback should only keep if, in reading the play, he sees that the defense has given him something in its effort to stop plan A - the running back.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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I don't know that it's a fad. The key term is read option. It's an option to run, not a prerogative. It's a running back's running play first - the QB reads the defensive end and if he overplays the handoff, the QB takes 5 yards (or more, or less, or whatever the situation allows). The problem is when quarterbacks like RGIII think of the plays as a 50/50 decision every time; what RGIII needs to learn is to let Alfred Morris be Washington's primary runner, and then use his own running ability when the opportunity is given to him. Again, understanding when those opportunities are available is the "read" part of the read option. RGIII thinks "I can make this play!" when he should be thinking, "Is the defense telling me I should run?"

That's what's going to extend these quarterback's careers and make the read option a viable NFL scheme - quarterbacks who know it's supposed to be plan B for them to take the ball and run. It should keep defenses honest and make plan A - the running back taking a handoff - more effective. For all their ability, quarterbacks who run the read option just need to keep in mind that they are playing a different position than the player they're handing off to and have different responsibilities. Clearly, if a player like RGIII plays quarterback like a tall running back with a big arm, he's opening himself up to a lot of punishment he doesn't need to take. The running back needs to take the punishment; the quarterback should only keep if he has the self-control to slide or get down before he's gotten every possible yard. i.e., the quarterback should only keep if, in reading the play, he sees that the defense has given him something in its effort to stop plan A - the running back.
This. If your reading your keys correctly, you won't expose yourself any more than a typical QB scramble. I still say its not ideal to for it be a focal part of your gameplan over a long period of time. But how many big hits did CK take from the Packers defense? If your reading the ends like your supposed to, the QB shouldn't even be getting touched.

Too many look at RG3 and say it won't last. RG3 was reckless with it. I see Wilson and CK sliding even on minimal gains, not fighting for extra yards and going out of bounds. Their smarter with it than RG3. Plus in CK's case, he's 6'4, 230 lbs. He's built like a LB, not a QB. Guys like him and Cam can absorb hits that Wilson and RG3 can't.
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