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Old 01-23-2013, 03:11 PM    (permalink
JohnCandy
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What would people's reaction be if he went 20 to the Bears?
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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What would people's reaction be if he went 20 to the Bears?
It's not a shocking location. What position? Cowboys could even take him at 18. RG or RT? That would be the question.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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It's not a shocking location. What position? Cowboys could even take him at 18. RG or RT? That would be the question.
The Bears are going to a Saints type passing and protection game with the hiring of New Orleans OC/OL coach Aaron Kromer.

The main issue the Bears have is that they do not have there version of Carl Nicks and Jahri Evans and they allow a ton of pressure up the middle.

Fluker could be their Carl Nicks at LG.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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But he does not have great feet and that is always going to be his weakness.

Why not let him play a position that puts him in a position to be the most successful.

RTs are a dime a dozen, take a LT that cannot play the position in the NFL.

Guys who have the size, temprement and power to dominate inside are harder to find.
I'll actually agree with that, its probably harder to find a quality LG than RT. Finding a guy who can consistently get movement on 325+ LBs.

You also need more toughness inside, because its a much more physical position and alot more head banging goes on in there.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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I respect your opinion. What do you think of a team drafting Fluker to play Guard?

Been a good discussion so far. Nice thoughts by John Candy and Possible Cabbage.
I would probably prefer him at guard, because his weaknesses will be neutralized playing in a phone booth. That said, I think he *can* play RT, and with time could do it at a pretty high level. He's better than Phil Loadholt.
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Tannehill was a better QB (than Gabbert) when he was still playing WR
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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I'll actually agree with that, its probably harder to find a quality LG than RT. Finding a guy who can consistently get movement on 325+ LBs.

You also need more toughness inside, because its a much more physical position and alot more head banging goes on in there.
Watch the Senior Bowl right now and outside of Johnson and Fisher you are watching 10 RTs play football.

If you look at Fluker as an OG he has Iupati type physical skills and ability to physically over power NFL players. I think if you have a guy who can consistently over power 320lbs DTs you play him at OG and allow him to use what god gave him.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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I think the whole RT isn't an important position is incorrect in today's NFL. It is based on the old days of run first. The RT would be asked to go against a bigger, more stout DE and get them off the ball. However nowadays players are moved all over the defensive formation. Demarcus Ware doesn't solely rush from the defensive right side. If a team has a weakness anywhere along the line defenses will find a way to exploit it. Aldon Smith absolutely raped Gabe Carimi at RT. That position is of great importance nowadays.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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I would probably prefer him at guard, because his weaknesses will be neutralized playing in a phone booth. That said, I think he *can* play RT, and with time could do it at a pretty high level. He's better than Phil Loadholt.
I'm really starting to be convinced... but is this creative forum draft talk or will teams really do it? :)

edit: I might have just thought up the answer to my own question... Cowboys fixed Leonard Davis when they moved him from Tackle to Guard. I can see Fluker similarly used.

Last edited by D-Unit : 01-23-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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I think the whole RT isn't an important position is incorrect in today's NFL. It is based on the old days of run first. The RT would be asked to go against a bigger, more stout DE and get them off the ball. However nowadays players are moved all over the defensive formation. Demarcus Ware doesn't solely rush from the defensive right side. If a team has a weakness anywhere along the line defenses will find a way to exploit it. Aldon Smith absolutely raped Gabe Carimi at RT. That position is of great importance nowadays.
Your right, but it is easier to schematically give an RT more help in the pass game. Especially with right handed QB.

You have a fraction of the alternatives on the left side that doesn't disrupt the flow of your regular offense.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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I think the whole RT isn't an important position is incorrect in today's NFL. It is based on the old days of run first. The RT would be asked to go against a bigger, more stout DE and get them off the ball. However nowadays players are moved all over the defensive formation. Demarcus Ware doesn't solely rush from the defensive right side. If a team has a weakness anywhere along the line defenses will find a way to exploit it. Aldon Smith absolutely raped Gabe Carimi at RT. That position is of great importance nowadays.
The pressure that disrupts QBs more than anything is the pressure up the middle.

Also with the amount of blitzing that happens in todays NFL means your interior players are going 1 on 1 more often.

The great passing attacks/successful teams in the NFL have really good interior OL play,

49ers: Iuapti and Boone
Ravens: Yanda, Osemele
Patriots: Mankins, Connoly

In the Bears case Gabe Carimi sucks. Journeymen John Scott stepped in after that game and stabilized the position.

Good OG play makes OT play easier and allows the QB to step up negating the speed of players like Ware to a degree.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
I'm really starting to be convinced... but is this creative forum draft talk or will teams really do it? :)

edit: I might have just thought up the answer to my own question... Cowboys fixed Leonard Davis when they moved him from Tackle to Guard. I can see Fluker similarly used.
Teams do it already look at the best OGs in the league they all played OT in college,

Carl Nicks
Jahri Evans
Kelechi Osemele
Marshal Yanda
Logan Mankins
Justin Blalock
Andy Levitre
Alex Boone

Last Years Draft 2nd Round

Jeff Allen
Kelechi Osemele
Amini Silaotulo
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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The pressure that disrupts QBs more than anything is the pressure up the middle.

Also with the amount of blitzing that happens in todays NFL means your interior players are going 1 on 1 more often.

The great passing attacks/successful teams in the NFL have really good interior OL play,

49ers: Iuapti and Boone
Ravens: Yanda, Osemele
Patriots: Mankins, Connoly

In the Bears case Gabe Carimi sucks. Journeymen John Scott stepped in after that game and stabilized the position.

Good OG play makes OT play easier and allows the QB to step up negating the speed of players like Ware to a degree.
From my perspective, I know Tony Romo hates inside pressure A LOT more than outside pressure. Outside pressure is easier for him to escape from since he can either run to the other side or step up in the pocket and throw. When it's up the middle, he can't step up to throw and choosing a side to run to becomes problematic. So I can definitely agree that solidifying the interior is crucial... but in the end.... all of the OL positions are equally important, imo.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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I think the whole RT isn't an important position is incorrect in today's NFL. It is based on the old days of run first. The RT would be asked to go against a bigger, more stout DE and get them off the ball. However nowadays players are moved all over the defensive formation. Demarcus Ware doesn't solely rush from the defensive right side. If a team has a weakness anywhere along the line defenses will find a way to exploit it.
I think people misunderstand the value of both right and left tackles in the NFL these days. They're both critical to the passing game (but not for the reasons that are oft-reported.)

When the right tackle gets beat, a right handed QB gets pressure in his face. While it's often possible to step out of the way of a rusher you see, you rarely are able to throw accurately with good mechanics in the face of such pressure.

When the left tackle gets beat, a QB might get hit without seeing it. This doesn't generally lead to injuries but to fumbles. The whole "you need an LT to keep your QB healthy" is sort of a myth (though the Theisman/Taylor incident does mean it sometimes happens) because the hits that rock the QB hardest are hits from blitzing linebackers up the middle. Yet we don't pay running backs highly for their skills in blitz pickup.

So bad RT play leads to incompletions, whereas bad LT play leads to fumbles. Both are bad, but on third down the different is more or less field position.

I think if you have no OT positions set in stone on your roster, you don't spend a high pick on a college OT without giving him a shot at either RT or LT. It's like Glenn last year, if you take him and you don't have definite starters outside you give him every chance to play tackle.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JohnCandy View Post
The pressure that disrupts QBs more than anything is the pressure up the middle.

Also with the amount of blitzing that happens in todays NFL means your interior players are going 1 on 1 more often.

The great passing attacks/successful teams in the NFL have really good interior OL play,

49ers: Iuapti and Boone
Ravens: Yanda, Osemele
Patriots: Mankins, Connoly

In the Bears case Gabe Carimi sucks. Journeymen John Scott stepped in after that game and stabilized the position.

Good OG play makes OT play easier and allows the QB to step up negating the speed of players like Ware to a degree.
I don't disagree that good OG play is a huge benefit to the passing game, however the best pass rushers tend to line up outside. Teams can't line up with 4 DEs all the time because then teams will run on that front. But it's like I mentioned above, if you have a weakness anywhere on your offensive line teams will expose it.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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I respect your opinion. What do you think of a team drafting Fluker to play Guard?

Been a good discussion so far. Nice thoughts by John Candy and Possible Cabbage.
I could see teams drafting Fluker to play guard. Teams these days do draft guards a lot earlier than they used to.

I could also see him being drafted by a team like the Giants who want to upgrade both LG and RT and seeing how he performs at both positions and go from there.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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I don't disagree that good OG play is a huge benefit to the passing game, however the best pass rushers tend to line up outside. Teams can't line up with 4 DEs all the time because then teams will run on that front. But it's like I mentioned above, if you have a weakness anywhere on your offensive line teams will expose it.
Agreed that the best pass rushers are outside.

But by playing OT you can get beat up field and still have the pass rusher not affect the play. You have more space to work with on the outside and as long as they go wide you are fine.

Inside you can't get beat or give up ground on either side because both lead to pressure.

Also it is easier with TEs and RBs to help a RT in pass portection without disrupting what is going on in the play.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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I'm really starting to be convinced... but is this creative forum draft talk or will teams really do it? :)

edit: I might have just thought up the answer to my own question... Cowboys fixed Leonard Davis when they moved him from Tackle to Guard. I can see Fluker similarly used.
The Leonard Davis comparison is a good one since they are simialr sizes and skill sets.

Leonard was an average OT with the Cardinals.

Leonard was a Pro Bowl OG with the Cowboys.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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The Leonard Davis comparison is a good one since they are simialr sizes and skill sets.

Leonard was an average OT with the Cardinals.

Leonard was a Pro Bowl OG with the Cowboys.
I guess another thing to note is that not every team would look at him at either OG or OT. ZBS teams probably wouldn't.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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Still think he gets drafted to play RT and unless he flops there, there is little chance he ever plays OG. Late round 1 to early round 2 is his likely draft position.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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I guess another thing to note is that not every team would look at him at either OG or OT. ZBS teams probably wouldn't.
I doubt ZBS teams look at him at all.

I am hesitant to say that because a player faced this or that competition he must be good. That was my argument for Gabe Carimi being the #1 OT in his class. Obviously that was not correct.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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I could easily see the Bills drafting Fluker as a LG at #41 if Levitre leaves in free agency.

Talk about a powerfull left side for that oline...
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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Is D.J Fluker a more mentally stable Shawn Andrews?

Similar physical builds, Fluker [6'5" 355lbs, 36.5" arms], Andrews [6'4" 366lbs. 34" arms]

Similar level of competition SEC.

Similar strengths [size, power and position versatility] and similar weaknesses [feet, tackle movement skills.]
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Still think he gets drafted to play RT and unless he flops there, there is little chance he ever plays OG. Late round 1 to early round 2 is his likely draft position.
Most teams will prioritize RT over LG.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Is D.J Fluker a more mentally stable Shawn Andrews?

Similar physical builds, Fluker [6'5" 355lbs, 36.5" arms], Andrews [6'4" 366lbs. 34" arms]

Similar level of competition SEC.

Similar strengths [size, power and position versatility] and similar weaknesses [feet, tackle movement skills.]
Honestly, he doesn't even look like he has a brain. Just bred to play football and nothing else. I think his interview will have to be important. Especially teams that prioritize intelligence at the position.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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The Bears are going to a Saints type passing and protection game with the hiring of New Orleans OC/OL coach Aaron Kromer.

The main issue the Bears have is that they do not have there version of Carl Nicks and Jahri Evans and they allow a ton of pressure up the middle.

Fluker could be their Carl Nicks at LG.
While they do allow a ton of pressure up the middle, they, in fact, allow more on the edges.

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The pressure that disrupts QBs more than anything is the pressure up the middle.

Also with the amount of blitzing that happens in todays NFL means your interior players are going 1 on 1 more often.

The great passing attacks/successful teams in the NFL have really good interior OL play,

49ers: Iuapti and Boone
Ravens: Yanda, Osemele
Patriots: Mankins, Connoly

In the Bears case Gabe Carimi sucks. Journeymen John Scott stepped in after that game and stabilized the position.

Good OG play makes OT play easier and allows the QB to step up negating the speed of players like Ware to a degree.
I'm sorry, but you're uninformed here. Yes, Carimi sucks at RT. His pass pro was abysmal. However, in his time at RG, it was better. At both positions, he was among the best in the NFL in run blocking. The man clearly has a future at RG if he doesn't turn it around at RT. John Scott did not stabilize the position. His pass pro was barely better and his run blocking was nonexistent. He was actually a net loss for the Bears. I expect that he will not be offered a contract this offseason. RT is very much a need, as the Bears don't have one.
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