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Old 01-18-2013, 02:16 PM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
I don't know that it's a fad. The key term is read option. It's an option to run, not a prerogative. It's a running back's running play first - the QB reads the defensive end and if he overplays the handoff, the QB takes 5 yards (or more, or less, or whatever the situation allows). The problem is when quarterbacks like RGIII think of the plays as a 50/50 decision every time; what RGIII needs to learn is to let Alfred Morris be Washington's primary runner, and then use his own running ability when the opportunity is given to him. Again, understanding when those opportunities are available is the "read" part of the read option. RGIII thinks "I can make this play!" when he should be thinking, "Is the defense telling me I should run?"

That's what's going to extend these quarterback's careers and make the read option a viable NFL scheme - quarterbacks who know it's supposed to be plan B for them to take the ball and run. It should keep defenses honest and make plan A - the running back taking a handoff - more effective. For all their ability, quarterbacks who run the read option just need to keep in mind that they are playing a different position than the player they're handing off to and have different responsibilities. Clearly, if a player like RGIII plays quarterback like a tall running back with a big arm, he's opening himself up to a lot of punishment he doesn't need to take. The running back needs to take the punishment; the quarterback should only keep if he has the self-control to slide or get down before he's gotten every possible yard. i.e., the quarterback should only keep if, in reading the play, he sees that the defense has given him something in its effort to stop plan A - the running back.
Unfortunately, like RG111, they are going to take some real hits sooner or later and the injuries will follow. Defenses will catch up a little at a time and really lay the body on these running QB's even if it means the odd penalty.
There is a reason why pro football has always been reluctant to have QB's who can run the ball, it is injuries. RB's have a 5 year shelf life because teams go after them and have real opportunities to lay the body on them and that is what is going to happen to Kaepernick and Wilson. I predict very short careers for these 3 QB's.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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Seahawks and Niners unite Lol
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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I think Kaepernick and Wilson can handle the read-option without getting hurt. Wilson is short and stockily built by QB standards. I think he can take a hit and he doesn't seem like the kind of player who exposes himself to too many big hits. Kaepernick is a big guy whose running style doesn't expose him to a lot of hits, as he tends to run out of bounds. RG3 has issues because he tries to juke guys and make plays like a running back. Sure, I expect Kaepernick to run less read-option late in his career, but I don't think he is necessarily going to be injury-prone. With SF's offensive line and running game, he should take fewer hits than the average QB, even if he does run the zone-read.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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what about when the gameplan becomes hit the qb every option play regardless if he carries it or not like a few games Tebow had last season?
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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My thoughts on Kaepernick?

Big nose, annoying voice, stupid tattoos. 2/10. Would not bang.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:08 PM    (permalink
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My thoughts on Kaepernick?

Big nose, annoying voice, stupid tattoos. 2/10. Would not bang.
You forgot "Kicker of Packer's ass".

Now you know how we felt when Farve came on the scene.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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This. If your reading your keys correctly, you won't expose yourself any more than a typical QB scramble. I still say its not ideal to for it be a focal part of your gameplan over a long period of time. But how many big hits did CK take from the Packers defense? If your reading the ends like your supposed to, the QB shouldn't even be getting touched.

Too many look at RG3 and say it won't last. RG3 was reckless with it. I see Wilson and CK sliding even on minimal gains, not fighting for extra yards and going out of bounds. Their smarter with it than RG3. Plus in CK's case, he's 6'4, 230 lbs. He's built like a LB, not a QB. Guys like him and Cam can absorb hits that Wilson and RG3 can't.
There is also the possibility that the defense can crash the DE every single time on purpose. This forces the QB to run it, just by mandate of the read option. More QB runs equals more QB exposures. Maybe defenses will start doing this to force the offense to beat them with QB instead of RB, which I would rather do with Washington (Morris more physical runner than Griffin).

That's the thing with this offense. It's reactionary to what the defense does, so the defense can force your hand and dictate what you do. This isn't necessarily bad, but the defense can tilt things in their favor by dictating which matchup is more advantageous to them.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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I think Kaepernick and Wilson can handle the read-option without getting hurt. Wilson is short and stockily built by QB standards. I think he can take a hit and he doesn't seem like the kind of player who exposes himself to too many big hits. Kaepernick is a big guy whose running style doesn't expose him to a lot of hits, as he tends to run out of bounds. RG3 has issues because he tries to juke guys and make plays like a running back. Sure, I expect Kaepernick to run less read-option late in his career, but I don't think he is necessarily going to be injury-prone. With SF's offensive line and running game, he should take fewer hits than the average QB, even if he does run the zone-read.
Even Tim Tebow had to miss time because of a rib injury this year. These guys might look tough enough to withstand getting broken in half, but they are most likely not conditioned for the little nicks and cuts that RBs and deal with every week. You also have to factor in how minor injuries affect throwing motions, footwork, mobility in the pocket, etc.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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Don't forget both RG3's injuries came because he chose NOT to slide and instead either tried to turn the corner on pursuit along the sideline, or pick up yards cutting back into the open field.

If a QB runs the zone read believing they can pick up 60+ yards rushing on every carry, that QB is going to get smashed at some point.

For a cerebral QB, Griffin still has a lot to learn about running 'his' offense from Kaepernick and Wilson.

For the right QBs, running the zone read isn't going anywhere since it's only about 20% of the offense.

CK is going to be running the zone read as long as he's the starting QB under Harbaugh, and the less frequently it's run makes it harder to defend.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:21 AM    (permalink
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Don't forget both RG3's injuries came because he chose NOT to slide and instead either tried to turn the corner on pursuit along the sideline, or pick up yards cutting back into the open field.

If a QB runs the zone read believing they can pick up 60+ yards rushing on every carry, that QB is going to get smashed at some point.

For a cerebral QB, Griffin still has a lot to learn about running 'his' offense from Kaepernick and Wilson.

For the right QBs, running the zone read isn't going anywhere since it's only about 20% of the offense.

CK is going to be running the zone read as long as he's the starting QB under Harbaugh, and the less frequently it's run makes it harder to defend.
Exactly....excellent post. And just to piggy-back off that. You can shift out of the pistol and toy with defenses. You can shift into a pistol formation from a regular set, like I-Formation and now you got the defense adjusting their spilts, scrambling to get guys into place, and then you hike the ball. Its just the added element of having to defend it...worrying about it EVERY time the offense breaks the huddle, that makes it tough on defenses. Becuase all it takes is one wrong alignment or one blown assignment and its a huge gain or a big first down. And we're not even talking about the passing elements you can run off on it to really add a different element of attack.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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Exactly....excellent post. And just to piggy-back off that. You can shift out of the pistol and toy with defenses. You can shift into a pistol formation from a regular set, like I-Formation and now you got the defense adjusting their spilts, scrambling to get guys into place, and then you hike the ball. Its just the added element of having to defend it...worrying about it EVERY time the offense breaks the huddle, that makes it tough on defenses. Becuase all it takes is one wrong alignment or one blown assignment and its a huge gain or a big first down. And we're not even talking about the passing elements you can run off on it to really add a different element of attack.
Sure, it's new to the NFL and in its early stages, they will have trouble adjusting to it like defenses did for every new offense that came to the NFL. However, make no mistake, NFL defenses will eventually catch up to the pistol. In the meantime, NFL defensive coordinators know 1 thing, hit the QB hard and he may be out of the game. The QB's can do great things in the pistol but every time they take off, there is a huge risk that their careers may come to a halt, Teams won't care if they get penalized occasionally, they are going to attack the QB and try to injury him and sooner or later, they catch him going the wrong way. I saw CK fail to slide against Green Bay and got caught between 2 defenders, he survived but will he the next time.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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The zone read/read option is going to be like running play action once a team has established its running game. I don't see how LBs and safeties aren't going to bite forward at least a step which is all the QB wants.

Defensive players don't have time to think on a football field, the game happens in milliseconds where guys have to react and not waste time diagnosing what's happening in front of them.

If the OLB/DE assumes CK is going to run on every outside zone read handoff, RBs like Frank Gore are going to rush for 200+ yards.

Even Aaron Rodgers said it might take 10(!!) years for NFL defenses to figure out the read option, which IMO means no one is ever going to really lock into how to stop it.

When you only run read option 1/5 of your total offensive snaps, the advantage goes to the offense.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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The zone read/read option is going to be like running play action once a team has established its running game. I don't see how LBs and safeties aren't going to bite forward at least a step which is all the QB wants.

Defensive players don't have time to think on a football field, the game happens in milliseconds where guys have to react and not waste time diagnosing what's happening in front of them.

If the OLB/DE assumes CK is going to run on every outside zone read handoff, RBs like Frank Gore are going to rush for 200+ yards.

Even Aaron Rodgers said it might take 10(!!) years for NFL defenses to figure out the read option, which IMO means no one is ever going to really lock into how to stop it.

When you only run read option 1/5 of your total offensive snaps, the advantage goes to the offense.
There is still a pretty big risk to it though. If this offense doesn't slow down every defensive cooridnator will teach their edge guys to hit the QB. He's not a QB anymore as he becomes either a runner or a blocker. There is a way around every offensive playcall and a way around every defensive play call. The more common the read option becomes the easier it will be to defend
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:55 AM    (permalink
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The zone read/read option is going to be like running play action once a team has established its running game. I don't see how LBs and safeties aren't going to bite forward at least a step which is all the QB wants.

Defensive players don't have time to think on a football field, the game happens in milliseconds where guys have to react and not waste time diagnosing what's happening in front of them.

Quote:
Players spend endless hours watching tape every practice and even on their own. Right now they aren't used to the pistol so recognition comes more slowly to them in a game, but given time they'll adjust and react far quicker to the pistol.
I remember when New England and Pittsburgh were the only teams to play a 3-4 defense and both team's defenses dominated in games. Today, so many teams play a 3-4 that offenses attack it easily, so much so, that NE switched to a 4-3.

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More and more teams will run a pistol as the NFL is definitely a copy cat league and defenses will see it a lot, believe me they'll adjust, but most important, even now, they will go after the QB every time he runs the ball.
If the OLB/DE assumes CK is going to run on every outside zone read handoff, RBs like Frank Gore are going to rush for 200+ yards.

Even Aaron Rodgers said it might take 10(!!) years for NFL defenses to figure out the read option, which IMO means no one is ever going to really lock into how to stop it.

When you only run read option 1/5 of your total offensive snaps, the advantage goes to the offense.
My guess, if either Wilson or CK gets seriously hurt, teams may well shy away from running the offense a whole lot.
Sure, it looks great today but if RG111 is only a shell of his former self, what good was it really, for Washington.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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Instead of pointing fingers or gloating let's examine why Kaepernick may have been underrated coming out of college. Of course we have to cite the obligatory "It's Only One Game" factor...

Personally, I was concerned about the adjustment from the Pistol Offense to a pro style system. I don't think anyone could deny the incredible physical tools, but the reason I had Kaepernick graded as a third rounder is because I felt he was a project. Also, to take a quarterback as early as Kaepernick went there is usually pressure to play them even if they aren't ready. Kaepernick obviously went into a good situation with a strong team and outstanding quarterback coach and it sure seems to be working out, but what if he had been selected by the Oakland Raiders?

I have a question for everyone: Do you think if Kaepernick was in the 2013 NFL Draft he would be a more highly-regarded pro prospect because there are more mobile quarterbacks having success in the league now than there were a couple of years ago? I absolutely do.
Actually, you blew it. You stated you never saw Kaepernick as being a major project and that he would never start a game.


Obviously with the read option being such a big part of some offenses, teams would not only overlook, but perhaps even be overjoyed with his experience. I don't see how, based on his production at Nevada and tape which clearly showed the arm talent, size, speed, and playmaking ability (as well as durability and production), he wouldn't be the number 1 QB in 2013.

CK was my favorite QB from 2011 and that was a very strong class. This class is weak and full of questions. There were less quesitons, in mind, than all of the QBs of this season's crop.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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Please don't try and act like you're so mature and better than everyone. It wasn't "nice" of you to go out and dig up an old thread to call out people who didn't think a prospect would be as good as you did. I'm sure you missed on prospects too, we all do. Quit being a sore-winner. If you really are so mature then start acting like it by not calling people out on a wrong prediction a year later like a child.

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No it's not an attack, it's my way of telling an overzealous child who doesn't know how to take a win in stride to calm down and stop post whoring and "attacking" people who made a wrong prediction a year later.
Oh, so you're an expert in child care? I'm an expert in housebreaking unruly pets. And when Fido takes a crap on the rug, it doesn't hurt to rub his nose in it. If people want to make statements damning a prospect, when that prospect totally proves those people wrong in a year's time, I think it is appropriate to rub their nose in their mess.

It's one thread, if you don't want to read it, then don't. In hindsight I should've done things better, perhaps compiled the grades into one post, but I didn't. My mistake.

The 49ers are in the Super Bowl in large part because of Kaepernick and yet people were still trying to discredit him as a fantastic young QB until he won the Atlanta game.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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There is still a pretty big risk to it though. If this offense doesn't slow down every defensive cooridnator will teach their edge guys to hit the QB. He's not a QB anymore as he becomes either a runner or a blocker. There is a way around every offensive playcall and a way around every defensive play call. The more common the read option becomes the easier it will be to defend
If the QB doesn't carry out the fake then the defensive player cannot hit him. Much like a regular QB handing off to a RB in I formation.

Somebody had stated that they didn't like CK because his speed was straightline, I think that is to his benefit. I would much rather have my QB taking what is there and getting down rather than cutting back or juking defenders. CK took very few hits in the QB game, he slid most of the time and kept himself out of harm's way.

It's guys like Griffen and Vick that will get hurt because they BECOME RBs once they break the LOS. Guys like Wilson, CK, and even Newton, still remain QBs and generally slide instead of taking on contact.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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49ers are in the superbowl because largely there team is very talented every where and they have a great coach. Kaep is doing great but he is not the sole driving reason for the 49ers success. 9ers are stacked. Kaepernick is a good young QB who is playing great right now. He's no Joe Flacco, but he's pretty good.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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CK is a big part of the reason the 49ers are where they are this year.
This isn't a Roethlisberger situation where in his 2nd year he wasn't really asked to be the man and instead just don't lose the game.

THe 49ers D is good, but they aren't good enough to carry an offense that can't score or a QB who can't make plays.

IMO CK is one of the top 5 most important players on SF's football team.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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49ers are in the superbowl because largely there team is very talented every where and they have a great coach. Kaep is doing great but he is not the sole driving reason for the 49ers success. 9ers are stacked. Kaepernick is a good young QB who is playing great right now. He's no Joe Flacco, but he's pretty good.
Basically Alex Smith would have got them there too.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:02 PM    (permalink
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He just doesn't have Tebow's winningness.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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I don't think they could run the read option effectively with Smith. CK helps them score points, on a team that if full of pro bowl players.. about 11 of them I think.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Basically Alex Smith would have got them there too.
No, Alex Smith, even at his best, is a glorified care-taker. The 49ers have looked like a completely different team under CK. His ability to fire the ball downfield with accuracy and zip have given a group of receivers a chance to make the best use of their athletic talents. Look at Michael Crabtree. Under Smith he looked like a plodding WR that couldn't gain separation, with CK as his QB he was repeatedly hit in stride and validates his high selection with his great hands and physical running after the catch. Under Smith he was an afterthought.

There is no chance Smith leads the team to a comeback against the Falcons and even less chance he rallies the team and nearly wins it against the Ravens. Smith was baffled and confounded by the Vikings earlier in the year, just imagine what the Ravens and Falcons would have done to him on the much larger stage.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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I think it will prove to be a fad, RG111 is already injured and not likey to be able to plant his throwing foot equally well upon his return. Teams will start to go after Kaepernick and Wilson and try to damage their legs ASAP. How long will their careers last, not very long I think?
The NFL fact has always been, run your QB at your own risk, it is quite another to put your QB at risk quite a bit in a game and I just don't see them surviving very long. A couple of crippling injuries, and nobody will want to try it again.
Neither of RGIII's injuries occurred during a read option play.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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Unfortunately, like RG111, they are going to take some real hits sooner or later and the injuries will follow. Defenses will catch up a little at a time and really lay the body on these running QB's even if it means the odd penalty.
There is a reason why pro football has always been reluctant to have QB's who can run the ball, it is injuries. RB's have a 5 year shelf life because teams go after them and have real opportunities to lay the body on them and that is what is going to happen to Kaepernick and Wilson. I predict very short careers for these 3 QB's.
How many hits did Brett Farve take in the pocket over his long career?
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