I think if you're Kansas City, which most of this conversation centers around, you trade back into the middle to late first round and get as good a QB as you would earlier. If you take Smith or anyone else at the top of the draft you're setting yourself up to be out of a job in two years.
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Originally Posted by Babylon
I think if you're Kansas City, which most of this conversation centers around, you trade back into the middle to late first round and get as good a QB as you would earlier. If you take Smith or anyone else at the top of the draft you're setting yourself up to be out of a job in two years.
Can you please explain this because I really don't understand the thinking here. This team is major flaw and the reason they're the worst team in the NFL is because of the *brutal* QB play they've gotten this year. How would getting an inferior player at by far the most important position on the team be better for anybody in KC?
Can you please explain this because I really don't understand the thinking here. This team is major flaw and the reason they're the worst team in the NFL is because of the *brutal* QB play they've gotten this year. How would getting an inferior player at by far the most important position on the team be better for anybody in KC?
I think the entire point behind that post was that Babylon didn't see a dropoff between quarterbacks at the top of the first round and in the middle of the first round. Also, let's be honest, the Chiefs are a better team on paper than in reality. They have only two legitimate offensive weapons: Dwayne Bowe and Jamaal Charles; Bowe is set to become a free agent at the end of the season and may not be back. Branden Albert has an expiring deal and would leave a gaping hole at left tackle if he is not re-signed to a long-term extension. No one on their defensive line has made an impact; Tyson Jackson and Glenn Dorsey will likely become free agents at the end of the season. Roster depth is decidedly lacking. A quarterback is easily the biggest need, but any team with one or two wins at the end of the year has more holes than that.
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Originally Posted by Matthew Jones
I think the entire point behind that post was that Babylon didn't see a dropoff between quarterbacks at the top of the first round and in the middle of the first round. Also, let's be honest, the Chiefs are a better team on paper than in reality. They have only two legitimate offensive weapons: Dwayne Bowe and Jamaal Charles; Bowe is set to become a free agent at the end of the season and may not be back. Branden Albert has an expiring deal and would leave a gaping hole at left tackle if he is not re-signed to a long-term extension. No one on their defensive line has made an impact; Tyson Jackson and Glenn Dorsey will likely become free agents at the end of the season. Roster depth is decidedly lacking. A quarterback is easily the biggest need, but any team with one or two wins at the end of the year has more holes than that.
I'll take KC's roster depth over most team's that have held the #1 pick in recent years. Them being a legit QB away from being relevant holds truer to them than to a lot of teams that hold the top pick. I'd still be opposed to it but it would be a little bit different if there was a slam dunk player at another 'money position' where they had a hole, but there isn't.
And Babylon is wrong. Most of the people who believe this stuff are wrong. They are flat wrong.
I may be wrong but i doubt it. Don't force the draft. If there isn't someone with a grade high enough to be drafted at the top then just don't do it. Having said that i think there will be someone who will surprise. Just not sure who that someone will be.
my scent?...like making love to a lumberjack
<TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
<+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
<+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermstheman83
What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
1st&10 throws a poor screen attempt while falling away off his back foot. Pass goes over Buie's head. Incomplete.
3rd&3 little shovel pass to an in-motion Tavon Austin, who eludes defenders for the first down.
1st&10 windup seems longer than usual, but fires a dart over the middle. 8 yards. Second or third read.
3rd&2 decides to scramble and picks up the first down.
3rd&6 pressure arrives early and he spins off, but keeps his head down and runs into the second wave for an eventual sack.
1st&10 playaction, has all kinds of time to throw, eventually gives up the idea of a deep ball down the left sideline and throws it short right. 2 yards. Second read.
2nd&8 throws a hitch to a blanketed receiver who catches it and is tackled. No gain. First read.
3rd&8 throws a good pass to a receiver left open on a stop route just beyond the markers. First down. First or second read.
1st&10 andother shovel pass to a sweeping Tavon Austin. 9 yards.
2nd&1 Smith wants Bailey deep left and throws it to him. Defenders grab, flag comes out. First down. First read.
1st&10 wants to throw right but it isn't there. Middle of the field is open so he tucks and runs for a first down.
1st&10 throws short left to Bailey who makes a defender miss then drags another one past the marker. First down. First read.
1st&Goal throws another short pass left to Bailey, who picks up about 7. First read.
1st&10 makes an accurate throw over the middle to a leaping receiver. First down. First read.
1st&10 almost identical to the previous play, but the receiver was running a deep slant from the opposite side. Geno drills a pass that needed to be very accurate. First down. First or second read.
2nd&Goal pass rush comes free but Geno Smith gets off a beautiful pass as he's backpedaling. Hit right after he threw. Touchdown. First read.
2nd&15 throws left to a receiver who is quickly tackled. 8 yards. Might've been a second or third option, but there were three receivers at levels on the left side.
3rd&7 throws short left to a covered receiver. Pass is broken up. First or second read.
1st&10 is looking left initially before throwing a screen to the right. Minimal gain.
1st&10 playaction, looks left before turning right and throwing a very good pass to the sideline. 9 yards. Second read.
2nd&1 throws short left to Austin, who makes several defenders miss. First down. First read.
2nd&10 playaction, then a beautiful deep pass to Stedman Bailey, who makes an equally-impressive catch with a defender on his hip. Touchdown. First read.
1st&10 has a lot of time to throw after a playaction, hits a receiver beyond the markers on a crossing route. First down. First or second read.
1st&10 short left to Bailey. 7 yards. First read.
1st&10 short right to Woods. 8 yards. First read.
2nd& 2 playaction, intended receiver isn't open, buys some time before seeing a receiver running uncovered across the back of the endzone. Majorly blown coverage. Touchdown.First or second read.
Inside 2:00, First Half
1st&10 hits a wide-open Tavon Austin over the middle, who makes several moves and turns a nice play into a huge gain. Gains around 50 yards. Second or third read.
1st&10 Smith doesn't think he has anyone open and sees a bunch of green in front of him so scrambles for about 7.
1st&10 throws a short out across the field. gain of about 7. Second read.
2nd&2 gets another beautiful pocket to pass from, throws a deep post across the middle. Caught and tackled immediately at about the 5. First read.
2nd&Goal knows he's throwing it Bailey in the corner all the way, throws a really nice ball and Bailey catches it. Touchdown. First read.
Second Half
1st&10 throws a deep post to Bailey, who is double-covered. Pass is broken up. First read.
2nd&10 flips to to the right. 5 yards. First read.
3rd&4 throws a screen to Bailey over the middle. First down.
1st&10 throws a short slant to Tavon Austin, who catches it, breaks a tackle and takes it all the way. Touchdown. First read.
2nd&10 drifts back away from the pocket before finally throwing it to his running back. Looked like a half-hearted screen play. picks up about 5.
3rd&5 looks left, doesn't see a receiver, looks back to his right and makes a nice throw in coverage about two yards past the marker. WVU's line easily handled a three-man rush. First down. Second or third read.
1st&10 playaction, then a quick hitch to Bailey, who gets a nice block from Austin and makes a couple guys miss en route to a nice gain. First down. First read.
2nd&12 rifles a pass towards Tavon on a slant. Pass is a little behind and Tavon can't come up with it. Incomplete. First read.
3rd&12 gets a lot of time and uses it wisely, looking back and forth across the filed before eventually heaving one up for Tavon, who's come uncovered behind the defense. Touchdown. Second or third read.
2nd&9 playaction, then he throws a gorgeous deep ball to Bailey. First down. First read.
1st&Goal short left to Austin. 3 yards. First read.
2nd&7 Gets a good pocket, decides not to throw it deep, so comes back and throws a pass to his right near the markers. Broken up, incomplete. Second read.
3rd&7 looked like he wanted Bailey all the way on a crossing route, but only picks up 3 yards. First read.
1st&10 playaction to Austin and Baylor forgets to cover Stedman Bailey. Geno sees it immediately. 82-yard Touchdown.
1st&10 throws short right and his receiver is tackled before he gets back to the line of scrimmage. Second read.
2nd&11 looks left, middle, then right before throwing to a short crossing route. 4 yard gain.
3rd&7 He's been getting great protection all day and he again scans the field from left to right before making a nice throw towards the sideline. First down.
2nd&7 again has all day and after a play fake overthrows Tavon Austin deep downfield. First read.
3rd&7 eludes the rush and takes the grass in front of him for a first down.
2nd&4 throws it short right. First down. First read.
2nd&12 playaction, good protection, throws another nice deep ball to a wide-open Stedman Bailey. Touchdown. First or second read.
2nd&10playaction, then throws a slightly errant pass to Woods, who makes a one-handed catch and runs for the first down. First read.
2nd&9 playaction, then passes to Tavon Austin on a bootleg the opposite direction. 8 yards. First read.
Geno Smith vs. Texas
2nd&7 passes it short to the receiver waiting in the flat. 7 yards. First read.
3rd&3 stands tall in a crowded pocket, goes away from his first read and hits a receiver coming back across the deep middle. first down.
1st&Goal playaction quick slant to Bailey. TD. First read.
3rd&9 playaction pocket collapses, is flushed backwards but eludes rush and scrambles for 7. Punt.
3rd&11 decides not to throw it down the sideline and throws it to a receiver across the middle short of the marker, in front of two defenders who are also in front of the marker. No YAC. Punt.
1st&10 throws a deep post too far in front of his receiver. First read.
2nd&10 clean pocket, short out, Bailey bobbles it out of bounds. First read.
3rd&10 throws a short slant to Tavon Austin, who is tackled short of the marker. First read.
4th&4 has a receiver open in the flat waiting for a quick hitch, but inexplicably doesn't throw it and steps up into a sack.
4th&4 throws it to Tavon Austin, wide open crossing the middle after getting his defender to bite badly, who catches it around the 30 and eludes about half of Texas' defense on his way into the endzone. TD. First read.
2nd&8 fake reverse, screen, first down.
1st&10 playaction, bootleg, throws it to his receiver's feet on the sideline. Getting rid of it? First read.
3rd&9 waits in a decent pocket before throwing incomplete to the end zone for Tavon Austin, who has two defenders on him. First read. (Commentor relevant: "Why do you throw this ball into what appears to be double-coverage? Why didn't you see that? You know why? Because he counts on his receivers to win a lot of routes.")
4th&9 throws an out to the sideline for a first down. Good composure, accurate throw. First read.
2nd&Goal playaction, backpedals away from a collapsing pocket, throws it out the back of the endzone.
2nd&14 flea-flicker, first read isn't there, looks to his left, pass rush has broken through, tries to dodge rushers until they finally get him down. Texas' defense wasn't fooled by the play, credit to them.
2nd&11 short receiver screen across the middle, caught 3 yards behind the LOS and no YAC. First read.
3rd&14 sitting in the pocket for about 3 seconds with his eyes trained towards the left sideline, waiting patiently and with composure until the backside rush gets to him and knocks the ball out of his hand. Texas recovers on the 1-foot line.
1st&10 playaction, throws left to an uncovered Stedman Bailey. First down. First read.
1st&10 screen attempt failed. Incomplete.
2nd&10 looks left, right, then back to left as he drops, but pressure arrives and he is sacked.
1st&10 short pass to Bailey picks up 8 after he spins off the first tackler. First read.
2nd&5 playaction, hits a receiver in the hands for what should've been a touchdown. Incomplete. First read.
3rd&5 defender comes free through the middle, sack. LG is standing with his hands down watching the guy he was supposed to be blocking sack his quarterback.
Inside 2 minutes, First half.
2nd&3 throws a short slant to an uncovered Stedman Bailey. First down. First read.
1st&10 throws a pass to Austin in the flat that hits the ground. Incomplete. First read.
1st&5 throws to Austin in the flat who beats defense to first down marker at the sideline. First read.
1st&10 throws a bad pass deep left to a receiver who has two defenders on him. Incomplete. First read.
2nd&10 has his running back running wide open behind Texas' defense, who is so excited at being the most wide-open he has ever been in his life, immediately stumbles into a somersault after catching the pass. First down. Second read.
1st&10 throws to a covered receiver over the middle after not liking what he saw to his left, pass is broken up. Incomplete. Second read.
2nd&10 outside screen to Bailey picks up 5. First read.
Second Half
2nd&2 playaction, throws medium right out. On-target pass, first down. First read.
2nd&14 faked reverse, threw a screen to the right. Buie has a great run and picks up a big gain. First down.
1st&10 drills the ball between two defenders over the middle. First down. First read.
3rd&3 steps up in the pocket and drills another nice pass to Bailey on a slant. Bailey makes a terrific diving catch in the endzone. Touchdown. First read.
1st&10 shovel pass is eaten up.
2nd&14 throws a crossfield out to Austin. 8 yards. First read.
3rd&6 throws a short slant to Woods at the marker over the middle. It was a good pass that probably ought to have been caught. Defender is playing tight, though, and credited with a breakup. Incomplete. Second read.
4th&6 hits Tavon Austin running towards the sideline with two defenders near, who makes a leaping catch while getting hit. First down. First read.
4th&2 takes a QB sneak for 10 yards. First down.
2nd&4 playaction, then hits Bailey on a short slant in the endzone between three defenders. Touchdown. First read.
1st&20 is given a great pocket, is looking left for several seconds waiting for his receiver to come open until the ball is again knocked out of his hand by a defender he didn't see. Turnover.
2nd&11 throws a very good out to Bailey, who catches it on the sideline. First down. First read.
Last edited by Caulibflower : 01-27-2013 at 10:54 PM.
I took notes on individual games so I could refer specifically to some tendencies, because he's turning into one of the more polarizing prospects in this draft. It didn't really take that long. I write a lot.
Geno's got a great arm. He throws some really terrific deep passes. But the thing is, it's usually his plan the whole time. WVU kept defenses off-balance last year by having a pretty good run game and a variety of short passes that made defenses guess where the ball would be going, but the play was generally decided before the snap. Tavon Austin and Stedman Bailey were probably the best wideout combo in college football last year, so there were a lot of situations where Geno just waited until the guy he wanted to throw to got open.
That's what makes it somewhat difficult to knock Geno for not going through progressions very often - often his first read is a good read. He also consistently had good protection. WVU's line was giving him a lot of time to wait in the pocket before making his throw. But his pocket presense is mediocre at best. He gets hit from his blindside more often than he should, and multiple times I've seen him sacked when he could have escaped - it doesn't look to me like he senses pressure very well.
To me, Geno Smith is a good athlete with a good build and throws some really nice passes. But I don't see him as an intuitive player. He executed his offense well, and I take no points from him just for running a quick-hitting offense where he wasn't really asked to make a lot of reads. However, one of the most important traits an NFL quarterback needs to have is the ability to react to defenses mid-play, and that's something you see precious little of when you're watching Geno Smith. He doesn't look nervous at all in the pocket, and that's something I want to give him a lot of credit for. By no means is this a Blaine Gabbert situation. But when the play Geno wants isn't there, it's pretty rare for him to make a big play where you think, "Wow, that was all Geno there." WVU, as a team, has had those moments offensively, but they're not usually Geno moments. I really want to emphasize that I'm not saying "Geno sucks," but that his receivers look like they'll be legitimate NFL weapons, and his line has generally played pretty well for him. If he's a legitimate second-round type prospect (someone I think has the tools but hasn't shown quite enough for me to want to take him as my team's first pick), having two players who pretty reasonably compare to Antonio Brown and Percy Harvin can make you look like first-rounder, especially if your best trait is airing it out.
Last edited by Caulibflower : 01-27-2013 at 07:21 PM.
I took notes on individual games so I could refer specifically to some tendencies, because he's turning into one of the more polarizing prospects in this draft. It didn't really take that long. I write a lot.
Geno's got a great arm. He throws some really terrific deep passes. But the thing is, it's usually his plan the whole time. WVU kept defenses off-balance last year by having a pretty good run game and a variety of short passes that made defenses guess where the ball would be going, but the play was generally decided before the snap. Tavon Austin and Stedman Bailey were probably the best wideout combo in college football last year, so there were a lot of situations where Geno just waited until the guy he wanted to throw to got open.
That's what makes it somewhat difficult to knock Geno for not going through progressions very often - often his first read is a good read. He also consistently had good protection. WVU's line was giving him a lot of time to wait in the pocket before making his throw. But his pocket presense is mediocre at best. He gets hit from his blindside more often than he should, and multiple times I've seen him sacked when he could have escaped - it doesn't look to me like he senses pressure very well.
To me, Geno Smith is a good athlete with a good build and throws some really nice passes. But I don't see him as an intuitive player. He executed his offense well, and I take no points from him just for running a quick-hitting offense where he wasn't really asked to make a lot of reads. However, one of the most important traits an NFL quarterback needs to have is the ability to react to defenses mid-play, and that's something you see precious little of when you're watching Geno Smith. He doesn't look nervous at all in the pocket, and that's something I want to give him a lot of credit for. By no means is this a Blaine Gabbert situation. But when the play Geno wants isn't there, it's pretty rare for him to make a big play where you think, "Wow, that was all Geno there." WVU, as a team, has had those moments offensively, but they're not usually Geno moments. I really want to emphasize that I'm not saying "Geno sucks," but that his receivers look like they'll be legitimate NFL weapons, and his line has generally played pretty well for him. If he's a legitimate second-round type prospect (someone I think has the tools but hasn't shown quite enough for me to want to take him as my team's first pick), having two players who pretty reasonably compare to Antonio Brown and Percy Harvin can make you look like first-rounder, especially if your best trait is airing it out.
did you watch all our games? our line was not good, only our center madesen was
and our running game was awful after the texas game; our big back alston was out after that and we struggled without him
most wvu fans will tell you our line was not good...at all
did you watch all our games? our line was not good, only our center madesen was
and our running game was awful after the texas game; our big back alston was out after that and we struggled without him
most wvu fans will tell you our line was not good...at all
I did not. I guess I didn't mean that to be a blanket statement. Geno looked pretty clean against Baylor the whole game, and then against Texas more pressure got to him but it wasn't like it was constantly in his face. In most of the games I've seen, I haven't seen the line as being a huge liability.
I did not. I guess I didn't mean that to be a blanket statement. Geno looked pretty clean against Baylor the whole game, and then against Texas more pressure got to him but it wasn't like it was constantly in his face. In most of the games I've seen, I haven't seen the line as being a huge liability.
it was bad after the texas game
our fb was hurt and alston our big back was also hurt; they cleaned up a lot of the missed blocks
and we only ran really well against texas, mainly bc they were pretty bad against the run
our fb was hurt and alston our big back was also hurt; they cleaned up a lot of the missed blocks
and we only ran really well against texas, mainly bc they were pretty bad against the run
It did also seem like West Virginia looked better earlier in the season than later, but I don't follow them closely enough to know who was injured, etc.
I think if you're Kansas City, which most of this conversation centers around, you trade back into the middle to late first round and get as good a QB as you would earlier. If you take Smith or anyone else at the top of the draft you're setting yourself up to be out of a job in two years.
Here is the problem with that style of thinking. To trade down you need someone to trade down with. The O-Line is very deep this year so is the D-Line and CB positions no other position is worth trading up for except QB which as we said isn't top heavy So who exactly is going to be worth the cost in draft/player capital and in actual cap space. I'm willing to bet that the Chiefs get no offers for #1 overall unless Geno Smith just wows at the combine and pro day exercises but at this point I doubt Smith even throws at the combine.
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Here is the problem with that style of thinking. To trade down you need someone to trade down with. The O-Line is very deep this year so is the D-Line and CB positions no other position is worth trading up for except QB which as we said isn't top heavy So who exactly is going to be worth the cost in draft/player capital and in actual cap space. I'm willing to bet that the Chiefs get no offers for #1 overall unless Geno Smith just wows at the combine and pro day exercises but at this point I doubt Smith even throws at the combine.
And even if a QB did surprise at the combine and vault himself up to the top of the draft, the Chiefs would just take him.
I seriously doubt we're moving back at all. We're sticking at #1 and picking someone.
Part of the reason I looked more closely is I felt like I'd been pretty critical in some posts and wanted to make sure I was seeing it right. And I'll say this - when I was watching really critically, his athleticism and arm did stand out. I didn't take notes on very game I watched, so I watched more than two, but throughout you see a legitimate NFL arm. I just have reservations about how he'll transition to having to respond to defenses the way an NFL offense will require him to, and also when he doesn't have the luxury of wide receivers who are above the level of their competition.
Last edited by Caulibflower : 01-28-2013 at 12:20 AM.
I seriously doubt we're moving back at all. We're sticking at #1 and picking someone.
I agree, and this got me thinking... how many times has the #1 overall draft pick been traded in NFL history?
I know the Chargers traded it to the Falcons when they selected Vick and a couple of times come to mind when a player was selected by the original #1 draft pick team but was then later traded (Elway and Eli). Is that it? Not a very common occurrence.
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If Te'o fell to us, I would wet my pants. If we then passed on him, I would poop said pants.
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At your age, you'll probably poop and pee your paints on draft night regardless of whom the Saints Draft.
I agree, and this got me thinking... how many times has the #1 overall draft pick been traded in NFL history?
I know the Chargers traded it to the Falcons when they selected Vick and a couple of times come to mind when a player was selected by the original #1 draft pick team but was then later traded (Elway and Eli). Is that it? Not a very common occurrence.
The Jets did it in the '97 draft which was oddly a similar draft to this one with the value players were mostly on the O and D lines. When Peyton Manning went back to school they swapped picks with St. Louis who took Orlando Pace. Jets took James Farrior. The backstory was that Parcells had just become the Jets coach and they owed New England compensatory picks for hiring him. So it became neccessary to recoup those picks and save some money at the top. It worked out pretty well for both teams. Jets were able to quickly rebuild and became a pretty good team immediately (almost made the playoffs in 97 with Glenn Foley at QB).
This year with Fisher's stock on the rise I think Reid could maybe convince Arizona to jump from #7 if they're worried both Fisher and Joeckel will be off the board. In that scenario there's a very good chance all of the QB's are still in play especially since Glennon's and Wilson's stocks have cooled. Ultimately the Chiefs have to come away with a QB, but it's important to maximize the value of that top pick if possible.
I think if you're Kansas City, which most of this conversation centers around, you trade back into the middle to late first round and get as good a QB as you would earlier. If you take Smith or anyone else at the top of the draft you're setting yourself up to be out of a job in two years.
Nah, not in this case. The Chefs roster is not as bad as the typical team picking #1 overall. They need better QB play and Smith can give it to them. Smith isn't as good as the QBs who came out last year, but he is light years ahead of every other QB in this year's draft.
Geno Smith and Andy Reid will be golden in KC. Reid will mold that offense around what Geno can do well right now, run the ball with Charles and score points.
I think if you're Kansas City, which most of this conversation centers around, you trade back into the middle to late first round and get as good a QB as you would earlier. If you take Smith or anyone else at the top of the draft you're setting yourself up to be out of a job in two years.
You make a solid point, GM's will always take into consideration just how much failure of a pick will impact their jobs especially when there are huge doubts about a prospect and you know you are reaching to fill a need.
Past history shows that Philly under Reid was never a team that reached, so it remains quite open whether or not Reid will reach for Smith who is clearly the top QB in this year's draft but likely only a 13-18 ranked prospect.
I see zero opportunity for KC to find a trading partner unless they severely discount the #1 overall pick.
Geno Smith and Andy Reid will be golden in KC. Reid will mold that offense around what Geno can do well right now, run the ball with Charles and score points.
Unfortunately, I agree. And I am sure Reid considered this when he chose the job.
12-02-2012, 12:14 PM
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