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Old 01-30-2013, 09:44 AM    (permalink
JohnCandy
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Default Jonathan Cooper, OG, North Carolina

What do people think of Jonathan Cooper from UNC. He is an elite prospect that is being overshadowed by Chance Warmack? Is he elite in his own right?

Does he have the size to play in every system?

Can he be a full time C?

How much better is he than Warford or Fluker?
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:06 AM    (permalink
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I'm a big fan of Cooper, he is so smooth in is movements and has the ability to be the best pulling guard in the league. While he is not a mauler he plays with and edge and will play through the whistle. Can shed the first level and does a nice job of attacking linebackers in space. Technically he is sound with his footwork. Does a nice job of using his hands to establish control in pass protection and has good hips to squat against the bull rush.

As for playing center, yes I think he can learn that role, but guard is his position at the next level IMO. With the amount of teams running 3-4 defenses I'm not sure you maximize his ability matching up against zero techs.

Playing guard I don't see any schematical limitations although teams looking for a power player might have him ranked lower on the boards. I personally have him ranked as a top 20 player. I have Warford sitting in the top 40 and think he is appealing for teams looking for a guy with more girth. Fluker is a question mark for me, I was looking forward to possibly seeing him play some guard at the senior bowl. Could he be a Cordy Glenn type OT/OG combo coming into the draft or is he a product of a good system ? He is a physically impressive prospect and I will be looking forward to his combine.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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He has the best movement skills of any interior offensive linemen I've seen since Branden Albert. His ability to get the second level, or pull and work in space is something that simply comes natural to him. He looks like a guard to me, and from the way he answered some questions it seemed like he didn't mind having less responsibilities by moving back to guard. Was he overwhelmed by playing center? Does he have the football IQ to play the position? That is something I can't answer, but it's something that I have to question.

There are certain teams that are going to covet his style of play more than others. I don't think he'd be a great fit for the Steelers, but the Titans or Chiefs would have an All-Pro. His size should be a concern and he may struggle early in his career with the elite interior defensive linemen. His potential is through the roof though. Not an elite prospect in my book, but someone with special skills in space and at the second level. I like my guards to be more in the mold of Mike Iupati. Those are elite qualities (sheer size and strength mixed with solid athleticism).

Easily a first round prospect without any question. Unless there are character flaws, then I'd be surprised if he fell out of the first round. I think his lack of size and strength at the point of attack are what prevents him from being an elite guard prospect. He's more of an average player at the point.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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He has the best movement skills of any interior offensive linemen I've seen since Branden Albert. His ability to get the second level, or pull and work in space is something that simply comes natural to him. He looks like a guard to me, and from the way he answered some questions it seemed like he didn't mind having less responsibilities by moving back to guard. Was he overwhelmed by playing center? Does he have the football IQ to play the position? That is something I can't answer, but it's something that I have to question.

There are certain teams that are going to covet his style of play more than others. I don't think he'd be a great fit for the Steelers, but the Titans or Chiefs would have an All-Pro. His size should be a concern and he may struggle early in his career with the elite interior defensive linemen. His potential is through the roof though. Not an elite prospect in my book, but someone with special skills in space and at the second level. I like my guards to be more in the mold of Mike Iupati. Those are elite qualities (sheer size and strength mixed with solid athleticism).

Easily a first round prospect without any question. Unless there are character flaws, then I'd be surprised if he fell out of the first round. I think his lack of size and strength at the point of attack are what prevents him from being an elite guard prospect. He's more of an average player at the point.
I wonder if power teams will look at him as a C because that lack of pure power and strength would be not as prevelant and they could get a great player and still fit them in their system.

If you are the Bears, 49ers, Ravens and you value big powerful OLmen would you look at Fluker instead because he is a more powerrful player.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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He and Warmack are different. Warmack moves bodies around while Cooper is adept at walling off defenders and turning them. Depends on what style you prefer.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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Yup, he definitely plays a different style but does so very effectively. Even in the run game, he doesn't lose his balance and can keep the bigger, stronger DLmen at bay. I'm a big Cooper fan, I'd consider him late in the 1st for sure. And if he ends up in a ZBS, he could become a Pro Bowler
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:13 PM    (permalink
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Yup, he definitely plays a different style but does so very effectively. Even in the run game, he doesn't lose his balance and can keep the bigger, stronger DLmen at bay. I'm a big Cooper fan, I'd consider him late in the 1st for sure. And if he ends up in a ZBS, he could become a Pro Bowler
But if you are the Bears/Ravens and you use a power game with big OLmen do you take Fluker over Cooper?
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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But if you are the Bears/Ravens and you use a power game with big OLmen do you take Fluker over Cooper?
I'd take Fluker over him due to the fit and versatility as well, yes. But if say the Bears took Fluker and I was the Ravens, Cooper could still work
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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I'd take Fluker over him due to the fit and versatility as well, yes. But if say the Bears took Fluker and I was the Ravens, Cooper could still work
Is Fluker a massive reach at 20 compared to Cooper who seems to be a consensus top 20 guy/

My argument for Fluker is that there are very few human beings who can over power NFL calibre athletes. In fact there might only be 2 OLmen in the NFL [Nicks, Iupati] who go into every game being stronger than every opponent.

I know as an OT Fluker is a 2nd round pick, but is he a 1st round pick as an OG?
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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My personal preference on interior OL and OL in general is to have a surprisingly athletic mauler rather than a surprisingly stout athlete. Cooper is clearly talented but I think he will struggle, especially at first, to handle NFL interior DLmen.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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Is Fluker a massive reach at 20 compared to Cooper who seems to be a consensus top 20 guy/

My argument for Fluker is that there are very few human beings who can over power NFL calibre athletes. In fact there might only be 2 OLmen in the NFL [Nicks, Iupati] who go into every game being stronger than every opponent.

I know as an OT Fluker is a 2nd round pick, but is he a 1st round pick as an OG?
I don't think Fluker is a large reach at 20 at all, as an OG or OT. As you said, World Theory. Only so many humans who are like him. Fluker is a 1st round talent, even at RT, but it is the same argument against Cooper, positional value for a player who fits better in one system over the other (Fluker for power, Cooper for ZBS/Finese). I still contend either could play in a system not completely fit for their talents though.

Basically, if I was picking 15-20 and identified an OG or RT could really help my team over any other player I could take, I wouldn't blink to take Cooper/Warmack (assuming Warmack is gone).
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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I'd take Fluker over him due to the fit and versatility as well, yes. But if say the Bears took Fluker and I was the Ravens, Cooper could still work
Aren't the Bears transitioning to a form of west coast offense under Trestman? If so I think Cooper is a much better fit then Fluker.

As for the Ravens I think Fluker makes sense at RT and shift Osemele inside to guard.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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I look at the Bears who now have Aaron Kromer [New Orleans] who has some huge OGs that allow the pocket to be secure up the middle and Marc Trestman who wants to protect the QB and run timing routes I think that they will go OL.

Cooper is an awesome prospect, but does he fit with what Kromer is looking for and will he hold up against big powerful bull rushers?

Fluker's biggest weakness is that he struggles to redirect against SEC speed at DE. By putting him in the phone booth you eliminate that and he can just swallow up and maul DTs.

I guess me hesitation on Fluker is that most people have him ranked as a 2nd round pick or a fringe 1st rounder.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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Aren't the Bears transitioning to a form of west coast offense under Trestman? If so I think Cooper is a much better fit then Fluker.

As for the Ravens I think Fluker makes sense at RT and shift Osemele inside to guard.
Trestman is good friends with Sean Payton and actually helped him put together his play book.

Then Trestman hired Payton's OL coach Kromer.

I would expect a New Orleans style attack, which features huge OGs that physically over power people. Now maybe that is because Brees is 6' but it seems to be there MO.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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Aren't the Bears transitioning to a form of west coast offense under Trestman? If so I think Cooper is a much better fit then Fluker.

As for the Ravens I think Fluker makes sense at RT and shift Osemele inside to guard.
Osemele is already playing LG, Michael Oher is the RT.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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[quote=JohnCandy;3260301]Is Fluker a massive reach at 20 compared to Cooper who seems to be a consensus top 20 guy/

My argument for Fluker is that there are very few human beings who can over power NFL calibre athletes. In fact there might only be 2 OLmen in the NFL [Nicks, Iupati] who go into every game being stronger than every opponent.

I know as an OT Fluker is a 2nd round pick, but is he a 1st round pick as an OG?[/QUOTE]

I think that comes across as odd. I think for OT that is not widely thought to have to make the conversion to OG, they should ranked on their ability to play their primary position, and that's OT for Fluker.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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I believe Coop has played center before but naturally a guard..8 on Kipers Big Board and he really is a good athlete meaning his footwork is polished.

Edit - Now 10 on Kipers Board.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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[quote=Black Bolt;3260413]
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Is Fluker a massive reach at 20 compared to Cooper who seems to be a consensus top 20 guy/

My argument for Fluker is that there are very few human beings who can over power NFL calibre athletes. In fact there might only be 2 OLmen in the NFL [Nicks, Iupati] who go into every game being stronger than every opponent.

I know as an OT Fluker is a 2nd round pick, but is he a 1st round pick as an OG?[/QUOTE]

I think that comes across as odd. I think for OT that is not widely thought to have to make the conversion to OG, they should ranked on their ability to play their primary position, and that's OT for Fluker.
I personnaly believe he will be a better OG than OT. As an OT his biggest weakness is speed at OG his biggest weakness no longer matters as much. Therefor to me he is a higher ranked OG than he is an OT.


I guess my main question would be for a power team does Warford represent a better value in the 2nd round than Cooper, not a great scheme fit, and Fluker, positional change would in the 1st?
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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What is the difference between Warford and Cooper?
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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If you are the Bears and you are picking at 20 which option do you take?

-Draft Cooper at 20.

-Draft Fluker at 20.

-Trade down late 1st and take Warford.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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[quote=JohnCandy;3260419]
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Originally Posted by Black Bolt View Post

I personnaly believe he will be a better OG than OT. As an OT his biggest weakness is speed at OG his biggest weakness no longer matters as much. Therefor to me he is a higher ranked OG than he is an OT.


I guess my main question would be for a power team does Warford represent a better value in the 2nd round than Cooper, not a great scheme fit, and Fluker, positional change would in the 1st?
I understand what you are saying about the duel rankings, I am just saying that isn't a commonly accepted premise. For a power team, I'd say that Warford is a much better value in the second than Cooper in the first.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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What is the difference between Warford and Cooper?
Style of play. Warford is a mauler, but doesn't have that much overall athleticism. If you want to run the ball, put a man on a man, Warford is your guy. Cooper is an athletic technician. He has the strength to hold his own, but he's not going to be throwing defensive lineman around. He can move around and handle more skilled and athletic pass rushers.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Style of play. Warford is a mauler, but doesn't have that much overall athleticism. If you want to run the ball, put a man on a man, Warford is your guy. Cooper is an athletic technician. He has the strength to hold his own, but he's not going to be throwing defensive lineman around. He can move around and handle more skilled and athletic pass rushers.
What about there value?

Cooper seems to be a top 20 pick and Warford seems to be moving up.

Is Cooper that much better a prospect than Warford?
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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Rumors seem to be that Jonathan Cooper is going to be at the combine at more than 300lbs.

Is Cooper a zone blocking OG or can he play in a more power based system?
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Matt Miller ‏@nfldraftscout

#Alabama tackle D.J. Fluker won't make it past pick No. 20, per a source.
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