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Old 01-30-2013, 02:49 PM    (permalink
fenikz
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you have Alford way too low
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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CB
1. Milliner
2. Rhodes
3. Banks
4. Trufant
5. McFadden
6. Poyer

S
1. Vacarro
2. Reid
3. Elam
4. Jefferson
5. Cyprien
6. Wilcox

The more film I watch the more these will change or be confirmed, haven't watched much on the DBs yet other than just getting my initial rankings
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:14 PM    (permalink
princefielder28
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Originally Posted by fenikz View Post
you have Alford way too low
Alford measuring in under 5'10" is the greatest concern I have with him for a guy who profiles more as a man cover corner. There's no denying his physical talent and during Senior Bowl week he acclimated himself to the higher competition pretty well. My ranking of #10 on him might appear like a slight, but much like the safeties, there's several corners to get excited about and I am still a fan of his abilities.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BigBanger View Post

I really, really like him. And I can't wait to see more from him. I think he has the potential to be the best safety in this class (and in my opinion he already is. I think I see enough sheer talent to warrant that optimism). I don't look at mocks so I'm not familiar with what his draft status, but he seems to be one of the more well rounded safety I've seen (and that's comparing him to previous draft classes). The only thing that I could think of would be his speed? Maybe small school?
Cyprien isn't far off the top spot at safety for me either. I have Cyprien and Vaccaro both rated as first rounders, and in many ways they're very similar to last year's top two safeties, Barron and Smith. I had Harrison Smith as my #1 safety last season once the draft rolled around, and I see many of the same qualities in Cyprien's play. I am more confident in Vaccaro's ability to match up in coverage at this point, but I do need to go find more footage of Cyprien's play from this past season to see how well he matches up in that department.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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I question Elam's coverage ability, but my main concern with him is his style of play. He loves to just go for the hardest possible hit. Firstly, he often doesn't wrap up when this happens, which will cause more problems in the pros. But secondly and more importantly, he is going to be a flag and fine machine. Many of the hits he did at Florida simply won't be legal, and yet they seem integral to Elam's worth as a player. If a coach can get him to focus his anger and energy, I think he could be a top SS, but otherwise I think he may penalize himself out of any success.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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This is how I would rank them.

CB
1 DeMarcus Milliner Alabama JR
2 Xavier Rhodes Florida State RS JR
3 Jordan Poyer Oregon State
4 Jonathan Banks Miss State
5 Nickell Robey USC JR
6 Logan Ryan Rutgers
7 Micah Hyde Iowa
8 David Amerson NC State JR
9 Tyrann Mathieu LSU JR
10 Rashaan Melvin Northern Illinois
11 Nigel Malone Kansas State
12 Greg Reid Valdosta State
13 Terry Hawthorne Illinois
14 Desmond Trufant Washington
15 Johnny Adams Michigan State



SS
1 TJ McDonald USC
2 Tony Jefferson Oklahoma JR
3 Matt Elam Florida JR
4 Eric Reid LSU JR
5 D.J. Swearinger South Carolina
6 Shawn Williams Georgia


FS
1 Tharold Simon LSU JR
2 Bacarri Rambo Georgia
3 Kenny Vaccaro Texas
4 Robert Lester Alabama
5 Earl Wolff NC State
6 Vaugh Telemaque Miami FL
7 Rashard Hall Clemson
8 Jim Noel Boston College
9 Javon Harris Oklahoma






And on the original post:

"princefielder28 "
Cornerbacks

1. Dee Milliner : ALABAMA
2. Jordan Poyer : OREGON STATE
3. Desmond Trufant : WASHINGTON- I like him but not sure he is that elite really, more average
4. Will Davis : UTAH STATE
5. Logan Ryan : RUTGERS I agree I really like him as a player
6. Jamar Taylor : BOISE STATE
7. Xavier Rhodes : FLORIDA STATE
8. Johnthan Banks : MISSISSIPPI STATE
9. Leon McFadden : SAN DIEGO STATE
10. Robert Alford : SOUTHEASTERN LOUISIANA
11. Blidi Wreh-Wilson : UCONN
12. BW Webb : WILLIAM & MARY
13. Darius Slay : MISSISSIPPI STATE Surprised he is up this high, he was really disappointing to me all throughout his career, nothing very high level about his game
14. David Amerson : NORTH CAROLINA STATE
15. Terry Hawthorne : ILLINOIS


Safeties

1. Kenny Vaccaro : TEXAS I find him a little overrated, he is good but not sure he is as good as most say he is. The Texas defense was awful this past year in pass coverage, a lot of the Texas DBs are over rated I feel
2. Jonathan Cyprien : FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL
3. Phillip Thomas : FRESNO STATE
4. Duke Williams : NEVADA
5. Eric Reid : LOUISIANA STATE
6. Bacarri Rambo : GEORGIA
7. DJ Swearinger : SOUTH CAROLINA Regardless I think he should be higher, one could argue few strong safties played better than he did this season
8. Matt Elam : FLORIDA
9. Shawn Williams : GEORGIA
10. Tony Jefferson : OKLAHOMA Should be a 1st round pick, such a solid tackler
11. JJ Wilcox : GEORGIA SOUTHERN
12. TJ McDonald : USC I can see why he might drop, but kid has very good potential and a lot of ability, so long fast and good in the box, he should be a 1st rounder in my book
13. Cooper Taylor : RICHMOND
14. Shamarko Thomas : SYRACUSE
15. Earl Wolff : NORTH CAROLINA STATE
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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Darius Slay was the Mississippi State corner who impressed me most when I watched the Bulldogs this past season. Now I know part of it is due to opposing teams favoring attacking Slay over the heralded Banks on the other side. Slay went on to answer the call and turn in a very solid senior season. He's not far off from Banks and I feel Banks may be better off as a safety in the NFL.

Micah Hyde will have to make the transition to free safety, he's not fit to be a corner in the NFL.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:21 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
princefielder28 Darius Slay was the Mississippi State corner who impressed me most when I watched the Bulldogs this past season. Now I know part of it is due to opposing teams favoring attacking Slay over the heralded Banks on the other side. Slay went on to answer the call and turn in a very solid senior season. He's not far off from Banks and I feel Banks may be better off as a safety in the NFL.

Micah Hyde will have to make the transition to free safety, he's not fit to be a corner in the NFL.
Hyde, possibly he could move to safety but I think he has some decent ball skills for a corner and who knows maybe Seattle has started something with those tall corners and the success they have had.

I think Tharold Simon not being on your list is a sin, kid is a great defensive back and you speak of transition to free safety, he could be an absolutely elite free safety I feel but he also could play a big corner and has legit speed and coverage ability to do it at his size of 6-3.


All together guys like Simon, Banks, Rhodes, Amerson, Poyer and Melvin are all 6-2 or taller. Quite a collection of tall defensive backs and regardless of where they go they all have corner skills which would make them really fine safeties if they do make the switch.


Also, so you do not think Nickell Robey on USC is a top 15 corner, that is surprising. I think the kid has sick athletic talent, has potential as a return man and is a very aggressive corner for his size. I would take him in the late 2nd or early 3rd or at the latest in the 4th round. If he runs like he should in the 40, I would not be surprised to see that happen.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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I see a lot of Javier Arenas in Robey's game and that profiles as a nickel corner in the NFL. I'm not saying that's bad given how often nickel packages are on the field currently, but I'm gonna roll the dice on a guy who may potentially be a #1 or #2 guy over a situational player/special teamer. Robey is worth a 4th round selection.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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Agreeing with PF28, my main concern with Robey is size. I think he's a quality player and has a fair shot at playing well in the pros, but I simply can't see him ever matching up with the number ones in the league. Other guys may ultimately not end up better than him, but at the same time they do have the potential to be number one corners. Still, if it were in the fourth or later I wouldn't mind.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:47 PM    (permalink
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I see a lot of Javier Arenas in Robey's game and that profiles as a nickel corner in the NFL. I'm not saying that's bad given how often nickel packages are on the field currently, but I'm gonna roll the dice on a guy who may potentially be a #1 or #2 guy over a situational player/special teamer. Robey is worth a 4th round selection.
Very true, but it depends on how much value one puts in high, I would rather have toughness, fight and aggressiveness in a corner instead of size. Sure size is great but a guy like Arenas, loved him at Alabama and love his game so far in the NFL. He fights, attacks despite his size and is a decent tackler, Robey is not that tough though but has good ball skills, if he was tougher I would like him more, but his coverage is very solid. Same can be said for Captain Munnerlyn, when he came out I was like what the ****, a 7th round pick? I thought of him as easily one of the best cover corners in the draft, oh but he is "short". So what kid can play and he has proven that in the NFL.


With that being said, as prospects I would take Arenas from Alabama and Munnerlyn from South Carolina over Robey on USC. And again comes down to his lack of toughness at times, but athletically he is arguably more talented than both Arenas and Munnerlyn but might not have the fight they have.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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Logan Ryan ends up as top 3 corner in the NFL from this group. I guarantee it. He has an all around game and is one of the best tackling CB's you'll ever see.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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Ryan is a good player, not sure he is that of an elite tackler though, good great? Not sure on that...
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by princefielder28 View Post
Darius Slay was the Mississippi State corner who impressed me most when I watched the Bulldogs this past season. Now I know part of it is due to opposing teams favoring attacking Slay over the heralded Banks on the other side. Slay went on to answer the call and turn in a very solid senior season. He's not far off from Banks and I feel Banks may be better off as a safety in the NFL.

Micah Hyde will have to make the transition to free safety, he's not fit to be a corner in the NFL.
Hyde tried safety at Iowa and was not very good at it. I'm not sure if it was just not enough time to adjust or coaching, but playing safety at Iowa is pretty basic. Hyde seems to fit the mold of most recent Iowa CBs that had to transition to safety in the NFL, but it kind of worries me that he was really bad when he played there last year.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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The statement on Hawthorne tends to make me think you haven't watched many Illini games...because you couldn't be more wrong. BTW he is the best QB in the class (And Buchanan is the best DE with Carradine).
Hey, thaKid! I miss the entertainment of your posts on scout, so I'm glad you've made your way back here. Hopefully you'll still be here once the season starts in the fall.

As for Hawthorne/Illinois go, I've watched probably all but 3-4 games in the last 3 years. Like I said, Hawthorne has the build and shown flashes of talent to be a really good corner, but he has never played with consistency or been on the field long enough to prove it. And while he has a few highlight type plays, he really hasn't shown any consistent game changing ability and isn't really thought of as a lock-down corner. I know you are going to argue that point, but he was beat by top WRs more than he shut them down in his career.

He might have a chance to sneak in round 1 because of his physical attributes come combine time, but then again you also were touting him as a #1 overall pick back in the fall so...
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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ive never seen safety rankings so all over the place. the safeties this year are tough to grade and rank
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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Ryan is a good player, not sure he is that of an elite tackler though, good great? Not sure on that...
He is an elite tackling CB I promise. Great in open space and always brings his man down. It's going to make a team very happy.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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1. Xavier Rhodes
2. Jordan Poyer
3. Leon McFadden
4. Robert Alford
5. Dee Milliner
6. Johnthan Banks
7. B.W. Webb
8. Logan Ryan
9. Dez Trufant
10. Tyrann Mathieu
11. Nickell Robey
12. Blidi Wreh-Wilson

I still need to get around to watching Slay, Jamar Taylor, Amerson, Simon, and Robey, but that's how I've got them so far.
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Tannehill was a better QB (than Gabbert) when he was still playing WR

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:50 PM    (permalink
Giantsfan1080
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Ryan 8th? How come YFS?
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080 View Post
Ryan 8th? How come YFS?
He has nice press-man potential, but I worry about tight hips with him, Trufant, and Mathieu. All of those guys consistently get turned and opened. But I do love his physicality, how he plays with reckless abandon and sacrifices his body.

I will say that I'm a major stickler on technique for CBs, because I've never played/coached DBs so it's tougher for me to project what is/isn't coachable from a raw skill standpoint than other positions.
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Tannehill was a better QB (than Gabbert) when he was still playing WR
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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DJ Hayden would be a top 10 corner easily if not for his freak accident. If he returns 100% to football someone is going to get an absolute steal on him.
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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Hey, thaKid! I miss the entertainment of your posts on scout, so I'm glad you've made your way back here. Hopefully you'll still be here once the season starts in the fall.

As for Hawthorne/Illinois go, I've watched probably all but 3-4 games in the last 3 years. Like I said, Hawthorne has the build and shown flashes of talent to be a really good corner, but he has never played with consistency or been on the field long enough to prove it. And while he has a few highlight type plays, he really hasn't shown any consistent game changing ability and isn't really thought of as a lock-down corner. I know you are going to argue that point, but he was beat by top WRs more than he shut them down in his career.

He might have a chance to sneak in round 1 because of his physical attributes come combine time, but then again you also were touting him as a #1 overall pick back in the fall so...

Well maybe you have but I'm not sure we watch the same games. Hawthorne locks down his man/side of the field consistently. I would bet more than in CB not only in this draft, but a few drafts. He doesn't get to flash his tremendous playmaking ability as much because he's rarely targeted. He still manages to make a few game altering and/or a few potentially game altering plays a game, all within the scheme of the defense he's playing. As for #1, I'm not sure he goes there, but that's not because of talent. He has always been underrated dating back to HS, but he always been a playmaker of the highest level. IMO there wasn't a player better then, and there isn't a player better now.


Also curious who he has been beaten by (As well as the "not been on the field long enough comment"). Literally the ONLY guy who had consistent success manned against Hawthorne other than his freshman year (Where he was still making plays/locking guys down despite it being his first year playing the position), was Quinton Patton and I made my thoughts known on him (Plus I believe a couple of those plays were blown coverages). The list he has locked down? Russell Wilson/Nick Toon, Griffin III/Kendall Wright, Cousins/Cunningham, Osweiller/Robinson, etc. etc. Like I was saying when Corey Liuget, etc. came out, sooner or later people are going to be forced to stop underrating Illini players.

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Old 02-03-2013, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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I think your going to see a run of bigger corners in this years draft. I see that really helping Banks, Amerson and Rhodes. All three guys are good athletes who can play the run and pass.
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Kenny Vaccaro is a hard one to rank in this class. He has been around for awhile, been hyped up forever but never really has. What was is last years draft Markelle Martin, preseason everyone had him 1st round potential, such a stud safety and then he drops like a rock in the draft? Not sure that will happen with Vaccaro but it will happen to one of the safeties in this draft.


And to me safety is by far the hardest position to pick good players, constantly you see fine college players do almost nothing in the NFL at that position.


Brought this list up last season and seems relevant in this discussion. Just a few I thought of when looking back at safeties I had highly ranked or rated and in the NFL they have not accomplished must or did not even make it at all. With Kenny Vaccaro I do not think he is awful, very good hitter, really impressive hitter half the time but his coverage is a little overrated and sadly there are more than a few big hitting safeties in college that do not turn out in the NFL.

Vaccaro should be ok though, decent player but not sure he is worth a top 15 selection which I heard a few people talk of. I do not put him on the level of some of the best safeties to ever come out in the draft at all. Good talent but we will see how he works out, a lot of mixed opinions on him. But I think if he is so good, why has Texas been so bad on defense for the past few seasons? His impact does have little impact on the end result of the game which is not good, and seems his best plays are against the worst competition and not in the big games. Will see what happens with him and the other safeties in this draft.


Tramain Thomas- before he came out he was awesome on Arkansas his senior season, good coverage safety but went undrafted.

Deunta Williams- I assume it is an injury issue, but the kid was an absolute stud on UNC

Tejay Johnson- Good fast safety, do not believe he has a look as a free agent even.

DeAndre McDaniel- Undrafted, signed with Saints for a chance, crazy because year before he was lights out and is one of the more aggressive and consistent playmaking safeties in the country.

Justin Woodall- Few years ago, fine big safety for Bama, undrafted and never given a chance to play.

Taylor Mays- Still in the league but is not getting the time he should be getting, though some called him out even in college as a possible bust, still has a chance though.

Demetrice Morley- Legal issues kept him out probably, but still he could play and was very very talented.

Derek Pegues- Quick and fast safety, good return guy, made big plays, never given a chance as a free agent.

Michael Hamlin- Still around the league but is not playing much, was really elite and very good in college, not the same in the NFL.

Otis Wiley- Interception machine in his senior year, very productive, big kid, made plays, was undrafted and got a shot but not sure he is even around anymore.

Dominic Jones- Big time prospect, legal issues kept him out and being kicked off the team. Still a fast player and a great tackler, never made it.

Emanuel Cook- Still in the league but not doing so well, fine tackler in college but must have some character or work ethic issues.

Jamie Silva- Actually went undrafted, but has been kind of a productive pro but was odd he went undrafted.

Kelin Johnson- On rosters but does not play, was a very good safety with a lot of potential and size.

Jamar Adams- Bounces around, big kid but never really sticking on any roster.

Pig Brown- Good hitter, tough guy, undrafted I believe.

Eric Brock- Good player, undrafted but made a roster and is hanging around the league, not playing much.

Nehemiah Warrick- Good athlete, decent prospect, bounces around the league but no real playing time.

Tom Zibikowski- Is productive in the league some what, on the Ravens, but is not the star he showed in college.

Dajuan Morgan- Still in the league but has never broken out, close to the best safety in college at NC State but never has had that success in the league.

Reggie Smith- Really has not done much, still on the 49ers I believe, but never the star he was in college at all.

Simeon Castille- Great tackler on Alabama, good player, played with great effort, but bounces around the league and plays little.

Kevin Mitchell- Big time safety on Illinois, undrafted and never really got a shot I believe, surprise because he was a fine safety.

Brandon Everage- Good coverage guy, a lot of hype in college but undrafted I believe.

Ernest Shazor- Really big surprise, super prospect, huge kid, hit hard but went undrafted then bounced around the league for a really short time and done.

Jamaal Brimmer- Extremely productive in college, undrafted and never made the league despite showing a lot of talent, but did have an awful 40 time.

Junior Rosegreen- Good athlete, tough, plays aggressive, never stuck around the league, I was surprised.

Jaxson Appel- Loved his tackling ability on A&M, was in the league for a little I feel but never got real playing time.

Matt Grootegoed- Star in college, never stuck on a roster or played much at all in the NFL.

Darnell Bing- Star safety prospect, huge kid, but was moved to linebacker I believe, never really stuck on a roster or played much real time.

Guss Scott- Good tackler, small but productive and never really stuck round the league that long.

Dakarai Pearson- Good athlete, good in deep coverage, never got a chance in the league for long I believe.

Greg Blue- Huge hitting, like big time hitter in college, but got drafted and on a roster but was soon let go and never stuck on anywhere else for long, was a surprise.

Dwayne Slay- Big kid, good hitter, undrafted and got signed later but did not stick around long.

Jamaal Fudge- Really liked him, he actually went undrafted but then got a shot on a team and did well but did not stick around for more than a few seasons.

Ko Simpson- Absolute star in college, really hyped up and a very good athlete, got on a roster and was drafted but never turned out at all.

Gary Berry- Super star on Ohio State, very good player and very productive, but never really played well in the league, was drafted but did not stick around long.

Robert Carswell- Barely got drafted, was a star on Clemson but did not stick around in the NFL long, but did have an awful 40.
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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Well maybe you have but I'm not sure we watch the same games. Hawthorne locks down his man/side of the field consistently. I would bet more than in CB not only in this draft, but a few drafts. He doesn't get to flash his tremendous playmaking ability as much because he's rarely targeted. He still manages to make a few game altering and/or a few potentially game altering plays a game, all within the scheme of the defense he's playing. As for #1, I'm not sure he goes there, but that's not because of talent. He has always been underrated dating back to HS, but he always been a playmaker of the highest level. IMO there wasn't a player better then, and there isn't a player better now.


Also curious who he has been beaten by (As well as the "not been on the field long enough comment"). Literally the ONLY guy who had consistent success manned against Hawthorne other than his freshman year (Where he was still making plays/locking guys down despite it being his first year playing the position), was Quinton Patton and I made my thoughts known on him (Plus I believe a couple of those plays were blown coverages). The list he has locked down? Russell Wilson/Nick Toon, Griffin III/Kendall Wright, Cousins/Cunningham, Osweiller/Robinson, etc. etc. Like I was saying when Corey Liuget, etc. came out, sooner or later people are going to be forced to stop underrating Illini players.
Oh boy, let's take this one point at a time.

First, let's look at the list he locked down...

Wilson/Toon (2011) - 6 receptions, 67 yards, no TDs - solid effort, hardly locked down.
RGIII/Wright (2010) - 12 receptions, 127 yards, 1 TD - ya, no lock down.
Cousins/Cunningham (2010) - 3 receptions, 83 yards, 1 TD - nope.
Osweiller/Robinson (2011) - 8 receptions, 88 yards, 1 TD - again, solid but not "locked down".

So some decent efforts there, but hardly locking down anyone. And in each of those games, the WR listed is the #1 WR so Hawthorne should have been covering him at least 80% of the time. In addition to that, let's look at his performance against some other "top" WRs:

Carder/White (WMU - 2011) - 14 receptions, 132 yards, 1 TD
Persa/Ebert (NW - 2011) - 5 receptions, 76 yards, 3 TD
Denard/Roundtree (Mich - 2010) - 9 receptions, 246 yards, 2 TD
OR
Denard/Hemingway (Mich - 2010) - 6 receptions, 104 yards, 2 TD

Since those were his soph and junior years, let's look at really the only 3 top-tier WRs he faced his Senior year:

Patton (LaTech) - 6 receptions, 164 yards, 2 TD
Robinson (PSU) - 3 receptions, 35 yards
Abbrederis (Wisc) - 7 receptions, 117 yards, 1 TD

So he did a great job on Robinson, the other 2 not so much. And in the NFL, he will face guys like Patton and Abbrederis on a regular basis, albeit with better help. But I highly doubt the majority of these games were due to blown coverages.

So again, where are these top WRs he's "locked down" on a regular basis?

Second, do you honestly think the Hawthorne can be the best Safety in the NFL after having a career as the best CB in the NFL, at this point in time? Really? Coming from the guy who also said Martez Wilson was a first rounder and is better than Von Miller? Or that Rejus Benn is going to be one of the best WRs in the NFL?
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