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Old 02-03-2013, 03:16 PM    (permalink
hockey619
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Originally Posted by Brothgar View Post
On that note I'm not a big fan of this new "arm talent" meme that seems to be going around these days. It vastly oversimplifies what you are looking for in a QB's throwing ability.
what i mean by arm talent is he gets the ball from A to B and that nothing looks mechanically wrong with his upper body and the ball itself.

Its his lower body/ability to work his reads that i really question. He panics sometimes and his footwork is inconsistent. That is fixable. Harder to do is teaching him to move between reads quickly and read a defense.
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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http://secondroundstats.com/2013/02/...ics-breakdown/

Here's a good breakdown of each of the 4 QB's. I think it can give a different prespective.

BTW, I am an ACC homer but I do believe Glennon's the top QB in this class. I don't think he's anywhere close to Luck but I do think he'll end up as a top ten pick and will be the best QB in this class. I think he's a combination of Flacco and Matt Ryan and with some good work will be a solid NFL starter.
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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I don't see anything in Glennon that makes me think he'll be successful. I don't know what it is about him, but I just don't see what others see.
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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I don't see anything in Glennon that makes me think he'll be successful. I don't know what it is about him, but I just don't see what others see.
There's not a considerable amount of "proven talent" with the quarterback class, and after that you turn to workable skill sets and Glennon possesses size and a strong arm. Ceiling could be a Joe Flacco type while he's probably more likely to be a Derek Anderson type.
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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Glennon may have the tools, but he also has Blaine Gabbert syndrome. Watch the games. When the pressure is on, he gets nervous and scared in the pocket and even goes into the fetal position.

That's not coachable.
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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Glennon may have the tools, but he also has Blaine Gabbert syndrome. Watch the games. When the pressure is on, he gets nervous and scared in the pocket and even goes into the fetal position.

That's not coachable.
I'm not someone who's in Glennon's corner. i was just explaining why there is fascination with him amongst NFL teams. He doesn't have the greatest pocket presence and he deservedly gets knocked for it. Geno Smith struggles with pressure in his face as well while Tyler Wilson is one of the few in this draft who is fearless when it comes to standing in the pocket even though he knows he might get smacked.
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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I don't see anything in Glennon that makes me think he'll be successful. I don't know what it is about him, but I just don't see what others see.
He has physical tools+, size+, character+. Someone is going to think that can be converted into an elite QB.

He definitely has things to work on, though. I don't think he's a guy you expect to start week 1 or even year 1, but on the positive for him - no one in this class is.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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He has physical tools+, size+, character+. Someone is going to think that can be converted into an elite QB.

He definitely has things to work on, though. I don't think he's a guy you expect to start week 1 or even year 1, but on the positive for him - no one in this class is.
Elite?? Wow.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:13 PM    (permalink
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Elite?? Wow.
Whether you Glennon fan or not, how you can argue that the guy doesn't have a high ceiling? Nobody in this draft his his frame and arm.

Hell, he has a better arm than Luck. Now he's not as athletic, mobile or as accurrate.

I can understand the Gabbert comparsions but I disagree with them. He was hit a lot at NC State and I don't think he missed a snap in two years. He stood in a made some good throws despite pressure. That being said - there were times where pressure was a huge issue for him.

I never thought NC State ran a QB-friendly offense. They pretty much stood on Glennon's back and depended on him to make plays. That's not as easy thing to do espically if you are a one-dimensional QB. Russell Wilson and Matt Ryan both played in that same offense and put up similar numbers including high INT's.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:30 PM    (permalink
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Whether you Glennon fan or not, how you can argue that the guy doesn't have a high ceiling? Nobody in this draft his his frame and arm.

Hell, he has a better arm than Luck. Now he's not as athletic, mobile or as accurrate.

I can understand the Gabbert comparsions but I disagree with them. He was hit a lot at NC State and I don't think he missed a snap in two years. He stood in a made some good throws despite pressure. That being said - there were times where pressure was a huge issue for him.

I never thought NC State ran a QB-friendly offense. They pretty much stood on Glennon's back and depended on him to make plays. That's not as easy thing to do espically if you are a one-dimensional QB. Russell Wilson and Matt Ryan both played in that same offense and put up similar numbers including high INT's.
Nice post about Glennon. He also had no real talent at the offensive skill positions to help him out. Smith on the other hand has two very good WRs and played in a QB friendly system that has historically had anyone who played in the system put up gaudy stats. That won't stop most on this board for automatically thinking he is the best prospect - can't wait for KC to draft him and hear all the the Chief fans complain when he doesn't plan out.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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Whether you Glennon fan or not, how you can argue that the guy doesn't have a high ceiling? Nobody in this draft his his frame and arm.

Hell, he has a better arm than Luck. Now he's not as athletic, mobile or as accurrate.

I can understand the Gabbert comparsions but I disagree with them. He was hit a lot at NC State and I don't think he missed a snap in two years. He stood in a made some good throws despite pressure. That being said - there were times where pressure was a huge issue for him.

I never thought NC State ran a QB-friendly offense. They pretty much stood on Glennon's back and depended on him to make plays. That's not as easy thing to do espically if you are a one-dimensional QB. Russell Wilson and Matt Ryan both played in that same offense and put up similar numbers including high INT's.
I think his ceiling is that of a poor man's Kerry Collins, and that's after he develops a grown man's body.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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I think his ceiling is that of a poor man's Kerry Collins, and that's after he develops a grown man's body.
Glennon's had no zero off the field issues and considered a high character guy.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:48 PM    (permalink
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I think his ceiling is that of a poor man's Kerry Collins, and that's after he develops a grown man's body.
He is fine body wise - took plenty of hits in college. Flacco just winning the super bowl is going to help Glennon's cause.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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He is fine body wise - took plenty of hits in college. Flacco just winning the super bowl is going to help Glennon's cause.
No, no it won't.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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Personally I think Nassib's the second best QB in this class. Kind of a rich man's Chad Henne.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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Personally I think Nassib's the second best QB in this class. Kind of a rich man's Chad Henne.
That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.
In this year's QB class it is. As sad as that may be it is a huge endorsement that is why I'm right with you (among other reasons) for the Chiefs taking Smith #1 over all.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:40 PM    (permalink
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Glennon's had no zero off the field issues and considered a high character guy.
I'm comparing skills.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:43 PM    (permalink
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He is fine body wise - took plenty of hits in college. Flacco just winning the super bowl is going to help Glennon's cause.
LOL, WHAT?
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:57 AM    (permalink
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He is fine body wise - took plenty of hits in college. Flacco just winning the super bowl is going to help Glennon's cause.
I saw this in PFW's Insiders column a couple of weeks back and thought of it after an old school pocket passer beat a "new wave" mobile guy last night:

ďA lot of good coaches have dropped down to college and are not coming back. I donít think Nick Saban will ever return (to the NFL). Itís not just the big names. There are a lot of good, veteran assistants too. The resources are better. Theyíre building their own networks. The players are more open to coaching. When a lot of teams took away (the coachesí) NFL pensions, college became a lot more attractive. I hear it all the time. Thereís a reason the quality of play has fallen in the NFL. Iím watching some of the coaching going on, and Iím just amazed how bad it is. This dive-option crap should not be working the way it is. Itís easy to stop. This league is all cyclical. (A Hall of Fame coach) once told me ó remember what you are seeing now, because it will all come back. This stuff was around 20 years ago, and it got shut down. Itís only a matter of time before it happens again. Ö The NFL is and always will be a pocket-passing league. If you want to win, you better have a quarterback who can do it

So, for some this will only reaffirm the above sentiment. But certainly the zone-read will be the number 1 priority for DC's to work out how to stop during this off season. If I was an NFL team, I'd be paying Stanford's coaches to come in for a couple of days to break down the game film and highlight how they stopped them.

As for this QB class - just watch the eyes. Geno Smith - too long on his primary receiver before moving to 2 - if that's not there he runs. Glennon - gets through 3 or 4 options routinely - you give him time in the pocket he'll kill you. North Carolina game a good example. Now, when NC got fed up with him picking them apart, late in the game they blitzed and he then completed about 1 pass. So he's not the finished article, but he's the closest thing to being an NFL pocket passer in this class.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:42 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by duesouth View Post
I saw this in PFW's Insiders column a couple of weeks back and thought of it after an old school pocket passer beat a "new wave" mobile guy last night:

ďA lot of good coaches have dropped down to college and are not coming back. I donít think Nick Saban will ever return (to the NFL). Itís not just the big names. There are a lot of good, veteran assistants too. The resources are better. Theyíre building their own networks. The players are more open to coaching. When a lot of teams took away (the coachesí) NFL pensions, college became a lot more attractive. I hear it all the time. Thereís a reason the quality of play has fallen in the NFL. Iím watching some of the coaching going on, and Iím just amazed how bad it is. This dive-option crap should not be working the way it is. Itís easy to stop. This league is all cyclical. (A Hall of Fame coach) once told me ó remember what you are seeing now, because it will all come back. This stuff was around 20 years ago, and it got shut down. Itís only a matter of time before it happens again. Ö The NFL is and always will be a pocket-passing league. If you want to win, you better have a quarterback who can do it

So, for some this will only reaffirm the above sentiment. But certainly the zone-read will be the number 1 priority for DC's to work out how to stop during this off season. If I was an NFL team, I'd be paying Stanford's coaches to come in for a couple of days to break down the game film and highlight how they stopped them.

As for this QB class - just watch the eyes. Geno Smith - too long on his primary receiver before moving to 2 - if that's not there he runs. Glennon - gets through 3 or 4 options routinely - you give him time in the pocket he'll kill you. North Carolina game a good example. Now, when NC got fed up with him picking them apart, late in the game they blitzed and he then completed about 1 pass. So he's not the finished article, but he's the closest thing to being an NFL pocket passer in this class.
This is a hilarious post. Geno Smith had a whopping ten more rushing attempts than Glennon last year. Secondly, Smith completely 71.2% of his passes. So he must have hit his first read at an incredibly high % for your statement to have any truth to it whatsoever, and still, hitting you first read at a super high rate is not a bad thing. But what you said isn't true, he does go through progressions and executes better than Glennon is every conceivable way. I'm sure you have a ready made explanation as to why Glennon throw so many more picks than Smith.

"The NFL is and always will be a pocket-passing league. If you want to win, you better have a quarterback who can do it."

You pass out of the pocket from the pistol formation as well, so I don't know what the point of this statement is. No one is making the zone read their PRIMARY offense, it's just part of the arsenal for teams with QBs who can run it.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:02 AM    (permalink
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Pretty sure that article up there lays out why Glennon doesn't look as good as some other QBs to the naked eye. He played in an idiotic offense for college that forces QBs to make throws some NFL teams don't ask their players to make. Average pass in the air for 9+ yards when Luck was an NFL outlier this year with 8 iirc and Geno is throwing it 4.5? Just dumb, and a big reason that coaching staff got fired. That staff has had NFL QB after NFL QB (they had the Hasselbecks at BC before Ryan) and while you can argue the offense helps develop the QBs for the league, it is moronic to run at the college level if you want to win games. I don't think it's coincidental how well Ryan did at BC and Wilson did at Wisconsin once they escaped that dumb offense - both won more games in that year than the Tom OBrien/Dana Bible combo ever did in a season.

Now, if you want to evaluate solely on the eye test I do agree Glennon is missing something. But end of the day he has the huge arm you're looking for and we're just coming off a Super Bowl where both QBs were tools picks that had to be developed. I also don't agree with the Gabbert comp. Glennon struggles under pressure but it's the standard blinkered, immobile QB struggle - not Gabbert and his panicky run away from his own shadow stuff. Also, fwiw, Glennon has had big moments in tight games.

That page of stats really accentuated a few of my thoughts. The QB it changed my opinion of the most is probably Tyler Wilson. This year, and in the Senior Bowl especially, I was surprised by how weak his arm was. In past years I thought it was fine so maybe the injury is part of it? I don't know, I can only rely on the info I have now and I wouldn't pick the guy who has shown up in the last year as my franchise QB.

My list now:

1. Geno
2. Glennon (the gap has closed between these two considerably. still would need something big for Mike to overtake him, tho)
3. Barkley
--- starter cut off
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by marks01234 View Post
http://secondroundstats.com/2013/02/...ics-breakdown/

Here's a good breakdown of each of the 4 QB's. I think it can give a different prespective.

BTW, I am an ACC homer but I do believe Glennon's the top QB in this class. I don't think he's anywhere close to Luck but I do think he'll end up as a top ten pick and will be the best QB in this class. I think he's a combination of Flacco and Matt Ryan and with some good work will be a solid NFL starter.
Interesting article. The author also tweeted "Don't know what to make of Nassib. Great 20+ yard, deep completion percentage (62.5%) but only 50% completion rate on 3rd down."
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
Pretty sure that article up there lays out why Glennon doesn't look as good as some other QBs to the naked eye. He played in an idiotic offense for college that forces QBs to make throws some NFL teams don't ask their players to make. Average pass in the air for 9+ yards when Luck was an NFL outlier this year with 8 iirc and Geno is throwing it 4.5? Just dumb, and a big reason that coaching staff got fired. That staff has had NFL QB after NFL QB (they had the Hasselbecks at BC before Ryan) and while you can argue the offense helps develop the QBs for the league, it is moronic to run at the college level if you want to win games. I don't think it's coincidental how well Ryan did at BC and Wilson did at Wisconsin once they escaped that dumb offense - both won more games in that year than the Tom OBrien/Dana Bible combo ever did in a season.

Now, if you want to evaluate solely on the eye test I do agree Glennon is missing something. But end of the day he has the huge arm you're looking for and we're just coming off a Super Bowl where both QBs were tools picks that had to be developed. I also don't agree with the Gabbert comp. Glennon struggles under pressure but it's the standard blinkered, immobile QB struggle - not Gabbert and his panicky run away from his own shadow stuff. Also, fwiw, Glennon has had big moments in tight games.

That page of stats really accentuated a few of my thoughts. The QB it changed my opinion of the most is probably Tyler Wilson. This year, and in the Senior Bowl especially, I was surprised by how weak his arm was. In past years I thought it was fine so maybe the injury is part of it? I don't know, I can only rely on the info I have now and I wouldn't pick the guy who has shown up in the last year as my franchise QB.

My list now:

1. Geno
2. Glennon (the gap has closed between these two considerably. still would need something big for Mike to overtake him, tho)
3. Barkley
--- starter cut off

Well, looks like you have researched Glennon's situation well. But I can't help but remember the similar argument made for Jake Locker two years ago.

Also, as far as your stance on Matt Ryan being held back by the offensive system, the lack of TALENT around him at BC superceded the shortcomings of the offense. Try to name another skill player on that offense. Matt Ryan performed incredibly with that derth of talent, unlike Locker.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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[quote=duesouth;3264954]

ďA lot of good coaches have dropped down to college and are not coming back. I donít think Nick Saban will ever return (to the NFL). Itís not just the big names. There are a lot of good, veteran assistants too. The resources are better. Theyíre building their own networks. The players are more open to coaching. When a lot of teams took away (the coachesí) NFL pensions, college became a lot more attractive. I hear it all the time. Thereís a reason the quality of play has fallen in the NFL. Iím watching some of the coaching going on, and Iím just amazed how bad it is. This dive-option crap should not be working the way it is. Itís easy to stop. This league is all cyclical. (A Hall of Fame coach) once told me ó remember what you are seeing now, because it will all come back. This stuff was around 20 years ago, and it got shut down. Itís only a matter of time before it happens again. Ö The NFL is and always will be a pocket-passing league. If you want to win, you better have a quarterback who can do it

The real reason why so many coaches prefer the college game and will never leave it is 'money'. College HC's if they are good, can make as much money as a pro HC. The colleges make millions from TV and pay their players peanuts leaving all the money to pay their coaching staffs. Coaches, like Saban, would be gone in a minute if the pay wasn't so good.
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