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Old 02-07-2013, 07:46 AM    (permalink
Rosebud
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hey, i've been with you on the DE bandwagon. However, DT and if we cut Webster, CB, may go ahead of it, if we move Kiwi full time to DE (which we freaking should)
We need a DT and a corner, but we also need a DE. At DT we don't need a stud because of how use our ends on passing downs. We can sign a cheap vet and be fine. At DE we do need a stud though cause we've got just solid guys. That's why I want a DE and a corner more than anything else, we need a solid DT and guard to, but those are guys we don't need to spend a premium pick on or a star at.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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We will soon know our needs.

DT is clearly a need as it stands today

OL is a likely need as well at this point.

If we cut Diehl or move him to a back up role,then we only have 40% of our starting offensive line under contract. You could up that to 60% if you count the unproven Brewer at RT.

Once free agency hits, there are a lot of possibilities, but there is a very real chance that both Beatty and Boothe attract sizeable deals (there are quite a few teams with ALOT of cap room).
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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We need a DT and a corner, but we also need a DE. At DT we don't need a stud because of how use our ends on passing downs. We can sign a cheap vet and be fine. At DE we do need a stud though cause we've got just solid guys. That's why I want a DE and a corner more than anything else, we need a solid DT and guard to, but those are guys we don't need to spend a premium pick on or a star at.
DE is a position I would like to upgrade (like many others), but at this point it isn't a need.

We have Tuck, Pierre-Paul, Kiwanuka, Tracy, Ojomo and Trattou; that is sufficient to get by, particularly if Tuck rebounds.

With that said I really want us to get Ansah to develop at LDE; it seems an ideal fit for us. I would be ok trading up for him if the price was reasonable.
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:46 PM    (permalink
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I have been going back and forth on this, and I am reserving my opinion until after the combine, but IF we were to go with a LB in the first round, the only LB I really want is Teo (assuming he performs well at the combine).

Teo was overhyped previously, and really I think people are now going too far the other way with all this drama of late. Scouts have 4 years of scouting on him and he has performed well. Sure stuff needs to be checked out again, but I suspect he will still be fine.
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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I don't want Teó. Too many potential distractions with him. I don't want a circus on our team.

Even if he's there in the 4th round, I'm not drafting him. There's just too much baggage for him to be worth it. Never really liked him all that much anyway. He's no Luke Keuchly that's for sure.
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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A lot of people had Kuechly in the same kind of speed/athleticsim range before the combine that Teo is right now.

I want to wait and see how Teo performs at the combine until I decide either way. I actually think the Giants would actually be a good fit for Teo. I believe he has the attitude and work ethic to turn things around; but we will see.

with Ansah, Johnson, Fisher, Warmack etc all likely gone well before we pick, I am looking at potential options, there are a few ways we could go to fill our needs.
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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He doesn't have the instincts, tackling ability or fluidity in coverage that Luke had. He's just not as good as Luke, period. Luke was better in every way, forget the combine. He was just better.

If we go LB in round 1, Oggletree would intrigue me as someone we can throw at SAM and play WILL in our nickel while we move JWill to SAM to cover the TE.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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He doesn't have the instincts, tackling ability or fluidity in coverage that Luke had. He's just not as good as Luke, period. Luke was better in every way, forget the combine. He was just better.

If we go LB in round 1, Oggletree would intrigue me as someone we can throw at SAM and play WILL in our nickel while we move JWill to SAM to cover the TE.
Ogeltree is too inconsistent to me.

I want to see how Teo tests in the workouts, but assuming he tests ok, I think he is a good fit.

I think part of the problem is how Notre Dame used Teo. Earlier in his college career he did shed tackles pretty well and was instinctive. This year they have moved him deeper, which isn't a great fit for him imho

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Old 02-08-2013, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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Ogeltree is too inconsistent to me.

I want to see how Teo tests in the workouts, but assuming he tests ok, I think he is a good fit.

I think part of the problem is how Notre Dame used Teo. Earlier in his college career he did shed tackles pretty well and was instinctive. This year they have moved him deeper, which isn't a great fit for him imho
If moving deeper wasn't a strength of his, how does he make sense for us? Bc our MIKE is playing the deep middle in Tampa 2 coverage often.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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I'm looking at some of the DTs in this class now. I'm telling you, either one of Sharrif Floyd and Sheldon Richardson would be perfect for us next to Joseph. They are perfect 3-techs in the 4-3. I would not mind it at all if we drafted either one of them in the first. Unfortunately they are projected to go in the top 15.

I like how this draft is shaping up in the positions we have needs in. We generally in my mind need OL,DL and CB the most. LBs are also a need, but I am in the camp that wants us to wait until the mid/late rounds to get them. And we have some young talent on that position on the roster as well.

But looking at this class briefly, there are a lot of guys I would love to draft round one:

Chance Warmack
Ziggy Ansah
Eric Fisher
Lane Johnson
Sharrif Floyd
Sheldon Richardson
Jarvis Jones
Desmond Trufant
Bjoern Werner
Dion Jordan

Those are ten good players I would love for us to draft. Some more than others, but I wouldn't mind any of them in the first. If you add to that list the players pretty much guaranteed to go top 15, you can see we will get a good player at 19:

Luke Joeckel
Damontre Moore
2 QBs (because NFL teams are desperate)
Star Lotulelei
Demarcus Milliner

And probably Mingo, Vaccaro and Johnthan Banks.

And in addition to those guys, there's always one or two surprises, so I think we're set up pretty good. If one of the guys from the second list for some reason becomes available, I wouldn't mind drafting one of those either obviously (except for the QBs of course).
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Alright guys, so I got through the first half of the Senior Bowl, and I'm strictly looking at the DL on both sides. I want to watch the Senior Bowl in its entirety and watch the DL, then the OL, then the LB core and form my evaluations.

But so far through the first half of watching the DL, this is my take:

Ziggy Ansah goes without saying. He's a beast and I would love to have him in the first if he's there.

3 other guys really stood out to me:

#97 From Penn State: Jordan Hill
-Hill is on the small side. He's 6 1" 300 lbs with 32" arms. But he was all over the field. Excellent first step, commanded double teams, penetrated the back field constantly, held up vs the run and provided excellent pass rush on the interior. Knows how to use his arms. Knows how to swim. Knows how to bullrush to set up the swim. Good player.

Does he project to the Giants? I don't know. We like big long guys so your guess is as good as mine, but this guy stood out.

#83 From Georgia: Cornellius Washington
-6 4" 265 with 34" arms. Washington was a beast. He rushed the passer with a tremendous motor, very good get off, good moves, he plays with excellent leverage. Was disruptive all game long. He has a great long frame. Long arms. Great bull rush and speed rush. He's the complete package as far as I'm concerned. This is a guy who projects to the Giants bc he passes the height/weight/speed criteria we look for and he's an excellent pass rusher as well. This is a guy I would love on the Giants. He's definitely a DE we need to keep an eye on in rounds 2 or 3. Tremendous value and someone is getting a steal.

#57 From UCLA: Datone Jones
-6 4" 280 with 32" arms. Jones is a guy who I think has potential, but he doesn't fit the criteria of a Giants DLmen. He's squat with short arms. We like long rangy DLmen. He also doesn't have the greatest get off but he's a good player. Good leverage, disruptive, good motor. He made plays. I think he's a guy who will thrive on a different team in a different system. But he's not a Giant.

Scotty, I also checked out your boy Short. So far through 1 half I'm not impressed. Poor motor. He took plays off. Not very disruptive either. Got washed out of some run plays. His highlights through 2 quarters were 2 plays where he got doubled and 1 play where he made a play in the backfield. But he was largely invisible and I wasn't impressed.

Keep in mind I only saw the first half so far. But this is my analysis through 1 half. Let me know what you guys think.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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I think he had a more impactful 2nd half IIRC. I've soured on him after noticing his poor motor and reading up that it's been an issue for a while with him. Like the talent, but not a huge fan now.

Fallen to if he's there in the 3rd I'd take him, but not 1st 2 rounds really.

I like Jones, but you're right, not our "mold"
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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I don't want Teó. Too many potential distractions with him. I don't want a circus on our team.

Even if he's there in the 4th round, I'm not drafting him. There's just too much baggage for him to be worth it. Never really liked him all that much anyway. He's no Luke Keuchly that's for sure.
I don't know, he was getting a lot of top 5 talk just before the Alabama game by very respectable NFL.com analysts. Teams like the Giants make a living off of drafting fallers like Te'o since normally they would never get a shot at him. The interview process will likely make or break him, if he interviews well and the team likes his talent, I'd draft him knowing I'm getting a lot of value for my pick.
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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It's not a lot of value at our pick. Te'o was never going to go top 5 because he just doesn't have upside. He's a great college player and will play in the NFL for a long time if his head is on straight, but he's not dynamic enough at a less important position to be a must draft, especially when we have much more important needs to fill that the draft will be deep at.
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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If we're going LB in round 1, it'll be Oggletree. Then I'd assume we go DE or CB in round 2 if we stick with defense in the 2nd round.

Right now, the 3 LBs I'm scouting are Brown, Oggletree, and Minter. Oh and Hodges. So 4 guys. Te'o is off my board. Don't even want him in the 7th let alone the 1st.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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I have been looking at the first round and I think there will be excellent value available.

Looking at how it could shake down, I think we are likely looking at DE, DT, OL and CB in the first. They are likely to be the biggest needs at the premium positions.

There are plenty of LB options in rounds 2-4 who will be good options for us.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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If we're going LB in round 1, it'll be Oggletree. Then I'd assume we go DE or CB in round 2 if we stick with defense in the 2nd round.

Right now, the 3 LBs I'm scouting are Brown, Oggletree, and Minter. Oh and Hodges. So 4 guys. Te'o is off my board. Don't even want him in the 7th let alone the 1st.
I like Hodges too.

Other LBs I want to find out more on are Khaseem Greene, Zavier Gooden, Jamie Collins, Jelani Jenkins and Trevardo Williams
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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I like Hodges too.

Other LBs I want to find out more on are Khaseem Greene, Zavier Gooden, Jamie Collins, Jelani Jenkins and Trevardo Williams
You know what my biggest concern with Arthur Brown is?

He's a dwarf. Just like Khaseem. And I don't mind that and all, but we already have JWill, who's ironically bigger than both of them, and we need a MIKE to play next to him.

So those 2 guys, while I love what they bring, it's a hard sell for me right now. Brown has potential at MIKE so I'm still a fan, Khaseem is just a beast so I still like him, but I catch myself wanting Minter more.

I still have to scout Minter some before I can say that for sure. Hodges is a guy that intrigues me bc he looks almost as good as Brown on tape and he's bigger.

This is a great year for a 4-3 WILL. Gooden being another guy who fits that mold. But the problem is we already have one that we like who we plan on starting. So I'm looking for a MIKE to play next to them.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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I hope we don't draft Ogletree guy reminds of a less injury prone Gerris Wilkinson.

If we draft a LB I'd prefer to get Greene in round 2.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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Listen, Greene very well may be my FAVORITE Rutgers prospect. Let that sink in for a moment. Seriously. I will bet anything he's going to be a steal and super stud OLB for a team. A WILL. But sadly, we need a MLB. I love Khaseem more than anything, but am realistic about his skillset and I just don't see his best fit being as an MIKE, which we could use.

Now, a LB corps of Khaseem-Chase-JWill? Yeah, I'd be erect for days, but still
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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I don't see Ogletree as our MLB either... thus Greene is a MUCH better value in round 2. Although I will admit I have not seen much of him, I really don't get why Ogletree gets so hyped up over Greene though.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:03 PM    (permalink
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I don't see us talking a LB in the first.

I think we are more likely to look at guys like Khaseem Greene in the 2nd and/or Gerald Hodges in the 3rd.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:10 PM    (permalink
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Listen, Greene very well may be my FAVORITE Rutgers prospect. Let that sink in for a moment. Seriously. I will bet anything he's going to be a steal and super stud OLB for a team. A WILL. But sadly, we need a MLB. I love Khaseem more than anything, but am realistic about his skillset and I just don't see his best fit being as an MIKE, which we could use.

Now, a LB corps of Khaseem-Chase-JWill? Yeah, I'd be erect for days, but still
Greene is ideally a WLB, but with that said, I think he could possbly play MLB like a Vilma, Beason, Foster, Wagner etc in the right system where he can flow to the play.

you should bear in mind that we need to overhaul our LBs and ideally need more than one.

we could also put Greene at WLB and Williams at SLB (assuming Kiwi moves to DE) and bring in a vet at MLB or draft someone in later rounds to compete with Herzlich at Mike.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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Oggletree is rated higher than Greene for one simple reason: Ceiling.

I mean, that's what we always talk about right? Greene is high flow low ceiling. He is what he is. What you see is what you're going to get. Oggletree has elite physical tools and with some good coaching can be a terror in the NFL.

That's why he's a 1st round LB. To be a 1st round ILB (or OLB in 43) you have to have elite tools.

Do I feel he's better or will be better? I don't know yet. Haven't scouted him enough. But his tools make him a 1st round prospect.

Let's wait for the combine to put some final projections on these guys. I need to see official weights, sizes, and times.

I used to hate the combine but as I learned more about scouting I realized that the combine is just as important if not more important than the tape. You need to see how athleticism translates to the NFL.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, Oggletree has much more upside. He's also far more athletic than Greene is. That's the main reason. I think Green will be a good/solid LB, where as I think Ogletree can be a stud.
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