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Old 02-24-2013, 07:03 AM    (permalink
WCH
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Nice analysis of Montel Harris: http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2013/02/24...talking-about/

It also has a shout-out to Our Fave Stoner.

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Old 02-24-2013, 07:32 AM    (permalink
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I'm on the Christine Michael bandwagon.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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How about:

It doesn't matter.

The teams that win consistently in the NFL pour their resources into more important positions like QB, OL, DL, and CB. Look at the playoff teams every year. How many of them feature stud RBs? Most of the teams that last til the final eight in the divisional round have interchangeable free agent / late round RBs.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Monomach View Post
I'm on the Christine Michael bandwagon.
Similar to Frank Gore. He is a complete back, runs with authority and is tough as nails.

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Old 02-24-2013, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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Much more impressed with Knile Davis and Christine Michael. Still like Gio as my #1 back right now.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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Christine Michael, Zac Stacy, Eddie Lacy.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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I vote for Joseph Randle
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
How about:

It doesn't matter.

The teams that win consistently in the NFL pour their resources into more important positions like QB, OL, DL, and CB. Look at the playoff teams every year. How many of them feature stud RBs? Most of the teams that last til the final eight in the divisional round have interchangeable free agent / late round RBs.
Uhhh...just this past year:

Baltimore
San Francisco
New England
Seattle
Houston
Washington
Minnesota
~Atlanta

Green Bay is the only team that won a game without one.

And I'm changing my vote to Michael Ford. Great vision. I wasn't sure how he'd check out athletically, but he dominated.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
Uhhh...just this past year:

Baltimore
San Francisco
New England
Seattle
Houston
Washington
Minnesota
~Atlanta

Green Bay is the only team that won a game without one.

And I'm changing my vote to Michael Ford. Great vision. I wasn't sure how he'd check out athletically, but he dominated.
New England, Washington, and Atlanta have stud RB's?
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
Uhhh...just this past year:

Baltimore
San Francisco
New England
Seattle
Houston
Washington
Minnesota
~Atlanta

Green Bay is the only team that won a game without one.

And I'm changing my vote to Michael Ford. Great vision. I wasn't sure how he'd check out athletically, but he dominated.
I know you have Atlanta as questionable, but its not really even questionable, their running backs stunk. But overall, you make your point, the clear majority of playoff teams featured great running attacks.

Quote:
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New England, Washington, and Atlanta have stud RB's?
Studs similar to Peterson, no, but good backs nonetheless.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Much more impressed with Knile Davis and Christine Michael. Still like Gio as my #1 back right now.
I have always been impressed by Knile Davis' skill set. But can he hold onto the ball and stay healthy?

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Old 02-24-2013, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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Most RB's that put up great stats are a product of the offensive line. I would say NE, Atl, and Wash backs are serviceable. Nothing makes them stand out. They do their job. Which is fine.

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Old 02-24-2013, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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I'll go I with Bernard. Think he's got the complete package.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigaro View Post
I know you have Atlanta as questionable, but its not really even questionable, their running backs stunk. But overall, you make your point, the clear majority of playoff teams featured great running attacks.
I included Atlanta because they obviously make an effort to have a stud back(s) on their roster. Turner has fallen off, but they have him. Rodgers is up and down, but they have him.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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I like Zac Stacy's low center of gravity...kinda built like a MJD a little
Very important with more DB's diving into RB's ACL's these days.
Sadly, the answer to this question really depends on the injury factor, which is impossible to predict.
Willis McGahee & Marcus Lattimore can attest to that.
Ryan Williams as well.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:27 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
Uhhh...just this past year:

Baltimore
San Francisco
New England
Seattle
Houston
Washington
Minnesota
~Atlanta

Green Bay is the only team that won a game without one.

And I'm changing my vote to Michael Ford. Great vision. I wasn't sure how he'd check out athletically, but he dominated.
- Baltimore: Ray Rice, picked in the 2nd round (55th overall) of the 2008 NFL Draft.

- San Francisco: Frank Gore, picked in the 3rd round (65th overall) of the 2005 NFL Draft.

- New England: Stevan Ridley, picked in the 3rd round (73rd overall) of the 2011 NFL Draft.

- Seattle: Marshawn Lynch, acquired in trade by Seattle Seahawks for a fourth-round pick in 2011 and a fifth-round pick in 2012

- Houston: Arian Foster, signed as undrafted free agent in 2008

- Washington: Alfred Morris, picked in the 6th round (173rd overall) of the 2012 NFL Draft.

- Minnesota: Adrian Peterson, picked in the 1st round (7th overall) of the 2007 NFL Draft.

- Atlanta: Michael Turner, signed as free agent in 2008.

Basically speaking, the only real "stud" RB, as in a big-time RB that required valuable draft resources to acquire, is Adrian Peterson, and maybe Ray Rice, if you consider a 2nd round pick to be almost as valuable as a first rounder.

Every other back on these playoff teams was an interchangeable piece - either a free agent or a later round pick - that any team could find pretty easily and just plug and play into their offense.

My point is that you don't need a marquee back like Adrian Peterson to win in the playoffs. You need a good QB and a good team, and then you just target a RB in the later rounds (Frank Gore, Stevan Ridley, Alfred Morris) or sign a free agent (Arian Foster, Michael Turner) or trade for a guy using minimal resources (Marshawn Lynch).

You're kidding yourself if you think that these guys are indispensable to their team's offense. All of these guys are "plug and play" types that are easily replaceable. Do you think the NE offense would grind to a halt without Stevan Ridley? He just happens to be the back that Belichick is forced to put on the field. Do you think Matt Ryan would suddenly suck without Michael Turner? He just happens to be the back they decided to use after signing him in free agency. Do you think the San Francisco offense would suck without Frank Gore? Kaepernick would just as easily hand off to another 3rd round RB and that offense would be no less effective. Do you think Alfred Morris is really special? He fell to the 7th round for a reason, and the only reason he put up stats this year was entirely a product of the offensive system and those numbers could have been put up by any number of free agent or late round backs running behind RGIII and that offensive line.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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UCLA kid Franklin is pretty impressive at 4.49 and a ringing endorsement of Mora...also had a heck of a year.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:02 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
- Baltimore: Ray Rice, picked in the 2nd round (55th overall) of the 2008 NFL Draft.

- San Francisco: Frank Gore, picked in the 3rd round (65th overall) of the 2005 NFL Draft.

- New England: Stevan Ridley, picked in the 3rd round (73rd overall) of the 2011 NFL Draft.

- Seattle: Marshawn Lynch, acquired in trade by Seattle Seahawks for a fourth-round pick in 2011 and a fifth-round pick in 2012

- Houston: Arian Foster, signed as undrafted free agent in 2008

- Washington: Alfred Morris, picked in the 6th round (173rd overall) of the 2012 NFL Draft.

- Minnesota: Adrian Peterson, picked in the 1st round (7th overall) of the 2007 NFL Draft.

- Atlanta: Michael Turner, signed as free agent in 2008.

Basically speaking, the only real "stud" RB, as in a big-time RB that required valuable draft resources to acquire, is Adrian Peterson, and maybe Ray Rice, if you consider a 2nd round pick to be almost as valuable as a first rounder.

Every other back on these playoff teams was an interchangeable piece - either a free agent or a later round pick - that any team could find pretty easily and just plug and play into their offense.

My point is that you don't need a marquee back like Adrian Peterson to win in the playoffs. You need a good QB and a good team, and then you just target a RB in the later rounds (Frank Gore, Stevan Ridley, Alfred Morris) or sign a free agent (Arian Foster, Michael Turner) or trade for a guy using minimal resources (Marshawn Lynch).

You're kidding yourself if you think that these guys are indispensable to their team's offense. All of these guys are "plug and play" types that are easily replaceable. Do you think the NE offense would grind to a halt without Stevan Ridley? He just happens to be the back that Belichick is forced to put on the field. Do you think Matt Ryan would suddenly suck without Michael Turner? He just happens to be the back they decided to use after signing him in free agency. Do you think the San Francisco offense would suck without Frank Gore? Kaepernick would just as easily hand off to another 3rd round RB and that offense would be no less effective. Do you think Alfred Morris is really special? He fell to the 7th round for a reason, and the only reason he put up stats this year was entirely a product of the offensive system and those numbers could have been put up by any number of free agent or late round backs running behind RGIII and that offensive line.
No one's projecting these RBs to go in the first round... We're predicting who will be the best from this draft. There's no question that the value of the position has declined, but that doesn't mean you don't need a good one.

The teams I listed don't have JAGs at RB, and it matters. Clearly. The Packers have a JAG and BJGE is a high-end JAG (had never fumbled until this past year). Of the other two teams not listed, Willis McGahee and Moreno are far from JAGs. One is on the downside of his career and the other is starting to take off. Both former first round picks. And the Colts sure ******* wish they didn't have a JAG at RB. Only Green Bay managed to win a game.

New England wouldn't miss Ridley that much, but that's only because they've got 3 other RBs that are also very good in Boldin, Vereen, and Woodhead. To say Belichick was "forced" to use Ridley is just ridiculous. Ridley beat out 3 good backs and forced The Law Firm out of town. New England has had a lot of success finding RBs lately.

Minnesota would be nothing without AD. Houston would be completely lost without Foster. Teams would just be able to sit back in Dime if Atlanta didn't have Turner, even if he is rapidly declining. It takes a certain skill set to run the ball in Shanahan's offense. Seattle would have really struggled without Lynch. He had so many huge runs that were a product of him being awesome (and let's not forget about the "Hold My Dick" TD). And, no, the 49ers offense would not have run so smoothly without Frank Gore. They would have struggled quite a bit with a JAG at RB. Same with Baltimore, who has two very good RBs that were highly regarded coming into the league.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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If you put Lacy on Washington or Houston, would this really be a question?

Scheme, along with surrounding talent, will make or break any of these guys.

No AP type. No Trent Richardson.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:40 AM    (permalink
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If you put Lacy on Washington or Houston, would this really be a question?

Scheme, along with surrounding talent, will make or break any of these guys.

No AP type. No Trent Richardson.
Situation is the most important part. Followed by character. The player has to want to play to his ability. I don't know how some of these backs in the NFL can be satisfied running behind piss-poor offensive lines. Funny they don't pull a TO and start griping. But that's the NFL. I would rather have Alfred Morris than Chris Johnson because Morris plays for more than his "big contract". Fans should appreciate players like that. Frank Gore could have fallen off a long time ago.
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nepg View Post
No one's projecting these RBs to go in the first round... We're predicting who will be the best from this draft. There's no question that the value of the position has declined, but that doesn't mean you don't need a good one.

The teams I listed don't have JAGs at RB, and it matters. Clearly. The Packers have a JAG and BJGE is a high-end JAG (had never fumbled until this past year). Of the other two teams not listed, Willis McGahee and Moreno are far from JAGs. One is on the downside of his career and the other is starting to take off. Both former first round picks. And the Colts sure ******* wish they didn't have a JAG at RB. Only Green Bay managed to win a game.
All of those guys with the exception of Adrian Peterson are easily (mid / late round pick or free agent) replaceable. That's the definition we're looking for here - how replaceable are they?

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New England wouldn't miss Ridley that much, but that's only because they've got 3 other RBs that are also very good in Boldin, Vereen, and Woodhead. To say Belichick was "forced" to use Ridley is just ridiculous. Ridley beat out 3 good backs and forced The Law Firm out of town. New England has had a lot of success finding RBs lately.
Exactly. Ridley just happens to be the RB soaking up the yards. But Belichick could replace him with ease in a heartbeat and the offense wouldnt skip a beat.

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Minnesota would be nothing without AD.
Where are they even with Adrian Peterson? The only real playoff success they've had in the Peterson era has been when Brett Favre was throwing like an MVP on their team.

Quote:
Houston would be completely lost without Foster.
This is a ridiculous statement. They've even proven as much when they play guys like Ben Tate who produce similar numbers to Foster in the same offense. The RB is a product of the OL in their system and nearly anybody can have similar success to Foster on that team. And again, as good as Foster has been, it's been the defense (DL and DBs) that has made them a playoff team lately. In 2009 Foster had his best season and they were a .500 team. Put nearly any RB on that team and they still win the division because of the DEFENSE and more important positions I listed.

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Teams would just be able to sit back in Dime if Atlanta didn't have Turner, even if he is rapidly declining.
This is a joke, right? ANY BACK can do what Turner does in that offense. Turner is one of the slowest most easily replaceable bacsk in the NFL. He just gives them 2-3 yards a pop as a change-up. Matt Ryan throwing to WRs and Tony Gonzalez is the core of the offense and it would be the same, and probably even better, if they just stuck any mid/late round guy or free agent back there. I think they were better every time they handed off to Jacquizz Rodgers, actually, if you look at the stats from last season.

Turner was cut recently. Watch the offense stay as explosive, or even IMPROVE next year when Ryan hands off to Rodgers or some other random RB.

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It takes a certain skill set to run the ball in Shanahan's offense.
A skillset called "one cut and go" that like 80% of college RBs that you can find in the 3rd-7th round have. There's a reason that Shanahan has turned like 26529062 late round RBs into 1500 yard rushers.

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Seattle would have really struggled without Lynch.
If they didn't have Lynch, they would have just traded 4th round picks for someone else or drafted a guy with that 4th round pick. And he would have produced similar numbers or slightly less, and that defense and that awesome QB would have put them right into the playoffs just as easily.

Again, Seattle acquired Lynch for a pair of 4th round picks. That's the definition of "replaceable". If it wasn't Lynch, they would have just found some other cheap easy way to get a RB for their offense. No need to get a stud RB with a first round pick.


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And, no, the 49ers offense would not have run so smoothly without Frank Gore. They would have struggled quite a bit with a JAG at RB. Same with Baltimore, who has two very good RBs that were highly regarded coming into the league.
The point of all this is to show that these guys like Gore and Rice are good, but look at how they were acquired: 3rd and 2nd round picks. That's the definition of "replaceable". If THEY were acquired without a first round pick, then why would SF or BAL ever need to spend a first round pick to replace their production if they were suddenly unavailable? Hence "replaceable".

And in the case of Gore, again, there's an average RB running behind the best offensive line in football. I guarantee you that the 49ers could stick nearly anyone back there and receieve similar levels of production.

And was it Ray Rice that took the Ravens on that magical playoff run? I thought I remember seeing some gangly 6'6" guy constantly making big plays in the passing game downfield when they were winning all those games, and some big 300 lbs guys on the defensive line shutting people down in the playoffs. I also remember seeing some 3rd round pick named Bernanrd Pierce who was actually producing more yards than Ray Rice in that SAME OFFENSE in the playoffs.

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Old 02-25-2013, 07:17 AM    (permalink
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Bernard Pierce in the regular season in 2012:

108 attempts
532 yards
4.93 yards per attempt


Ray Rice in the 2012 regular season:

257 attempts
1143 yards
4.45 yards per attempt


Bernard Pierce in the 2012 playoffs:

39 attempts
202 yards
5.18 yards per attempt

Ray Rice in the 2012 playoffs:

84 attempts
306 yards
3.64 yards per attempt



They could literally have played a random 3rd round pick (Pierce) instead of Rice and probably have had a better ground game all year and in the playoffs.

The RB is completely replaceable and GMs that spend high draft picks on them, no matter how "great' are fools.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:11 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
- Baltimore: Ray Rice, picked in the 2nd round (55th overall) of the 2008 NFL Draft.

- San Francisco: Frank Gore, picked in the 3rd round (65th overall) of the 2005 NFL Draft.

- New England: Stevan Ridley, picked in the 3rd round (73rd overall) of the 2011 NFL Draft.

- Seattle: Marshawn Lynch, acquired in trade by Seattle Seahawks for a fourth-round pick in 2011 and a fifth-round pick in 2012

- Houston: Arian Foster, signed as undrafted free agent in 2008

- Washington: Alfred Morris, picked in the 6th round (173rd overall) of the 2012 NFL Draft.

- Minnesota: Adrian Peterson, picked in the 1st round (7th overall) of the 2007 NFL Draft.

- Atlanta: Michael Turner, signed as free agent in 2008.

Basically speaking, the only real "stud" RB, as in a big-time RB that required valuable draft resources to acquire, is Adrian Peterson, and maybe Ray Rice, if you consider a 2nd round pick to be almost as valuable as a first rounder.

Every other back on these playoff teams was an interchangeable piece - either a free agent or a later round pick - that any team could find pretty easily and just plug and play into their offense.

My point is that you don't need a marquee back like Adrian Peterson to win in the playoffs. You need a good QB and a good team, and then you just target a RB in the later rounds (Frank Gore, Stevan Ridley, Alfred Morris) or sign a free agent (Arian Foster, Michael Turner) or trade for a guy using minimal resources (Marshawn Lynch).

You're kidding yourself if you think that these guys are indispensable to their team's offense. All of these guys are "plug and play" types that are easily replaceable. Do you think the NE offense would grind to a halt without Stevan Ridley? He just happens to be the back that Belichick is forced to put on the field. Do you think Matt Ryan would suddenly suck without Michael Turner? He just happens to be the back they decided to use after signing him in free agency. Do you think the San Francisco offense would suck without Frank Gore? Kaepernick would just as easily hand off to another 3rd round RB and that offense would be no less effective. Do you think Alfred Morris is really special? He fell to the 7th round for a reason, and the only reason he put up stats this year was entirely a product of the offensive system and those numbers could have been put up by any number of free agent or late round backs running behind RGIII and that offensive line.
Basically every good RB not in a Shanahan offense was taken in the top 3 rounds. YOu seem to be defeating your own point.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:17 AM    (permalink
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Basically every good RB not in a Shanahan offense was taken in the top 3 rounds. YOu seem to be defeating your own point.
3rd round and later picks (Gore, Morris, Ridley) and free agents (Foster, Turner) and trades that were made with 4th round picks (Lynch)..

Those are not premium resources. Those are dime-a-dozen resources that you could use once again very easily to replace these guys.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:27 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
3rd round and later picks (Gore, Morris, Ridley) and free agents (Foster, Turner) and trades that were made with 4th round picks (Lynch)..

Those are not premium resources. Those are dime-a-dozen resources that you could use once again very easily to replace these guys.
Turner was a big money free agent, not a cheap pick up off the streets. THat's valuable resources.

Top starting backs in the league

1st rounders -
Petersen,Lynch,Spiller,Johnson,Bush,Richardson,Mar tin,Mendenhall(kind of sucks now, but was effective for a time), Williams/Stewart,Mcfadden,Mcgahee,S.Jackson,Matthews

2nd rounders - Forte,Rice,Mccoy,RIdley,MJD,Charles

3rd rounders - Gore,Murray

4th - Sproles

beyond - Morris,FOster - Funky Shanahan system, BJGE and maybe Bradshaw(not sure if he'll start somewhere again),TUrner(done for, big money free agent when he signed).

Guys like Lynch,Foster and Turner all god paid big contacts, which means teams invested valuable resources in them.

You want a good starting RB, you take one in the top 3 rounds and/or pay them big money. Sure, there are exceptions, but its about the same odds as you put on Ziggy Ansah in the other thread.
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