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Old 02-24-2013, 02:52 PM    (permalink
JordanTaber
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Originally Posted by SunTzu_22 View Post
Not very impressive when you look at it this way:
If you take away his 20+ yds runs its just 1800 yards...
And if you then take away his runs between 10 and 20 yards, he only ran for like 1257 yards....
And if you then take away his 5 to 10 yard runs we are down to just 488 yards rushing.......
And if you then take away his runs shorter than 5 yards, we are down to 0 yards rushing..... (Coincidentally the same number of points Barry Sanders scored if we, you know, take away the touchdowns he scored.)

And if we only take into account the times Sanders got tackled for a loss, he actually ran for -210 yards that year. He must suck right? Right....?
Furthermore Brett Lorenzo Favre never threw an interception, except for the 336 he actually did throw.

Every time I see someone make the "Well if you take his best plays away, he actually wasn´t very good"-argument I want to punt kittens. So congrats OP, if a kitten gets punted somewhere in the world today, you might very well be responsible.

/ End rant.

Actually, without the 20+ yard runs that year, it drops to under 1290 yards.

I knew right away people weren't going to get the real point behind, "take these away," despite how many times I acknowledged they do count.

My point is not that they don't count. My point is that in the grand scheme of things, big plays in a running game are a bonus. Even the the best big play runner - Barry Sanders - pales in comparison to even a decent passing game in generating big plays. If it's big plays you're looking for, throw the football.

The main objective of running the football is to consistently gain yardage. That's where Barry Sanders irritates me to no end. It's easy to sit there and say, "oh, look at the production...how can that be bad? So what if he had a bunch of carries for loss?"

But then when you get into the actual flow of a game, and you're trying to decide what to do on offense, and you opt to hand it off to Mr. 5.3 yards/carry, and he mixes in a 22 yard run with 7 other carries for 10 yards in the first half, and you fail to convert on 3rd and long, it's another matter.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:56 PM    (permalink
Monomach
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
I tried the waffle and chicken lays today, not bad, not great, but not bad.
Do they taste like chicken and waffles?

Don't know why I'm asking. I've never had chicken and waffles. :shrug:
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wogitalia View Post
Which means he had 2,726 rushes for positive yardage that gained 16,221 yards or perhaps more importantly, 90% of the rushes he attempted were for positive yardage. I'd say that knowing you can hand off to a guy knowing he will gain you yards 9 out of 10 times is pretty damn good.
You forgot about no gain.

Then there are all the 1 and 2 yard gains, which are usually better for the defense than they are the offense...especially in certain situations.

Again: The big plays count, and so do the losses.

I already demonstrated what his numbers look like in comparison to other backs when you factor out the big plays for everyone involved. If two backs are relatively close in that situation, I'd take the big play guy, obviously.

But if the difference is significant, I want the consistent runner. I want 2nd and 6 or 3rd and 4, I don't want 2nd and 10 or 3rd and 12.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
You forgot about no gain.

Then there are all the 1 and 2 yard gains, which are usually better for the defense than they are the offense...especially in certain situations.

Again: The big plays count, and so do the losses.

I already demonstrated what his numbers look like in comparison to other backs when you factor out the big plays for everyone involved. If two backs are relatively close in that situation, I'd take the big play guy, obviously.

But if the difference is significant, I want the consistent runner. I want 2nd and 6 or 3rd and 4, I don't want 2nd and 10 or 3rd and 12.
Do you prefer cake or pie?
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Like AD, Sanders too often did all the heavy lifting for the Lions offense. They weren't competitive on that side of the football when he wasn't in the game.

BTW I've always heard that Sanders WANTED a fullback, not the other way around.

You go ahead and question Sanders' vision. I as a football fan can't in all seriousness. Way more often than not, whatever Sanders did once he had the ball in his hands was the right thing to do at the time, and no one else in the game could do what he did.

To me what you're doing is the equivalent of knocking a hypothetical QB who only completes 53% of his passes, but still throws for 38 TDs/10 Ints and over 4K yards.

Maybe you wouldn't coach a RB to run the way Barry did. The fact is you can't coach any RB to be Barry Sanders.

Also I don't think people devalue what Emmitt Smith accomplished simply because he played behind a great Oline. When people compare Emmitt/Barry, it's more to acknowledge that Sanders was quicker, faster, more elusive and played in a less statistically advantageous situation in Detroit compared to Dallas.

Your argument is disingenuously provocative, but to say you would NEVER WANT BARRY SANDERS ON MY TEAM is trolling.

From 1994-1998, Sanders averaged over 1600 yards rushing per season.
I guess over that 5 year time window every RB who ever played in the NFL was preferable to Sanders??

You're asking people not to take you seriously.
I didn't say that. I already said I'd take Sanders over, say, Derek Loville.

He wouldn't be a back I'd want in general, though.

That QB you're talking about:

1. Would obviously have a much better big play ratio per dropback than Sanders would have per carry.

2. Could easily be Jeff George.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
Why I Would Never Want Barry Sanders On My Team: because I hate good players and want my team to lose.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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1 negative play in 10 doesn't seem particularly outlandish. I'd venture a guess that most running backs are in that general vicinity. The fact that Barry Sanders has so many carries probably doesn't help his numbers.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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Larry Allen, a 1st ballot HOFer and one of the gretest OL ever, was in his prime in the late 90s. He was a 1st team All-Pro every year from 1996-2001. Erik Williams was All-Pro in 1996 and a Pro Bowler in 96, 97 and 99 when Emmitt was in decline.

Sanders lost his most decorated lineman in Lomas Brown (6 Pro Bowls) to free agency in 1996, then led the NFL in rushing for the next two seasons including his historic 1997 season of 2.053 yds and 6.1ypc.

And if you really want to compare how Sanders would do compared to another HOFer behind the same offensive line then Thurman Thomas is a good comparison. I know its college, but the comparison is between two elite players on the same team behind the same OL, just 1 year apart.

Thomas 1987 – Oklahoma State
11 games
1,613 yards
17 touchdowns

Add on the 157 yds and 4TDs in the Sun Bowl to get 1,770 yds and 21TDs.

Sanders 1988 – Oklahoma State
11 games
2,628 yards
39 touchdowns

Add on the 222 yds and 5 TDs in 3 qtrs of the Holiday Bowl to get 2,850 yds and 44 TDs in 12 games. Sanders had 1,080 more yds and 23 more TDs in 12 games compared to another future HOF RB.

Thomas played 4 seasons at Oklahoma St, was a starter for 3 seasons and finished with 4,595 yds rushing and scored 44 career touchdowns. Sanders alone scored 44 TDs in ONE SEASON if you include the 1988 Holiday Bowl.

And Thomas ain’t no chump. He was a league MVP, Offensive Player of the Year, has 5 All-Pros (2 1st team) and was a 2nd ballot HOFer.

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Old 02-24-2013, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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I saw both players for their entire careers and while Emmitt was a great player and a deserved 1st ballot HOFer, Barry Sanders was simply in a class by himself.

They didn’t exactly have a level playing field yet Sanders still consistently outperformed Emmitt with far less talent around him. Smith was driving a Ferrari while Sanders in comparison was driving a Ford. If Barry had the same good fortune to land on a winning program like Jerry Rice or Emmitt he would have put records so far out of sight they would be untouchable.

Stop Sanders and most of the time you stopped Detroit. Dallas even tried that in the ’91 playoffs and got crushed when Erik Kramer had the game of his life. Smith was just one of the main cogs on a great team, a well-oiled machine. Roger Craig and Franco Harris were also main cogs in great teams too and have won 3 and 4 rings respectively yet aren’t anywhere near as good a player as Emmitt. So using the ring argument is weak. Great teams win championships and Smith, Craig and Harris were part of dynastys surrounded by HOF QBs, HOF WRs, great OLs (Dallas were a Top 3 unit all-time) and great defenses (maybe the greatest ever in Harris’ case). Emmitt also had Pro Bowlers in Jay Novacek and Moose Johnston blocking for him while Barry was the lone back for most of his career. Barry also never had a franchise QB to balance the offense while Emmitt had a HOFer in Troy Aikman. That was crucial because defenses could afford to key on Barry more than they could vs Emmitt and force the likes of Gagliano, Peete, Ware and Mitchell to beat them through the air.

Lets compare their offensive teammates.

Barry’s 10 seasons: (15,269yds and 5.0 ypc)
13 career Pro Bowls among 3 players – Moore and 2 OL (Brown and Glover).
6 Pro Bowls from Lomas Brown (who never went to the Pro Bowl in the 4 seasons before Barry was drafted. What people forget also is that Brown moved to Arizona in 1996 as a free agent, a year BEFORE Barry’s 2,053, 6.1 season). So Barry loses his best lineman and someone who went to 6 of the 13 Pro Bowls of Barry’s teammates and he still rushes for over 2,000.
0 Pro Bowls from the QBs
4 1st team All-Pros among 2 players – Moore (3) and Brown (1)

Emmitt’s first 10 seasons: (13,963yds and 4.3 ypc)
40 career Pro Bowls among 10 players (6 of them on the OL)
22 career Pro Bowls alone from those 6 Offensive Linemen.
6 Pro Bowls from the QBs
10 1st team All-Pros among 5 players
8 of those All-Pros between 3 OL – Larry Allen, Erik Williams and Nate Newton).

By 1995, the year Emmitt led the league in rushing yards, rushing touchdowns, yards from scrimmage and total touchdowns, he was playing behind four Pro Bowl linemen and the fifth was a four-time Pro Bowler in the prime of his career. His tight end, a strong blocker, would make the Pro Bowl for the fifth straight season, too. His fullback had made the Pro Bowl the prior two seasons, and only missed it in ’95 because Larry Centers had 101 receptions that season.

So Smith was playing with an insane seven Pro Bowl caliber blockers that season, in addition to having a HOF QB and HOF WR on his team, too. Only one player in the starting eleven — WR2 Kevin Williams — would not make a Pro Bowl in his career. In fact, the ’95 Cowboys had 10 offensive players who would make 55 Pro Bowls in their career, the most in NFL history.

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Old 02-24-2013, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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Hey Jordan, can you give us a list of running backs throughout NFL history that would you rather have than Barry Sanders?
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Gee, thanks a lot for putting your replies inside the quote box like a douche...

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Originally Posted by hockey619 View Post
depending on what team you are. some teams use the run as a safer method of gaining positive yards and making big plays, or masking the fact that their QB blows massive donkey nuts..
Yes, some teams do that. But if you do that, your offense is going to be mediocre at best, regardless.

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unless your qb blows and rb is a boss at ripping off big plays. but shhh i dont want to hear logic that goes against my poorly orchestrated argument
"Like a boss?" Oh, look out...we've got a hip hop club hopper here.

You can't build an offense around a running back, much less one who "is a boss" at ripping off big plays, but isn't reliable as far as gaining good yardage on a per carry basis.


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true. but what if you have a monster RB and a ****ty passing game? might have to adjust hmm what oh what will we do?
Get a better quarterback so you can have a better offense, then get a running back who can actually compliment a passing game.


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ponder threw for 6.08 yards per attempt. i can throw at stats too. what the hell was the point of this paragraph? to show us that passing gets more yards per attempt? really?! what does this have to do with barry sanders? nice work, excellent use of your time.
5.34 net yards per pass attempt. Peterson beat him out decisively in that average. This is a rare instance where a passing game is so bad a big play back is actually a better option for making big plays.


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it certainly is if you have an atrocious passing game and the running game becomes your whole offense. like peterson had to deal with. and barry.
If you have a passing game that isn't great, that's all the more reason to get a running back who can consistently gain quality yardage to shorten the yardage the passing game needs to get to pick up first downs so that the offense can move the sticks and hope to win defensive battles.

Now, if you're one of the absolute worst passing attacks in the league and can't make any big plays in the passing game, then yeah...maybe you want the all-or-nothing runner, because your offense is going to suck regardless, and the back could actually be more effective than the passing game.

But anyone trying to actually build an offense would build the offense around the passing game (unless they're an idiot). And when you do that, you want the running game to compliment the passing game.

If I've got Steve Young, Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Brent Jones, I want nothing to do with Barry Sanders. Give me Ricky Watters.

If I've got Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin, give me Emmitt Smith, don't give me Barry Sanders.

If I've got Jay Fielder and Chris Chambers and a good defense, give me Ricky Williams pre-retirement.

Now, if I've got Ryan Leaf and Mikhael Ricks...OK, give me Barry Sanders.



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its just a shame barry actually made those runs which totally ruins my argument =(
It's just a shame you don't understand what my argument even is.


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if youre subtracting the big runs, why are you keeping the negative runs that are hurting barrys average? if youre going to take away the gains from his running style then why not take away the negatives too? is that too much work or is it because it would completely ruin your argument?
I'm not taking them away - I'm saying they are a bonus, to be factored in after you look at what he does on the majority of his carries. 16 runs out of 314 total carries - that's a minority of carries...a relative rarity. A much more common rarity than any other back in his day, but a rarity nonetheless.

The negative plays were about 3 times more common than the 20+ yard plays.


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these last two paragraphs are phenomenal. so again passing the ball makes bigger plays? no way!!! oh **** vince lombardi tell me more! and if scott mitchell was going to give you more big plays...THAN WHY DIDNT HE? WHY DIDNT THE COACHING STAFF HAVE HIM THROW MORE INSTEAD OF GIVING THE BALL TO THAT SLOUCH OF A RB BEHIND HIM? ILL TELL YOU WHY ITS BECAUSE HE SUCKED HORRIBLY AND THEY KNEW IT.
It's hilarious how badly you miss the entire point.

Scott Mitchell is irrelevant in this discussion. Barry Sanders was an all-or-nothing running back, period...and that would be what he was whether he played with Steve Young, Scott Mitchell, or Babe Laufenberg.

Mitchell wasn't good, but he wasn't so bad that the Lions needed to feed Sanders the ball and set up 3rd and 13 for him. Mitchell could convert a 3rd and 5, especially when you give him Herman Moore, Johnnie Morton, and Brett Perriman in a variation of the run and shoot. The game can be managed for mediocre quarterbacks.

If the 49ers had Barry Sanders instead of Frank Gore, Alex Smith would've been holding the clipboard years ago.


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no hes the reason youre not losing 24 to 0. see how i stated something based on no factual information at all that supported barry? just like you stated something with no basis bashing him. excellent work.
Except he's not. That's not how he performed. If Barry did manage to break one early, the Lions would be in the lead. They went where he did, because they hitched their wagons to his all-or-nothing style. The result was 9-7 season after 9-7 season.

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he lost yardage on about 10% of his plays, but also broke huge plays on close to that number as well. as for your situation you made...how often did this happen? rarely? ever? show some supporting evidence because right now i see none, all i see are baseless remarks and hypotheticals not based in reality.
Between 1991 and 1998, Sanders had 113 20+ yard carries out of 2527 rushing attempts, which comes to 4.5%.

4.5% isn't close to 10%.

As to how often it happened...I watched plenty of Lions games when Sanders played. At the time, I initially bought into the hype. "Oh, this is going to be so exciting, Barry Sanders is playing." Sanders is exciting to watch on highlights, but in the actual games, it was painful to watch. He was soft, he constantly danced until defenders disengaged from blocks and corralled him for losses or no/minimal game, and perhaps worst of all...the most elusive player in the game, by a landslide, was rarely a factor as a receiver out of the backfield. How do you justify that one? There's no offensive line to blame there...just a running back who tries to do too much, even in space.

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and then they brought in a fullback and he went for two thousand yards? remember that part too?
Who are we talking about, Vardell? He was still only used about half the time. The Lions were big on 2 TE sets in 1997.


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first run: dodges hit in the backfield and gains about 5. but barry never gained medium yardage he was just a homerun guy!!!
This is exactly why the Sanders sycophants irritate me to no end. There's no hit in the backfield to dodge if Sanders doesn't abandon the lead block and cut back against the grain into the backside of the formation.

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second run: bounces outside and gets 8. but but but! this isnt fair, he only gets homeruns and loses otherwise hes useless!
Yeah, but not until he forces his tight end to nearly get called for holding because he doesn't bounce it fast enough. I suppose you could argue he was setting up the linebacker, but he probably didn't need to since he was faster than most guys to the corner.


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or there was backside pressure and no hole and the defense strung it out and stuffed him by doing there jobs very well. but hey lets blame barry because it fits my case!
A good runner will work to get back to the line of scrimmage when he sees the defense has the outside contained. Not Barry, though. He could have stuck it between the LT and the H-back and gotten back to the LOS, but he instead chooses to bounce it and lose 2.


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4th run: met in the backfield by two guys but makes a move and gets one. but its not his olines fault they missed those two guys they cheated wahh my argument is falling apart!
1. You apparently don't know what the "backfield" is, like most Sanders fans.

2. Yeah, it's the o-line's fault the fullback failed on a cut block. Barry's the one who chose to bounce it outside when he had a clear running lane off left guard and the LOLB immediately jumps outside. Even if the fullback had made that block, Sanders made the wrong decision.

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5th run: big hole on a draw and barry makes them pay with a 15 or so gain. nice move and tackle break to get a few more. oop you didnt mention this run either hmmm i wonder why? because it didnt fit your **** argument
?

Barry (finally) hit a hole and gained big yards, and made some people miss because he was the most elusive running back the NFL has seen over the past few decades? Yeah, I'd better address that, because it totally makes sense for me to do that.

Too bad that run came on 3rd down and he was short of the first.


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7th run: uh oh, well blocked up and barry goes for 8. oh no my argument is melting, melting...
Hole's not plugged up at all. Sanders, for once, shows the patience to allow the blocking to develop, then hits the hole. The right guard peels off on the filling linebacker, the center makes a crushing pancake block, and Sanders hits the hole. Perfect execution.


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This is pathetic. you intentionally left out positive plays and wrote only of the plays that supported your argument, and even then twisted them to see what you wanted.

this is akin to a scientist removing the samples that dont support his theory. never neg repped anyone but this is an absolutely pathetic argument cant believe i wasted twenty minutes reading this crap.
Yeah, gee, why wouldn't I talk at great length about the positive plays when illustrating the situations in which he hurt the offense?

Yeah, that would totally make sense. It would make about as much sense as someone arguing that school shootings are rare and then talking at great length about every school shooting he could find in history and how devastating they were, as opposed to talking about all the more prevalent issues/risks.

Everybody knows Sanders had his share of positive runs. He wouldn't have the huge cumulative numbers he does if he didn't. Sometimes his all-or-nothing running style worked. But it wasn't worth the tradeoff to the offense, because it failed and hurt the offense on plays far more often than it worked, and the big plays he made just weren't enough to make up for it to the degree in which he's some sort of all-time great running back and someone I'd want running the ball in my offense, which would be built around the passing game. You know, that thing that is responsible for all the truly great offenses throughout history.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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Actually, without the 20+ yard runs that year, it drops to under 1290 yards.
I just put out completely random numbers. Just trying to prove a point. Couldn´t care less what Barry Sanders numbers would´ve been like without his 20 yard runs.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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Stop Sanders and most of the time you stopped Detroit. Dallas even tried that in the ’91 playoffs and got crushed when Erik Kramer had the game of his life.

Smith was just one of the main cogs on a great team, a well-oiled machine. Roger Craig and Franco Harris were also main cogs in great teams too and have won 3 and 4 rings respectively yet aren’t anywhere near as good a player as Emmitt. So using the ring argument is weak. Great teams win championships and Smith, Craig and Harris were part of dynastys surrounded by HOF QBs, HOF WRs, great OLs (Dallas were a Top 3 unit all-time) and great defenses (maybe the greatest ever in Harris’ case). Emmitt also had Pro Bowlers in Jay Novacek and Moose Johnston blocking for him while Barry was the lone back for most of his career. Barry also never had a franchise QB to balance the offense while Emmitt had a HOFer in Troy Aikman. That was crucial because defenses could afford to key on Barry more than they could vs Emmitt and force the likes of Gagliano, Peete, Ware and Mitchell to beat them through the air.

Lets compare their offensive teammates.

Barry’s 10 seasons: (15,269yds and 5.0 ypc)
13 career Pro Bowls among 3 players – Moore and 2 OL (Brown and Glover).
6 Pro Bowls from Lomas Brown (who never went to the Pro Bowl in the 4 seasons before Barry was drafted. What people forget also is that Brown moved to Arizona in 1996 as a free agent, a year BEFORE Barry’s 2,053, 6.1 season). So Barry loses his best lineman and someone who went to 6 of the 13 Pro Bowls of Barry’s teammates and he still rushes for over 2,000.
0 Pro Bowls from the QBs
4 1st team All-Pros among 2 players – Moore (3) and Brown (1)

Emmitt’s first 10 seasons: (13,963yds and 4.3 ypc)
40 career Pro Bowls among 10 players (6 of them on the OL)
22 career Pro Bowls alone from those 6 Offensive Linemen.
6 Pro Bowls from the QBs
10 1st team All-Pros among 5 players
8 of those All-Pros between 3 OL – Larry Allen, Erik Williams and Nate Newton).

By 1995, the year Emmitt led the league in rushing yards, rushing touchdowns, yards from scrimmage and total touchdowns, he was playing behind four Pro Bowl linemen and the fifth was a four-time Pro Bowler in the prime of his career. His tight end, a strong blocker, would make the Pro Bowl for the fifth straight season, too. His fullback had made the Pro Bowl the prior two seasons, and only missed it in ’95 because Larry Centers had 101 receptions that season.

So Smith was playing with an insane seven Pro Bowl caliber blockers that season, in addition to having a HOF QB and HOF WR on his team, too. Only one player in the starting eleven — WR2 Kevin Williams — would not make a Pro Bowl in his career. In fact, the ’95 Cowboys had 10 offensive players who would make 55 Pro Bowls in their career, the most in NFL history.

A lot of those Cowboys linemen got into those Pro Bowls based on the hype surrounding the team in those days. They had the biggest offensive line in the NFL, and the media let the fans know all about it.

There's always been a misconception that "big = good," which again applied to overrated players like Leonard Davis and Andre Gurode making Pro Bowls a few years ago when the Cowboys were again being hyped for their big offensive line.

The reality is, Nate Newton and Mark Tuinei were in danger of being waived before Emmitt Smith emerged. Tuinei was a converted defensive lineman and an overachiever, and Newton was...well...a blob. Incredibly overrated.

Kevin Gogan was...a dirty blob.

Ray Donaldson was great in Indy, but he wasn't the same player when Dallas acquired him.

Erik Williams was impressive until the car accident. He was never the same upon returning...mediocre.

More importantly, the number one factor in the effectiveness of an offensive line is the scheme. The Cowboys didn't do anything special in that regard. It was straight-ahead, smash mouth, downhill stuff. I formation stuff. Pound it, pound it, throw to Irvin. Pound it, dump it off to Novacek, pound it on 3rd and short. Go up top to Harper, incomplete...hit Irvin, pound it again.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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Larry Allen, a 1st ballot HOFer and one of the gretest OL ever, was in his prime in the late 90s. He was a 1st team All-Pro every year from 1996-2001. Erik Williams was All-Pro in 1996 and a Pro Bowler in 96, 97 and 99 when Emmitt was in decline.

Sanders lost his most decorated lineman in Lomas Brown (6 Pro Bowls) to free agency in 1996, then led the NFL in rushing for the next two seasons including his historic 1997 season of 2.053 yds and 6.1ypc.

And if you really want to compare how Sanders would do compared to another HOFer behind the same offensive line then Thurman Thomas is a good comparison. I know its college, but the comparison is between two elite players on the same team behind the same OL, just 1 year apart.

Thomas 1987 – Oklahoma State
11 games
1,613 yards
17 touchdowns

Add on the 157 yds and 4TDs in the Sun Bowl to get 1,770 yds and 21TDs.

Sanders 1988 – Oklahoma State
11 games
2,628 yards
39 touchdowns

Add on the 222 yds and 5 TDs in 3 qtrs of the Holiday Bowl to get 2,850 yds and 44 TDs in 12 games. Sanders had 1,080 more yds and 23 more TDs in 12 games compared to another future HOF RB.

Thomas played 4 seasons at Oklahoma St, was a starter for 3 seasons and finished with 4,595 yds rushing and scored 44 career touchdowns. Sanders alone scored 44 TDs in ONE SEASON if you include the 1988 Holiday Bowl.

And Thomas ain’t no chump. He was a league MVP, Offensive Player of the Year, has 5 All-Pros (2 1st team) and was a 2nd ballot HOFer.
They both put up inhuman numbers at Oklahoma State. It was a wide open offense. Sanders obviously had more open field talent than Thomas.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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This is the worst thread ever.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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Oh, cool. Now we've got revisionist history telling us that the 90s Cowboys OL was garbage.

Well played. If I were taking this silliness seriously, I'd have a huge headache right now.

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Old 02-24-2013, 05:38 PM    (permalink
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Do they taste like chicken and waffles?

Don't know why I'm asking. I've never had chicken and waffles. :shrug:
I don't think so...but I've never had chicken and waffles either, so I don't really know...
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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Gee, thanks a lot for putting your replies inside the quote box like a douche...

Yeah, that would totally make sense. It would make about as much sense as someone arguing that school shootings are rare and then talking at great length about every school shooting he could find in history and how devastating they were, as opposed to talking about all the more prevalent issues/risks.
First, copy and paste really hard, I supersize. But secondly, and I might be off on this, but did JT sneak being pro-school shootings into that mountain of crazy?
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

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Old 02-24-2013, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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First, copy and paste really hard, I supersize. But secondly, and I might be off on this, but did JT sneak being pro-school shootings into that mountain of crazy?
Yeah, that's exactly what I did.

Did you eat paint chips as a baby?
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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Oh, cool. Now we've got revisionist history telling us that the 90s Cowboys OL was garbage.

Well played. If I were taking this silliness seriously, I'd have a huge headache right now.

I don't think you understand what the term, "revisionist history," means.
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:01 PM    (permalink
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they only case I can see JT making here, is that Barry wasn't consistently getting positive yardage and always dancing looking for the big gain. Not settling for the 3 yards and dust.

Sometimes keep pounding it and get 3/4 yards at a time and BAM!!1, you get a big gain eventually.

Or dance and tip toe and get big gains.

Also as Wog mentioned 9 out of 10 runs did end up as positive gains....though that is from comparing general career numbers and not counting every carry.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:24 PM    (permalink
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...I can tell I'm going to LOVE it when I get to the [BLEEP]ing 90's in my thread.

I will offer this though; If you had a team with Steve Young, Jerry Rice, and Brent Jones among others, which in other words means a West Coast offense, then you can live-and-die with the supposed 'sporadic' production Barry offered in the running game. The reason is the Running Back is typically a frequent receiver in those offenses, mostly in screen passes, but that's basically putting Barry out in the open field more often than not, which in turn makes him especially versatile and dangerous.

Granted, you wouldn't see him challenge 2000 yards rushing, but you'd easily see 2000 yards rushing/receiving combined.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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In the first half of his career, Barry was a typical boom-or-bust RB. In the second half of his career, he was one of the most efficient RBs in the NFL. He was smart, and he knew where the first down marker was. He knew that a two yard gain on 3rd and 8 wouldn't do jack for his team.

Go back and watch that youtube video from the '94 season. Barry knew where the first down marker was, and he'd fight like hell to get past it. I don't know how the crap you watch that game and think "I wouldn't want him on my team"

The Lions won that game, even though they were the inferior team.

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Old 02-24-2013, 08:44 PM    (permalink
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A lot of those Cowboys linemen got into those Pro Bowls based on the hype surrounding the team in those days. They had the biggest offensive line in the NFL, and the media let the fans know all about it.

There's always been a misconception that "big = good," which again applied to overrated players like Leonard Davis and Andre Gurode making Pro Bowls a few years ago when the Cowboys were again being hyped for their big offensive line.

The reality is, Nate Newton and Mark Tuinei were in danger of being waived before Emmitt Smith emerged. Tuinei was a converted defensive lineman and an overachiever, and Newton was...well...a blob. Incredibly overrated.

Kevin Gogan was...a dirty blob.

Ray Donaldson was great in Indy, but he wasn't the same player when Dallas acquired him.

Erik Williams was impressive until the car accident. He was never the same upon returning...mediocre.

More importantly, the number one factor in the effectiveness of an offensive line is the scheme. The Cowboys didn't do anything special in that regard. It was straight-ahead, smash mouth, downhill stuff. I formation stuff. Pound it, pound it, throw to Irvin. Pound it, dump it off to Novacek, pound it on 3rd and short. Go up top to Harper, incomplete...hit Irvin, pound it again.
Nearly everyone on the roster was in danger of getting waived when Jerry Jones bought the team, fired Tom Landry and hired Jimmy Johnson.

Don’t forget that in 1988 when Dallas were 3-13 Herschel Walker rushed for 1,514 yds and 5 TDs with a 4.2 ypc. Walker also added 53 catches for 505 yds. The OL featured a young Nate Newton and Kevin Gogan, 2 of the 6 Pro Bowlers on the OL during the 90s when Emmitt was the star. The other 3 starters that year - Dave Widell, Crawford Ker, Tom Rafferty. No Mark Stepnoski, no Larry Allen (HOF) and no Erik Williams, who was playing at a HOF level before his accident.

And why were the Cowboys 3-13? Their QBs were Steve Pelleur and Kevin Sweeney, not Troy Aikman. Michael Irvin was a rookie, Jay Novacek played for the Phoenix Cardinals and Moose Johnston was at Syracuse. The starting TE was someone called Thornton Chandler who had just 18 catches that season and 29 for his entire career. The defense were among the league's worst compared to the Top 5 unit they had in the 1990s. Emmitt was a great back but there's no doubt he was dealt a royal flush and landed in the right place at the right time.

Running backs, even the very good/great ones, are made to look better when they have a great OL. Don’t underestimate what a good OL can do for a team’s offence. Common sense says more holes are created for running backs and QBs have more time to throw. Take a look at Larry Johnson’s career before and after Roaf/Shields as a case study. LJ had seasons of 1,750-20td in 2005 and 1,789-17td a year later. In 2007 with Roaf and Shields retired he dropped to 559-3td and never rushed for 1,000 yds again.

Case study 2 is Shaun Alexander, who often went untouched into the endzone behind Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson. Once Hutch left for Minnesota in 2006 and Jones was past his prime Alexander’s numbers dropped off a cliff. Alexander had seasons of 1,435-14td, 1,696-16td and 1,880-27td from 2003-05. Hutch then departs for the Vikings and Alexander sinks to 896-7td in 2006 and never again runs for 1,000 yds.

When free agency began to tear apart the Dallas dynasty Emmitt’s numbers dropped off a cliff despite still having Larry Allen in his prime blocking for him. In 1995 Emmitt had 1,750 yds and 25td with a 4.7 ypc on the last of Dallas’ great teams. A year later the ypc had crashed to 3.7 and by 1997 it was a mediocre 4.1 while his rushing TDs had fallen from 25 to 12 to 4 in that 3-season span (95-97). When the Cowboys struggled in the late 90s Emmitt wasn’t able to lift his game even with a dominant Allen in his prime. Allen was a 1st team All-Pro every year from 1996-2001. Erik Williams was All-Pro in 1996 and a Pro Bowler in 96, 97 and 99 yet Emmitt continued to decline - his last NINE seasons: 0 All-Pros, 2 Pro Bowls, 0 rushing titles and a 3.9 ypc. Sanders was a 10-time Pro Bowler and 10-time All-Pro in 10 seasons and never had the QB and OL even remotely close to what Emmitt had surrounding him.

Case study 3: Even Marshall Faulk’s numbers before and after his Colts/Rams trade are a real eye-opener to what can happen when surrounded by talent.

Faulk’s early years as a runner with the Colts was an almighty struggle. Whereas Sanders was elite and All-Pro every season on a mediocre team Faulk didn’t quite find it quite as easy under similar circumstances in Indianapolis. During his 5 seasons at the Colts, Faulk’s yds per carry was a disappointing 3.8. His ypc in those 5 seasons in Indy were 4.1, 3.7, 3.0, 4.0 and 4.1. Peyton Manning was a rookie in Faulk’s 5th and last season in Indy and Faulk’s receiving numbers jumped from averaging 50-500 in his first 4 seasons to 86-908 with a franchise QB. Faulk also had 1,319 yds rushing with Manning compared to 1,054 yds the year before with Jim Harbaugh when the Colts were the worst team in the NFL.

As soon as Faulk goes to the Rams in 1999 that career 3.8 avg jumped to 5.5, 5.4 and 5.3 on the Greatest Show on Turf teams from 1999-2001. Obviously having another elite QB, two elite WRs and running behind an OL with future HOFer Orlando Pace in his prime opened up far more holes than the likes of Kipp Vickers, Tony Mandarich, Jason Mathews and Eric Mahlum ever could.

Why not ask the NFL players themselves.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...3700/index.htm

Based on a survey of 354 NFL players in 2004.

Who Is the Greatest Player You Ever Saw?

Barry Sanders 30%
Running Back, Lions

Walter Payton 20%
Running Back, Bears

Joe Montana 8%
Quarterback, 49ers-Chiefs

John Elway 7%
Quarterback, Broncos

FAST FACTS: Only one active player, Ravens CB Deion Sanders (fifth, 7%), was among the top eight vote-getters. He got 11% of the overall vote from defensive players…. Barry Sanders, who retired in 1998 at age 30, got 42% of the vote among players with eight or more years experience.

And that is greatest PLAYER, not just RB. Sanders got 42% of the vote from those vets who would've played against both. Emmitt didn’t even register.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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OMG someone just tried to say the 90s Cowboys didn't have an amazing and dominant OL. WTF? That group is possibly the best ever. Jesus Christ man. You have one of these threads once a month. You seem to spend a lot of energy coming up with **** like this.
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